Greenmachine vs Cellman OT arguments

cell_man said:

Gälk said:

Where do I get the best price to import or buy in EU? bbshd 1000w

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Use the website checkout for some sites and compare them yourself, it only takes a few minutes. I think you'll find that a similarly specced BBSHD from Luna is at least 100USD or more, than from EM3ev (including shipping to most EU destinations) You may be able to get the BBSHD cheaper elsewhere, but that is the price we charge and we have a 1 year warranty on all our products.

Also note that EM3ev has local support in the UK and has been quietly keeping customers, from all over the World happy, for several years already

Thanks
Paul EM3ev

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I dont know about any of that but why did you decide to drag luna cycle into this?

Did you hear about Lunas new special?

They are offering 4 girls free for 4 nights with every kit purchase for EU customers.

Plus they are offering free shipping to EU customers on a bbshd with coupon code XXX that is for real by the way.

Luna gotta stay ahead of the chinese...even the white guys in china. we wont lose this battle for 100 bucks.


But i am proud Proud you are trying to be the low price king...that is awesome. Its good for everyone you are finally passing on those incredible savings you are getting living in china biking distance from bafang.

its all good.

Damn paul you got us moved into the for sale thread...... thanks again buddy. Next time i am in Shanghai YOU are buying all the beers.

Green Machine said:

cell_man said:

Gälk said:

Where do I get the best price to import or buy in EU? bbshd 1000w

Click to expand...

Use the website checkout for some sites and compare them yourself, it only takes a few minutes. I think you'll find that a similarly specced BBSHD from Luna is at least 100USD or more, than from EM3ev (including shipping to most EU destinations) You may be able to get the BBSHD cheaper elsewhere, but that is the price we charge and we have a 1 year warranty on all our products.

Also note that EM3ev has local support in the UK and has been quietly keeping customers, from all over the World happy, for several years already

Thanks
Paul EM3ev

Click to expand...

I dont know about any of that but why did you decide to drag luna cycle into this?

Did you hear about Lunas new special?

They are offering 4 girls free for 4 nights with every kit purchase for EU customers.

Plus they are offering free shipping to EU customers on a bbshd with coupon code XXX that is for real by the way.

Luna gotta stay ahead of the chinese...even the white guys in china. we wont lose this battle for 100 bucks.


But i am proud Proud you are trying to be the low price king...that is awesome. Its good for everyone you are finally passing on those incredible savings you are getting living in china biking distance from bafang.

its all good.

Click to expand...

I didn't drag anyone into anything. I'm not allowed to suggest that someone does a price comparison? Please clarify what other dealers are allowed to do, as i am not really too sure what is acceptable and what is not.

My BBS02 prices are much the same now, as they were last year. Hardly changed actually. So I don't really get the suggestion I have made significant changes since you burst on the scene in a blaze of glory 1 year ago.

A pleasure as always I'll have to share some pics of that special night for all to see, with you, our mutual friend and your new friends

Green Machine said:

Damn paul you got us moved into the for sale thread...... thanks again buddy. Next time i am in Shanghai YOU are buying all the beers.

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Don't remember you buying many beers to be honest (back on 15th June 2015, to be precise). I do however remember very clearly just how many photos you took of my factory and our products in various states of completion (for the article you were planning to write). My wife and staff thought it was a bit odd and asked me several times if it was ok for this stranger to be taking so many pics of our stuff and asking so many questions. Stupidly I let you continue, as I thought we were cool and as we have a mutual friend and i thought we were cool. I do hope that day in my factory helped to give you some pointers in your battery development program (or rather the place/s that build them). From the looks of things, it seems that day certainly helped (at least if you don't look inside).

You say things like

trying to be the low price king...that is awesome.

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I don't broadcast in my listings, how much cheaper I am, compared to a fellow ebike parts supplier, but you say things like the above to me (pot, kettle, black, maybe?). I never claimed to be cheap, or even reasonably priced (as seems to be such a popular statement of late, never Cheap, no no no...). I have been China based for 5 years (running the business, 7 years in total) and always tried to put myself somewhere between the typical Chinese price, which often had little or no support and the local dealers, that would tend to be more expensive (rightfully so). Frankly I always wanted to supply to dealers, so pricing can be a delicate line to navigate. When you need to consider the support that goes with the sales, not to mention the resources you have available to supply the product (when you actually make things, that take time and effort), rather than buy everything in, and also you don't want the local dealers to hate you (by being too cheap).

I don't send my competitors threatening emails, if they sell something cheaper than I'd like! I have that saved away somewhere

I always did my best to fix any issues we were faced with and that included the bad days when we were getting BBS02 controller failures (amongst other things) on a wholesale basis (you missed that, when Bafang upgraded the fets). It hasn't been easy, but I've stuck with it and things are slowly improving in every respect, despite what some may seem to suggest/think. We at EM3ev may not be the leading anything, but I'm doing just fine, thank you very much, and I am making every effort to continuously improve our products and everything else. It's not easy, but that's what I do and there are too many people depending on me. I don't give up, when things get a little tough. I've come this far, I'm no quitter and I am certainly not turning pussy, because of you!

