CYC PHOTON

[chrismacey]

Too many speculations...
There are some videos out already pushing the motor to 1900W peak silently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2_2lXn4SPo&t=4s&ab_channel=BicycleMotorWorks
And I saw the temperature is shown in fahrenheit :lol:

Plus I bet 110N.m. with a 34T chainring feels similar to 160N.m. with the BBSHD with 48T chainring. It is also easier for the drivetrain. I would wait for the real life test with someone who knows EMTB to make a conclusion.

 

[pxl666]

Too many speculations...
There are some videos out already pushing the motor to 1900W peak silently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2_2lXn4SPo&t=4s&ab_channel=BicycleMotorWorks
And I saw the temperature is shown in fahrenheit :lol:

Plus I bet 110N.m. with a 34T chainring feels similar to 160N.m. with the BBSHD with 48T chainring. It is also easier for the drivetrain. I would wait for the real life test with someone who knows EMTB to make a conclusion.

agree . they seem to know what they are doing , however they might have release the price and specs before photos so to cut every gossip . seems stupid company with that of experience would release such weak product ...the only concern is the price

 

[ornias]

The 250w EN15194 motors like Bosch,Yamaha and others dont have problems with overheating.Most of them peaks about 800w with no problems.The 250w TQ motor peaks around 1200w and no overheating problem.
The problem with overheat is poor design,Low internal gearing and small stator/rotor.The point of mid drive is to not overheat when climbing

Make somethings clear:
ALL of these motors will overheat when running continuesly at more than 250w. This means that the cooling is not sufficient to keep running at high wattage. This is required by law/regulation/standards.

How all those manufacturers deal with this, and I expect this is going to include CYC, is lowering power when the temperature goes above a certain point.

Just because a motor overheats when running 10 minutes at 500W, does not mean it will actually run at 500W. A manufacturer can chose to, instead, run it for 5 minutes at 500W and fall back to 250W. (simplification.

In short:
The overheat is there.
However it will not overheat because it has a temperature sensor.

THis is the primary flaw with the TSDZ2: It lacks a temperature sensor. With a temperature sensor, you can run as many watts through it as you want (within reason ofc).

Sorry to read that you really dont know what you are talking about.I have had several of these motors climbing long steep mountain roads road here in Norway at 110kg.They do not overheat.250w is nothing.The TQ 250w motor is almost as powerful as the Bafang Ultra.
The Tq motor is used in the M1 SPITZING and can do 75 kmh

Please actually read what I wrote...
I'm not saying that the end-user unit overheats, i'm saying the motor will overheat at continued use above 250w. They have thermal-protection which just lowers the actuall wattages (aka: limits peak consumption).

So yet again:
ALL motors sold in the EU for ebikes (not speed-pedelecs!) need to overheat when continued load above 250w is applied. The only way to do so is by temperature based load-regulation (aka: limit wattage at higher temperature).

It's the law and all tests on all EN15194 compliant motors confirm this as well.

This does NOT mean your personal unit will overheat, it will just limit output when the temperature increases too much. You're not wrong, but you're simply not correctly reading what I wrote.

Stop talking down to experts on maters, based on your ancedotal end-user experiences. Your experiences might be valid, but your uneducated conclusions are not.

I'm actually one of the resident experts of EN15194:2017 and wrote many explainatory pieces by now.

Calling me out on not knowning things, is absolutely absurd in this case.

 

[ornias]

Take a look at this video and tell me this is a no better motor than the shitty Tsdz2 motor.Look around 19 min and 30 sek where he easily climb a 38% hill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Oib27_5SEg&ab_channel=CitrusCyclesLtd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3wbkdyBWT4&ab_channel=RobRidesEMTB

I never said this, actually I myself said this is a heavily improved TSDSZ2 design.
Removing many of the issues:
- metal-twist torque sensor
- different crank attachment
- better tolerances (I'm going to assume this, as it's literally just a few dollars extra to have the right tolerances)
- higher peak power.

Fixing all primary issues on the TSDZ2 makes it about 650 Eur all-in.
This product at 1200 Eur, is simply not a "two times improvement" in most cases.

 

[ornias]

Too many speculations...
There are some videos out already pushing the motor to 1900W peak silently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2_2lXn4SPo&t=4s&ab_channel=BicycleMotorWorks
And I saw the temperature is shown in fahrenheit :lol:

Plus I bet 110N.m. with a 34T chainring feels similar to 160N.m. with the BBSHD with 48T chainring. It is also easier for the drivetrain. I would wait for the real life test with someone who knows EMTB to make a conclusion.

No one said it wouldn't do 2Kw Peak afaik.
It might very well do so, No reason it cannot.

The Nm thing is a cool note though, it should indeed be noted more often that picking the right chaining for motor torque rating is kinda vital
Same reason some bosch motors (it was bosch right?) run extremely small chainrings, to compensate for a low-torque-high-speed design. Which, essentially, brings the same amount of power onto the wheel.

 

[ornias]

Too many speculations...
There are some videos out already pushing the motor to 1900W peak silently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2_2lXn4SPo&t=4s&ab_channel=BicycleMotorWorks
And I saw the temperature is shown in fahrenheit :lol:

Plus I bet 110N.m. with a 34T chainring feels similar to 160N.m. with the BBSHD with 48T chainring. It is also easier for the drivetrain. I would wait for the real life test with someone who knows EMTB to make a conclusion.

agree . they seem to know what they are doing , however they might have release the price and specs before photos so to cut every gossip . seems stupid company with that of experience would release such weak product ...the only concern is the price

Doesn't seem to me like a "weak" product at all.
Reading the stats they have an above-average nominal-power/torque rating, with extremely high peak power allowance.

Their peak-power is actually quite interesting, I assume they managed this with the (confirmed) 250w nominmal rating, by either improving the heat-transfer between rotor and stator or making a model to calculate motor hotspots based on the temperature reading(s).

It's interesting to see how they did it, super looking forwards to schematics and teardowns of this motor!

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

X1 stealth is also sold in Europe and nobody cares about artificial 250W limit and some stupid eu regulations. I'm pretty sure that photon won't start overheating even at constant 750W (limit in US). Photon will be sold worldwide not only in eu.

 

[ornias]

X1 stealth is also sold in Europe and nobody cares about artificial 250W limit and some stupid eu regulations. I'm pretty sure that photon won't start overheating even at constant 750W (limit in US). Photon will be sold worldwide not only in eu.

I think you're both trolling and misunderstanding a lot of things here...

- The X1 Stealth is fine to be used in the EU on what is called "speed pedelecs", those do not have the 250w nominal limit.
- People do care, in many countries having a significantly higher rated(!) motor, means you loose your bike. And people HAVE lost their bikes.
- Photon will not be able to do 750W continued load, as they have officially stated to me they will comply with EN15194. That's the end of that story, basically. It inherently means complying with the 250w nominal continued load limit and the measurement methods as described in EN15194.
- If they do not do so, the fines (and yes, even US companies can be fined and those fines executed in the US) are so significant they need to close shop.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

IT make zero sense to sell 250w motor in USA where limit is much higher. (750w).

Btw. That stupid regulation mentions also about 25km/h limit. Why would you limit motor to 25km/h in USA???? Sorry but your story does not hold up.

 

[ornias]

IT make zero sense to sell 250w motor in USA where limit is much higher. (750w).

Btw. That stupid regulation mentions also about 25km/h limit. Why would you limit motor to 25km/h in USA???? Sorry but your story does not hold up.

I never said the product makes a lot of sense in the USA, it's pretty clearly targeted for EU (CA?) Ebikes... However, even EN15194 compliant motors (bosch, tongsheng, some bafangs) are also populair in the US ebike market. So appearently you're wrong and people still buy EN15194 compliant motors in the USA.

EN15194 is not a regulation, it's a standard for compliance to a regulation.
However, EN15194 does allow the 25km/h limit to be removed, it's allowed to be a software limit.

My story does hold up, because, simply put, they themselves stated it's EU legal and EN15194 compliant and that directly has consequences.

Your opinion about the sanity of the regulation is completely off-topic and totally irrelevant. The only reason it's relevant, is because it inherently has meaning for the technical design limitations of the motor.