I've heard on the grapevine how much product Luna can shift (which I'm not embarrassed to say, is far more than we do), even after I've been doing this for 5 years and Luna for only 1 year. Well done! I guess switching an info site into a sales platform, getting your mates to do favourable "reviews" is a smart business move, especially when the prices are soooo reasonable (not cheap). Yet I get comments like this directed at me on Luna's FB page, even though, as you say in your BBSHD listing "Luna Cycle is by far the largest BBSHD dealer in the world and we deserve that position":





Why is little old me, sooo important, to the "Largest BBSHD dealer in the world"? I also don't get what Luna's "Aussie Invasion" has got to do with me either??? :? Australia is not a big part of our sales (our total sales are reasonable, but far from huge and Australia is far from a big chunk of them). Despite what some people seem to think. Yes, I work closely with a certain dealer over there and I have made some friends over the years. I do so because I like them, they are nice guys, they do some cool stuff over in Oz, and I like to co-operate with descent guys, that know their shit. I feel rather bad now, for those Aussie dealers that are being "invaded". That in some way, it was partly down to me, that they now have to experience the "electric revolution" for themselves. So now Luna will fix all the wrongs that the corporate greedy have inflicted on the innocent Aussie buyers... But Luna is the leading..., sorry I'm struggling to match the talk, with what I see, with my own eyes :?

I've worked really hard on the battery pack assembly methods this year. Since I now have some help with customer support, I have more time to devote to the products and other stuff that was so difficult when I was doing almost everything by myself. I'm not as good at delegation as some, and finding the right support person and training them up, took time and effort too. There isn't a queue of wide eyed Chinese people, with perfect English, that know a bit about ebikes, and have a desire to be part of a revolution over here unfortunately. Which is why i have a fellow "White Man" work with us, he gets a European salary and he gets paid every month... without fail

I'm China based (never hid the fact). I seem to get knocked a lot just lately, for being in China (China this, China that, so and so is in China etc.) and as you so nicely put it, I'm the "white guy in China" apparently (when not so long ago, I was the Vendor of the Year). I plan to come to the USA to better service the customers, I've built up over the years and I get veiled, public threats. It seems like I can't win. I really do not know what a guy is to do, its like I have to ask permission to do anything, and get a seal of approval... Whilst some, seem to be able to say whatever the hell you like, about anyone they choose, and nobody bats an eyelid. If there is nothing bad to say, just make it up... or find a way to make everything revolve around yourself, that so and so, only did that cos of me... Me, me me me me me me... Its all about ME.

You know what, if you haven't noticed thus far, I'm done tip toeing around you. Even if you are the Leading whatever and you will have your cronies try to bad mouth me and make your little plots against me! Carry on.

You know what, I don't like bullies that try to push me around, and I dislike bullies that frock with my friends even less. I never said anything publicly about you or Luna (no doubt, I've been known to mention you in private), despite the various digs that have been directed at me, from Luna and some of your staff over many months, and despite everything that has passed. I don't like friends and associates, that work hard at their businesses and have done loads of good stuff, to be rubbished publicly (even being mentioned in product listings), or for people to receive threatening, ranting emails (received a few myself and I am aware of some very respected people in this business, who received far worse than me). If they do something, that someone doesn't like, or didn't do what they were told to do. Do what you like, I couldn't care less.

You are a bully and a scheming, nasty bit of work, but YOU WILL NOT TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CAN'T DO. I'm all grown now and so long as I'm doing right by people, I'll continue to do what I have worked at so hard, all these years and continue to supply and service customers that honour me with their business. If everybody decides they'd rather buy elsewhere, then so be it. I'll listen to reasonable discussion, but I'm not going to stop doing what I do, because someone decided it's their pie now.

You weren't so brave when you had the chance to fix me last year, when we were face to face (with your camera). Nor did you come and see me at Interbike last year, so I don't get why you are such a tough guy now :?

BTW, the answer is still the same. As I told the nice guy that I used to get along with really well, who used to write a few nice articles about my little operation in the past. I will not add a link to electricbike.com, when it is basically Luna, which is a direct (and aggressive) competitor of mine. After that, it seems we are no longer friends and I am fair game for digs from you, your staff and your cronies.

How about I drop by your place, after we get the US warehouse sorted, with my camera and take some pics? I have an article I'm preparing Return the favour, you know...

All the best to you, and yes we will let the market decide, as you so ominously say. I'll be doing my best to educate people going forward, something I never seemed to have time to do before. Hopefully the market are given a chance to make up their own mind, and make an informed decision. I will be helping in the future and hopefully other too, to better inform people. It's time for someone else to have a go on that mic, we've been listening to you and your cronies' for too long!

To the ES mods, I will be very annoyed if my statements are pulled. There is not a word I said, that can't be backed up with facts.

Thanks
Paul, EM3ev

who cares what you think paul....

personally i think every single one of your posts belongs in the for sale thread....

i think you have ridden an ebike maybe 10x and you have no test data to go on......

to get more on subject a 11.5 ah pf pack is more than enough to power a bbshd and anyone who has owned (and actually rode one ) can testify to that.