It's EN15194 compliant and you'll have to deal with that. Weither that makes that an USA viable motor for you, is up-to-you.
But don't go full 'murican and act like no one in the world cares.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

In USA most ebikes use hub motors 750W or MID bafangs 1000W. Go to NY and you won't find anybody ridding on that cheap 250W tongsheng!

Does that stupid regulation say anything about how fast temperature must be increasing and to what level?

For example brose motors Can work in boost mode (350W) for 30 min.

 

[ornias]

In USA most ebikes use hub motors 750W or MID bafangs 1000W. Go to NY and you won't find anybody ridding on that cheap 250W tongsheng!

Does that stupid regulation say anything about how fast temperature must be increasing and to what level?

For example brose motors Can work in boost mode (350W) for 30 min.

There are a number of users here and even reviewers and youtubers of the TSDZ2 in the USA. Even so: almost all of those Bosch and Brose motors also comply to the same rules. Even the USA sold ones. Which basically means: The vast majority of emtb's in the USA.

Yes there is, i've explained how it works a few times by now. Not going into detail, it has to do with temperature equilibrium at a certain continued wattage within factory defined safe operating limits.

350W for 30min seems plausible.

Anyway, this is totally off-topic and irrelevant for the Photon, all information discussed here is already out there anyway.

 

[1boris]

The 250w EN15194 motors like Bosch,Yamaha and others dont have problems with overheating.Most of them peaks about 800w with no problems.The 250w TQ motor peaks around 1200w and no overheating problem.
The problem with overheat is poor design,Low internal gearing and small stator/rotor.The point of mid drive is to not overheat when climbing

Make somethings clear:
ALL of these motors will overheat when running continuesly at more than 250w. This means that the cooling is not sufficient to keep running at high wattage. This is required by law/regulation/standards.

How all those manufacturers deal with this, and I expect this is going to include CYC, is lowering power when the temperature goes above a certain point.

Just because a motor overheats when running 10 minutes at 500W, does not mean it will actually run at 500W. A manufacturer can chose to, instead, run it for 5 minutes at 500W and fall back to 250W. (simplification.

In short:
The overheat is there.
However it will not overheat because it has a temperature sensor.

THis is the primary flaw with the TSDZ2: It lacks a temperature sensor. With a temperature sensor, you can run as many watts through it as you want (within reason ofc).

Sorry to read that you really dont know what you are talking about.I have had several of these motors climbing long steep mountain roads road here in Norway at 110kg.They do not overheat.250w is nothing.The TQ 250w motor is almost as powerful as the Bafang Ultra.
The Tq motor is used in the M1 SPITZING and can do 75 kmh

Please actually read what I wrote...
I'm not saying that the end-user unit overheats, i'm saying the motor will overheat at continued use above 250w. They have thermal-protection which just lowers the actuall wattages (aka: limits peak consumption).

So yet again:
ALL motors sold in the EU for ebikes (not speed-pedelecs!) need to overheat when continued load above 250w is applied. The only way to do so is by temperature based load-regulation (aka: limit wattage at higher temperature).

It's the law and all tests on all EN15194 compliant motors confirm this as well.

This does NOT mean your personal unit will overheat, it will just limit output when the temperature increases too much. You're not wrong, but you're simply not correctly reading what I wrote.

Stop talking down to experts on maters, based on your ancedotal end-user experiences. Your experiences might be valid, but your uneducated conclusions are not.

I'm actually one of the resident experts of EN15194:2017 and wrote many explainatory pieces by now.

Calling me out on not knowning things, is absolutely absurd in this case.

And still you dont understand,makes it even worse

 

[ornias]

And still you dont understand,makes it even worse

By law, EVERY EN15194 motor is required to overheat if used above 250w continuesly.
Period. The testing method is literally referenced in EN15194.
You can throw all sorts of things at it, but that's the law and the regulation and we all have to deal with that

The only solution is to prevent it from running above 250w continuesly. For example by using thermal protection/sensors.

I do get what you're trying to say "my motor does not overheat no mater what I do", that's because the the thermal protection that prevents you from ever actually running above 250w continuesly. Not because the motor can run above 250w continuesly.