OP your good with that pf pack.

Green Machine said:

who cares what you think paul....

personally i think every single one of your posts belongs in the for sale thread....

i think you have ridden an ebike maybe 10x and you have no test data to go on......

to get more on subject a 11.5 ah pf pack is more than enough to power a bbshd and anyone who has owned (and actually rode one ) can testify to that.

OP your good with that pf pack.

Click to expand...

There is no need to be so sensitive, chill

Trying to educate people on how to pick a suitable battery for a given kit, is fishing for a sale? Ok, if you say so. If the mods see it as such, they are welcome to have a word with me, or move the thread to a place they think is more appropriate. If people choose to think what i say has no value, they are free to ignore it. This thread is not even about anything to do with your interests, it just has a link to 1 of your listings, it also has a link to another vendor.

If you read/understood what I said, you would see that i suggested a 13S(or 14S), 4P pack of PF cells should be ok. I merely pointed out that 4P of most high energy cells, is in my personal experience, not sufficient to reasonably run a 30A kit. In fact, if you actually look at what the guy was asking, he doesn't even have 1 of your packs, he just has something in a similar case. Most of what I said was trying to get over the fact, that the case has little to no bearing on the performance of the battery.

I'm sorry if people (not just you) get all sensitive and touchy if I repeat the same things i have been telling my customers and saying on my site for years. I've always tried to keep the specs and recommendations as reasonable and conservative at possible and i will continue to do so

I started doing 14S packs a few years ago after I moved from 16S A123, which are 52.8V nominal (with a really nice, flat discharge curve and high discharge current). My existing customers found the 13S (46.8V) Samsung packs a bit flat in comparison, so i added another series cell and made a 50V pack (aka 52V). There used to be a time, that giving conservative recommendations on capacity and recommended discharge rate was cool and appreciated, now I sometime get digs for doing the same. For not going along with the bigger/higher is better mentality.

FYI, Valentino Rossi is not a whiz on the spanners, and building an F1 car will not make you into the next Michael Schumacher

I don't ride a bike as much as I used to, but I can ride just fine thanks. I even used to ride sports bikes before I came over to China and even did a few track days on them (nearly killed myself on a sports bike in Germany once). There is a lot of things about me, that people might not know. Just because you spend your time working on the details that helps to make stuff incrementally better, educating yourself on how to make those things a reality, that were only in your mind before, doesn't make you into some kind of boring, loser, nerd (at least not around here). I can still throw around a few weights in the gym, but my kickboxing days are probably over. I don't know you, you certainly don't know me, and respectfully, I don't need to ask your permission to come onto ES and share some of my knowledge and experience

Good day Eric, I'm off, I have work to get on with. Its 5pm here, not 3am.

cell_man said:

Green Machine said:

who cares what you think paul....

personally i think every single one of your posts belongs in the for sale thread....

i think you have ridden an ebike maybe 10x and you have no test data to go on......

to get more on subject a 11.5 ah pf pack is more than enough to power a bbshd and anyone who has owned (and actually rode one ) can testify to that.

OP your good with that pf pack.

Click to expand...

There is no need to be so sensitive, chill

Trying to educate people on how to pick a suitable battery for a given kit, is fishing for a sale? Ok, if you say so. If the mods see it as such, they are welcome to have a word with me, or move the thread to a place they think is more appropriate. If people choose to think what i say has no value, they are free to ignore it. This thread is not even about anything to do with your interests, it just has a link to 1 of your listings, it also has a link to another vendor.

If you read/understood what I said, you would see that i suggested a 13S(or 14S), 4P pack of PF cells should be ok. I merely pointed out that 4P of most high energy cells, is in my personal experience, not sufficient to reasonably run a 30A kit. In fact, if you actually look at what the guy was asking, he doesn't even have 1 of your packs, he just has something in a similar case. Most of what I said was trying to get over the fact, that the case has little to no bearing on the performance of the battery.

I'm sorry if people (not just you) get all sensitive and touchy if I repeat the same things i have been telling my customers and saying on my site for years. I've always tried to keep the specs and recommendations as reasonable and conservative at possible and i will continue to do so

I started doing 14S packs a few years ago after I moved from 16S A123, which are 52.8V nominal (with a really nice, flat discharge curve and high discharge current). My existing customers found the 13S (46.8V) Samsung packs a bit flat in comparison, so i added another series cell and made a 50V pack (aka 52V). There used to be a time, that giving conservative recommendations on capacity and recommended discharge rate was cool and appreciated, now I sometime get digs for doing the same. For not going along with the bigger/higher is better mentality.

FYI, Valentino Rossi is not a whiz on the spanners, and building an F1 car will not make you into the next Michael Schumacher

I don't ride a bike as much as I used to, but I can ride just fine thanks. I even used to ride sports bikes before I came over to China and even did a few track days on them (nearly killed myself on a sports bike in Germany once). There is a lot of things about me, that people might not know. Just because you spend your time working on the details that helps to make stuff incrementally better, educating yourself on how to make those things a reality, that were only in your mind before, doesn't make you into some kind of boring, loser, nerd (at least not around here). I can still throw around a few weights in the gym, but my kickboxing days are probably over. I don't know you, you certainly don't know me, and respectfully, I don't need to ask your permission to come onto ES and share some of my knowledge and experience

Good day Eric, I'm off, I have work to get on with. Its 5pm here, not 3am.

Click to expand...

you gotta be kidding me. Sports bikes and kick boxing and lifting weights too....wow...... so point us out to one eibke build thread....or a document of a single ride? how did you come up with the name "cell man"....did you just start off here peddling stuff you buy there in china?

we all know you got a job in china working for mac motor and after that the prices for mac motors mysteriously doubled (that sucked for all of us) ..... tell us the story after that....how you found electric bikes or something. how you found these amazing prices on cells and passed it down to us.....5 years ago when batteries were unobtainable.

Green Machine said:

cell_man said:

Green Machine said:

who cares what you think paul....

personally i think every single one of your posts belongs in the for sale thread....

i think you have ridden an ebike maybe 10x and you have no test data to go on......

to get more on subject a 11.5 ah pf pack is more than enough to power a bbshd and anyone who has owned (and actually rode one ) can testify to that.

OP your good with that pf pack.

Click to expand...

There is no need to be so sensitive, chill

Trying to educate people on how to pick a suitable battery for a given kit, is fishing for a sale? Ok, if you say so. If the mods see it as such, they are welcome to have a word with me, or move the thread to a place they think is more appropriate. If people choose to think what i say has no value, they are free to ignore it. This thread is not even about anything to do with your interests, it just has a link to 1 of your listings, it also has a link to another vendor.

If you read/understood what I said, you would see that i suggested a 13S(or 14S), 4P pack of PF cells should be ok. I merely pointed out that 4P of most high energy cells, is in my personal experience, not sufficient to reasonably run a 30A kit. In fact, if you actually look at what the guy was asking, he doesn't even have 1 of your packs, he just has something in a similar case. Most of what I said was trying to get over the fact, that the case has little to no bearing on the performance of the battery.

I'm sorry if people (not just you) get all sensitive and touchy if I repeat the same things i have been telling my customers and saying on my site for years. I've always tried to keep the specs and recommendations as reasonable and conservative at possible and i will continue to do so

I started doing 14S packs a few years ago after I moved from 16S A123, which are 52.8V nominal (with a really nice, flat discharge curve and high discharge current). My existing customers found the 13S (46.8V) Samsung packs a bit flat in comparison, so i added another series cell and made a 50V pack (aka 52V). There used to be a time, that giving conservative recommendations on capacity and recommended discharge rate was cool and appreciated, now I sometime get digs for doing the same. For not going along with the bigger/higher is better mentality.

FYI, Valentino Rossi is not a whiz on the spanners, and building an F1 car will not make you into the next Michael Schumacher

I don't ride a bike as much as I used to, but I can ride just fine thanks. I even used to ride sports bikes before I came over to China and even did a few track days on them (nearly killed myself on a sports bike in Germany once). There is a lot of things about me, that people might not know. Just because you spend your time working on the details that helps to make stuff incrementally better, educating yourself on how to make those things a reality, that were only in your mind before, doesn't make you into some kind of boring, loser, nerd (at least not around here). I can still throw around a few weights in the gym, but my kickboxing days are probably over. I don't know you, you certainly don't know me, and respectfully, I don't need to ask your permission to come onto ES and share some of my knowledge and experience

Good day Eric, I'm off, I have work to get on with. Its 5pm here, not 3am.

Click to expand...

you gotta be kidding me. Sports bikes and kick boxing and lifting weights too....wow...... so point us out to one eibke build thread....or a document of a single ride? how did you come up with the name "cell man"....did you just start off here peddling stuff you buy there in china?

we all know you got a job in china working for mac motor and after that the prices for mac motors mysteriously doubled (that sucked for all of us) ..... tell us the story after that....how you found electric bikes or something. how you found these amazing prices on cells and passed it down to us.....5 years ago when batteries were unobtainable.

Click to expand...

You should probably just leave it, call it a day. This is a bit sill now.

FWIW; have had a positive purchase experience with Luna, and no doubt would have with Paul too. However, I think that it's disingenuous for a manufacturer to dis a competitor --- totally inappropriate; take the high road.

I've had excellent purchasing experiences with both folks, and I'm grateful for both folks efforts in getting human asses on ebikes, as opposed to spraying poisons for transportation.

Please continue.

I have beer and chips. :lol:

I thought LUNA seemed quite stand-up till now.

If it's true their start was guided/helped by abusing another's trust and goodwill with false pretenses of 'writing an article', I must say that is the type of cut-throat that doesn't sit well with me. Industrial espionage is a real thing and is serious.

To get special privileges behind the scenes to 'write' or 'report', and then turn right around and become a competitor (that's snarky to boot), is morally reprehensible imo and shows that type of person doesn't respect their self very much, let-alone other people. I don't like giving my money to morally gray money hungry people/companies.

Here here.

Theres been some unfortunate discussions of late painting Aussies as idiots and price gougers that have completely isolated both parties from our market. The childlike behaviours have been both hilarious and distressing to watch at the same time like some protracted train wreck.

I am still in disbelief at some of the revelations of pm's going on in the background. Its hit the point where even my chinese suppliers are skyping the gossip with bemusement.


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Yeah its all pretty stupid ...and its been going on since Luna Cycle started.... mostly behind the scenes gossip and talk behind my back but i am glad to see some of it come out in the open.

A lot of back stabbing and rumours etc.....

There is no way i was at Pauls shop taking pictures spying .... i took a few big pics of the overall shop with pauls permission for reference photos that i wanted so we could use whenever we mentioned him in EB.com articles..... back then we mentioned him all the time. i even asked what part of the factory he wanted to present.

But there is no way i was there stealing technology from him.... i was there with my friends visiting other factories and we wanted a deal on mac motors. I was not in china to learn about batteries (i was already making my own packs and selling wholesale)...i definitely did not see anything at all revolutionary at pauls. i could go on but i dont want to knock him or give details on what i saw there.

Paul Already knew i was wholesaling batteries and ebike packs so he already was not too fond of me.

My friend was Pauls friend and he said that me and paul should be friends.... me and paul met and to all of our suprise we hit it off right away.

We met several nights at bars after our initial meeting and i told him i was opening a retail store and would like to work with him but needed better pricing on mac motors. I said he needed better dealer pricing if he wanted to get guys like me who wanted to retail...that we couldnt do it on 10 percent margins.

what gets me is my friend and I who Paul mentioned who is very close to paul .... we are both in serous romantic relationships... well we met some nice looking girls at the bar that night and i guess paul took some picutres.

The scandal should not be the few pictures i took of pauls "factory" with his permission...which i genuinely wanted to use as a reference anytime we mentioned em3ev. (which was very frequently)

The picture scandal should be what Paul posted in one of his above rants:

"A pleasure as always I'll have to share some pics of that special night for all to see, with you, our mutual friend and your new friends "

For any guy... we know this is crossing a very bad line. If he wants to wreck my relationship or his good friends relationship by posting pics..or even thinks it will wreck our relationships...that is dirty.

The truth is i was very naive back then.... and i was very open with paul what i was doing.....and said that he should think of offering guys like me better pricing so he s not so bogged down with dealing with indivdual customers.

I was ready to make a 100 piece mac motor order...but i said give us good pricing so that we can sale at the same price you do and make a few quid (as he says)

In fact i gave him some very earnest advice on how he could improve his website and his business. (not that he needs it , em3ev made him rich and that was immediately obvious)

I really thought all of us dealers could work together in a time when it is very hard to compete with ebay, amazon, alibaba etc.....

My whole purpose of the meeting Paul was to try to convince paul we should be allies and work together.

So paul and i I felt became semi- friends...... and when i got home to the USA i finally started my retail site.

And things fell apart fast as luna began to grow. Paul says in his above post its because i asked him to link to eb.com and he said no so i disowned him.

That is pretty funny and like a lot of the stuff he posts its not true. When have i ever asked anybody for a link? what is this the 90s?

But what is even as i was starting and struggling we were sending him 300 unique visitors s a day from electricibke.com. I told him if he kept slamming us i would stop linking. Luna was getting mabye 10 links a day from eb.com.

And if there was a moment when he really crossed a line is when he went public and started calling my BBSHD's as fake made from a company nobody ever heard of "everich" and pretending to be so close with bafang (hes not) so he knows. I emailed him and said lets keep this civil and we can always email and work together...we are not school children after all....

And he says i threatened him..... in his rages he always mention we should settle this face to face.... like fist fight and i awlays think how dumb is that.

I did say one time in an email (which he refers to above) that he dont want to get in a price war with me.... that is not really suppoose to be a threat..i mean its not good for him or me or the industry.

I cant figure that last bit out. Destroying the bbshd price is a bad idea for him to do, but in your recent "Aussie invasion" posts you said aussie retailers were gouging on price for the bbshd and prices should be rock bottom for the good of the consumer?

I think you're playing the victim. Don't you sell half the bbshd units in the world now? Whats your margin?


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It's disappointing to see antagonism between two of the acknowledged good players in the business. I hope this chapter passes quickly. in a growing market, there's room for everybody and it's appropriate that prosperity would come to the guys who've done right by us so far.

I don't think he will internalise that Chalo. The first few sentences about its all pretty stupid moving in an externalising blame suggests its gonna be a long road.

Plenty of room in the USA market for sure. But the behind the scenes comments since the Aussie Invasion slurs are concerning.


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exactly Chou.....me and paul are the good guys..as well as many other ES seller.... the bullshitters wouldnt last long on here.

I still refer people to paul who want to buy a pack in europe. ... and think he offers a great service and even now think he is a good person and ethical the way he runs his business and i have a lot of respect for him.

And he should even admit as heated as it ever gets between us in email I still still always say we should just meet and drink beers together. I like the guy and think em3ev is awesome company that i still refer business too.

yeah i would prefer if paul was usa based so he is spending all our greenbacks here.... i do prefer to see usa companies succeed because i am a patriot and hate to see what is happening here.

But i still see paul and i in the same game...and the good guys even if our views so much differ.

And all of us small dealers world wide are all at threat now of being passed by alibaba sellers ebay sellers, amazon and china factories selling direct....and i have always said the good guys should band together. Even paul is threatened even though is in china.

Hobby king recently started building an entire eibke section...and are populating it every day...... and if that doesnt scare small dealers it should. that is the big dog people should be watching out for.

And about gougers i dont remember ever saying that about Australian dealers and doubt i said it because honestly that is a partnership with my aussie buddy and im helping him start up a dealership (rodney here on es)... but everyone knows i have a problem with dealers who charge double for something that anyone can find elsewhere for half the price.

I dont think that is good to sale stuff that should be a commodity at extreme mark ups....especially if you are going to rebrand it and call it your own by saying it has this hocus pocus and its better than the one you can get elsewhere for half price.

that is what i have a problem with . oh and by the way that is not paul.

I am not surprised by any of this.
The Ebike business is cutthroat, and anyone entertaining starting up a web-based retail site is just asking for pain.
Pretty sure our days are numbered, actually.

I am about to do something that I'm not supposed to do. I try to keep electricbike.com and endless sphere separate, even when I think it would help, but...today, I feel it is important for the ES members to see something.

Here is a page from the back-room of the admin pages of electricbike.com. This page is from when someone is reading an article and then they click on a link to go somewhere that we suggested. I think this will be very instructive. If anyone thinks that Eric is "competing" with the other ebike retailers because he opened a shop 14 months ago...forget opinion and look at the numbers.

In the last 30 days, Eric's magazine has sent his readers to these websites.

Qty___destination

33____Lectric Cycles (LeGrand)
45____LA eBike (Corbin and Alan Chinito Hu) THESE 45 WERE FOR ONLY ONE DAY, NOT 30!
47____DaVinci Drives (Matt/recumpense)
50____ebikessf.com (Ilia)
62____ebikekit.com (Jason and Dogman)
68____Holmes Hobbies (John Rob)
79____Tangent (Dave)
88____Lyen Controllers (Edward)
109___Kinaye (Barent)
132___LightningRods (Mike)
322___facebook/endless-sphere
335___em3ev.com (Paul)
380___ebikes.ca (Justin)
1120__endless-sphere.com (Justin)

Since the subject of the day is Eric vs Paul, I think its appropriate to mention that Paul will not put a simple link to electricbike.com on his website, but in the last year, Eric has sent (through links) 4,448 readers to em3ev.com...at a time when the Luna store was operating and Paul thought Eric was "competing" with him.

If this is how Eric "competes", he is doing a terrible job of it.

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You know what, I said next to nothing, to anyone publicly, until I found out GM had ranted at me, which i noticed, after my friends in Australia, infirmed me of this "Aussie invasion". I get this silly, mockingand rude rant, all because I dared to suggest that someone do a price comparison between EM3ev/Luna to a certain location, and suggest that we have some local support in Europe (inquiry was related to a BBSHD kit to Europe). My initial post was hardly outrageous, but the response was.

I have only ever did 1 thing in my dealings with Eric/Luna that I am not proud of, I am quite sure it had minimal effect, and I tried to make it right and did stick to my word. I was especially careful not to say anything to customers after that. I also said, I was happy that Electricbike.com remove any mention of EM3ev from the site. I've managed just fine for the last year with no new links and I am not going to be held to ransom, or link to a very aggressive competitor.

I am a little surprised that Ron accepts this old line, hook line and sinker, like it makes everything all right. I suppose at least there is less ranting about China in Luna listings of late. Do I think Luna is great for the Industry, no I am afraid I do not, nor do i think it is a great model, or sustainable (and many others in the industry, share similar views). Do i think Luna is all bad, no. that would be silly, but i do not like how they attack any company they feel like, even naming competitors, or people that wouldn't be bullied, in their listings. I get it, you are cheaper, but there is no need to publicly try and ruin another business, that has employees and lots of dealers, because you decide to sell cheaper than them (and more importantly they didn't treat Eric with the respect he thinks he desrves, or stood up to him). It's easy to talk about how easy it is to sell lots of kits and make money, when you turn a popular info site into a sales platform for your new store and sell much cheaper than the competition.

I will respond to the points raised by Eric when I get a chance, but first, I'd like to hear what he has to say about the number 1 company that electricbike.com sends traffic to. I have trouble with some of things said here and I have personal experience with both the Satiator and with Kingpan chargers. I know which of them, I had many more returns from. Frankly, I cannot recall a single Satiator failure. Kingpan were the first charger I ever supplied and the failure rate was terrible, I dropped them a looong time ago. EM3ev have been selling a charger with a switch to change the charge percentage for about 3 years BTW, 14s packs for more than 3 years, triangle packs for close to 5 years.

http://electricbike.com/forum/forum/batteries/18650/12401-how-to-fix-a-battery-in-decline/page2



I have no reason to be pissed at Luna, when I read stuff like this:
http://www.electricbike.com/luna-cycles-hello/

You guys carry on listening to all this unbiased stuff, backed up with proof. I'll be back when i get a chance to string a few things together.

I'd just like to add, that I met Ron on 2 or 3 occasions and like i said to many people, he is 1 of the nicest guys I've ever had the chance to meet. It was Ron that wrote much/all of the complimentary articles about EM3ev and it was always Ron I communicated with, frankly, I thought it was his site for a long while.

IMPO, and i don't think I'm alone, but I'd say it was him more than anything else that made electricbike.com into such a popular website. I really do not get why he never just did his own site, rather than putting his efforts into someone else's.

I do hope that Ron can understand/accept that asking a company to link to basically their main competitor, is not a reasonable thing to ask. Check the internet rankings for em3ev, lunacycle and electricbike. LC gets way more traffic than EM3ev, they are the self appointed (and likely are) leading bbshd dealer in the world, and yet they need extra traffic from me?

LIke a lot of my quotes paul takes that one about the satiator out of context. That particular post was taken out of a discussion on our forum on the pros and cons of certain chargers. People dont like to post anything negative about the satiator for political reasons.

As always i am guilty of speaking my mind..... and in the beggining days of luna we did get a lot of charger and battery returns because we did not understand the nuances of the satiator.

....until we discovered the problem was with the force start feature.... basically every thing i said in that forum post. I dont know why i can bring that up in a forum where very few people are reading.

The 3 amp charger we sell for 30 bucks is awesome and it is not a luna charger or a satiator and even in that post i advocate that. Remember when i came into the market you couldnt buy a 30 dollar charger anywere in the USA... you would get reamed for buying a charger.

If you do a google search for Sataitor charger my review will come up top 3 which i wrote https://www.electricbike.com/cycle-satiator/

I wrote this in the days before the luna charger came out....because i genuinely felt bad for stepping on my friend Justins feet with a charger release. Nobody at this point had written any reviews on the charger. which it think is a travesty.... i said it in the review and say it now IT IS THE BEST EBIKE CHARGER EVER MADE.

This is what i think a very positive review and it helped give the satiator more main stream appeal. i am pretty sure i sale more satiators then anyone and sale to different kind of people who are not always enthusiasts and like their chargers simple to use. Most of my users dont want to read an instruction manual before buying their charger.

I am pretty sure Luna Cycle and that review is the reason satiators sold out a month before christmas and have been sold out ever since.

I am also pretty sure the new satiators will have a force start function that works which is great.

So yes i think the satiator is a great example of how i am and how luna is. We are honest and forthright about our products.... the good and the bad. That is just some forum post and i am being honsest....for 300 bucks i do expect a lot ....and easy to use is one of them. Is any of that stuff in my add or in my review? NO its not .... and i did say that is one of the few times i made a revieew more positive than maybe i think it should have been....but i do have confidence that the satiator will fix its flaws in later versions.

We are on our 3rd version now of the luna charger and we are trying to fix problems we have with the toggle switches and the LED displays and its hard to get a product right when it is made in china and i feel that. Its got to a point where we want to pick the LEDs and pick the TOggles, anad pick the fan, and pick the case to get all the little problems fixed.

Notice also i broadcast who our factory in china is......who else does that?

Regarding Ron.

Yeah Ron is awesome. And i have made him part owner of electricbike.com and have him in my will to take it 100 percent over if i die. (Paul that is the secret to getting and holding good people...you gotta be learn to be generous) And he is independent and i never tell him what to write or edit what he writes and never have. People might notice i dont write many stories since luna came about (the satiator review above is one of few exceptions).... just so i can counter what is often said behind my back that I am using eb.com as a tool to get more sales.

I am really trying to be ethical.... but i will tell you this..... a lot of dealers are lucky i am not running luna right now....because i would really expose a lot of shit i have found out doing my business if i was not running a competing company. But I am smart enough to know that would come off as really bad for me to do now....but i would love to write about all the bull shit i have learned since jumping into this industry.

Electricbikeschool just posted a story where i touch on some of it: http://www.ebikeschool.com/

I think the only time i have ever Ron anything in terms of writing is please to stop linking to paul because of the back stabbing he is doing....and i asked as if i had kids gloves on.

Remember Ron did not come around until later and all of the original stories and reviews were written by me. Not to mention most of the "big traffic" posts ...a point Ron will often tell people when they say the ridiculous claim that i dont deserve credit for the site i worked my ass off to build from the ground up. By the way when ROn came in he volunteered to come in just to proof read and check all my rampant misspellings.


Also about the staying in business stuff and if Luna will make it......

I would agree with all that , that maybe our days our numbered and we have a rough road ahead of us and Paul might out last us.......

And i say that because Paul is in China and is a China owned company which is a gigantic advantage against us. HUGE.

All of us US sellers are at threat from China sellers now and its getting harder and harder to do business here.

I will admit i was pretty mad when i heard that Paul is planning to move to the USA to have a go with competing better with me. i am very familiar with how china does business and see it in the vape business ( i am big in the vape game) that when china companies open warehouses in USA it is bad news..... Not just for Luna but every other dealer out here. i know thousands of small vape dealers went out of business in the last year. Yeah i can still compete with the china companies with vape...but man....its hard and most small dealers cant.

I am sorry but i do see Paul as a CHina company...and that would be great if he was American and he was moving back to America to compete on a level playing field with us usa dealers. BUt he is a china company set up by his china wife.... he gets thinks like a 17 percent kick back from the goverment for every product he sales to us here (this should be illegal trade practice by the way) He is not a USA citizen (he is british)..... and why not move back to britain and do a better job with Europe which IS the biggest market in the world right now for ebikes......why come to the USA?


China companies dont have to worry about liability, or insurance, or following the rules with shipping. Hobby king is a great example of a company breaking all the rules that they would never get away with here. They are a moving target here in the usa ...impossible to sue and a lesson in shady shipping and business tactics.


Bafang is looking for a warehouse in USA.... and trust me their plan is to sale direct.

Its called the China invasion And yeah ..... i dont know if LUna will survive or any other USA reseller..... i am pretty sure paul will survive. He can airship batteries all over the world with impunity and lives in china, the ebike capital of the world. Give me that and i know i will survive.

But I will give it my best shot. i am even considering moving to China .... (ironically while Paul is planning to move here) But I really want to stick it out here and make it here as an american company and as an american Factory.

I've met Eric and always thought he was a nice guy. Even though I haven't met Paul, I've always respected him for the fine job he has done over the years supplying us with good stuff and fine service/follow up. Another unfortunate thing I have noticed is that both gentlemen involved aren't so gentle when criticized. I've seen both get all pumped up over small slights numerous times.

Hey guys, you are both in business. As I told -methods when he announced his entry in reselling ebike stuff, "Going into business is like putting your balls on a table and handing the other guy a knife. Now... we'll see who is the quickest."

However, when it has now gotten to the point that one Justin's products (that he has spent years developing and testing) are judged inferior to a $30 cheap Chinese charger, it's time for everyone to back off a bit.

Cheers guys. Have a beer, smoke a bong or something...

Nick

Green Machine said:

I am sorry but i do see Paul as a CHina company...

He is not a USA citizen (he is british)..... and why not move back to britain and do a better job with Europe which IS the biggest market in the world right now for ebikes......why come to USA

Click to expand...

Whereas apparently us innovative and independent Aussies should just shut up and take rock bottom pricing in the rear from our new American bully overlord and watch our hard earned cash flow offshore.
Yay!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll try to be brief.

Eric started the electricbike.com magazine in February 2012. Maybe he planned to eventually open a store from the beginning, maybe he plans to sell electricbike.com and Luna Cycle for a payoff someday. Was I duped? Nobody has any idea how little I care if he keeps them or sells them.

He started Luna Cycle in July 2015, and it actually was for the reasons in the ebike school article. I'm glad he publicly confessed that he did ask me to stop linking to em3ev.com after Paul and he had a "vigorous" email exchange (both sides sent me copies, LOL). Newsflash:...Eric can be very abrasive and confrontational. To the people who have said "Ron, you don't know the real Eric", I know him better than you, and It just doesn't bother me.

So...what did I do? (after Luna Cycle started a store, and the "war" emerged)? In November 2015, I posted an article on all the companies that sell triangle battery packs, and Paul (along with SamD) are prominently included.

https://www.electricbike.com/triangle-battery-different-sizes/

Then, in September 2015, I posted an article about Interbike 2015 (Eric paid for my hotel room, in exchange for an article on Interbike 2015). In the article, I included a prominent mention of Paul and em3ev.com, especially because he was now selling off-road ebike frames (the EEB), and he was showing the "double-wide" MAC motor that he had developed. That was a really new product, and was news worth mentioning.

https://www.electricbike.com/interbike-2015/

How do you think Eric felt about me going out of my way to link to Paul and his new products? (after he had clearly asked me to not do that any more?). If you've been reading this far, I hope you already know that:...I don't care if Eric was annoyed or not. I dare anyone to find a post on endless-sphere.com or on any article in electricbike.com where I said anything disparaging about em3ev.com, ebikekit.com, or ebikes.ca

However, Jason, Paul, and Justin have all asked me to remove any links in electricbike.com articles to their websites. I am surprised that these web-based businesses had "no idea" that they were getting clicks from electricbike.com the past four years...However, I will take them at their word. Now that they know, they would prefer that they do not receive any traffic from electricbike.com. I am not offended, no sweat...I don't write for them.

However, this creates an interesting situation. Luna is news, as is em3ev.com, plus ebikekit.com, as is ebikes.ca...however, in the future when I report on Luna, BUT...I don't report on ebikekit.com, em3ev.com, and ebikes.ca...that fact will be used against me to show as proof that I am a shill for Luna.

I've always said that my writing can speak for itself (I trust the readers to make their own judgements), I don't need to justify my actions concerning my writing. You don't like Eric's personality? Get in line.

(edit: for those who are not familiar with American humor, I mean that there are many people who don't like Eric, and they are forming a line to register as such, and you are free to join them)

[moderator edit to add links]