---
I want to explain why I'm ignoring the fact, which you brought up, that your motor isn't actually(!) overheating. Because I think that's why the confusion comes up:

The reason I ignore it, is because the above rules, in practice, mean the heat dissipation is 250w max. That's a design limitation, one even the Photon will have to comply to.
I'm pretty sure they are going to have a good temperature sensor and will not actually overheat (obviously, it ain't a TSDZ2!).

But it does mean it's not magically going to be many times more powerfull than other motors in the same market.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

If photon can run at constant 500w for 30min before reaching critical temperature then IT won't be a problem for me (especially now when ambient temp is around 0C). When I commute to work my average motor power is ~300w ( i do not use throttle).

 

[ornias]

If photon can run at constant 500w for 30min before reaching critical temperature then IT won't be a problem for me (especially now when ambient temp is around 0C). When I commute to work my average motor power is ~300w ( i do not use throttle).

Tests are run, from the top of my head, at around 20c somewhere.
So at 0C, I see no reason any 250w continues rated motor cannot do 300w for continued and/or 500w for a reasonable long peak time at that temperature.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0en2qgtF74Y

[youtube]0en2qgtF74Y[/youtube]

 

[pxl666]

this proprietary chainring is a joke ... not being able to use standard 110bcd ...apart from that they could finally release the price. the guy on the video ... everyone who is pedalling not straightening legs seems shady to me ...

 

[Mongo]

For the price, Golden Motor wrote "950 USD" in the comment section - which I presume is for the least expensive display and without battery. That's roughly 1/3 more than the primitive but reliable BBSHD can be had for. January 2023 is the projected release.

Personally, I'm interested in a torque sensing motor, capable of short 1KW peak power bursts, that I can install in a quality steel frame. Maybe by late 2023 / early 2024 I'll know if this motor cuts the mustard.

I don't mind the CYC chainring design, as it offers a much better chain line and a smaller (34T) chain ring than is possible via the Bafang and Tongsheng methods. I do wonder how sealed it is though from water intrusion. Related to EN15194, is it possible that CYC has multiple stators, not unlike the BBS01/BBS02/BBSHD?

So for the heftier price, I think you get

• Torque sensing

• heat management (via thermal dissipation and controlled power cutback)

• less weight

What prevents the motor from rotating around in the BB? I didn't notice any BB shell clamping or separate retainer bracket.

I do like that the cabling comes out of the front of the controller (and up the downtube), but I don't see a dedicated shift sensor plug.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

I'm also wondering why they didn't add extra support like on stealth to prevent rotation of the motor. Looks like a design flaw for me. I suspect that motor will be eventually moving up and down over time. Shift sensor is useless in motor with torque sensor. You just have to reduce preasure on pedals to prevent any damage to chain while changing gear.

 

[Mongo]

I'm concerned about shift sensing while the throttle is buried - I realize the operator should know better, but ya never know.

It looks like brake cutoffs are skipped too.

The video was useful regarding to some of the install nitty-gritty, but left a lot out regarding operation noise (darned knobby tires) and real-world power draw.

 

[Deleted member 82754 (removed by user request)]

(IMO) I found with the low end torque being poor on my X1 Stealth, a gear sensor would be pointless.
Also for me, I would rather it be quiet as opposed to being upgraded with fancy components.
The new controller is still in the bash zone. Can it be relocated as can be done with the X1? What do I do if my BAC855 takes a dump?

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

You can buy x6 controller for stealth gen.1
https://www.cycmotor.com/product-page/cyc-x6-controller-upgrade-kit

 

[Deleted member 82754 (removed by user request)]

After 900 miles i have no adverse wear on my rear casette w/ out the gear sensor.

 

[Mongo]

I'm also wondering why they didn't add extra support like on stealth to prevent rotation of the motor. Looks like a design flaw for me. I suspect that motor will be eventually moving up and down over time.

Well ... a response in the video comments section states that there is no motor position retainer. So I guess that leaves friction pressure between the motor brackets, the large washers, and the BB shell edges.

On my BBS installs, I've always located the motor up on the down tube, using a lower bottle boss screw as a bumper. Then I tighten down the locknut with a 3-foot breaker bar & socket, and the motors have never moved. But I'd agree with you Atak - I won't be surprised to read owners' reports of the motor moving around, and I dislike that CYC forces the location up on the down tube - a position that may not work for all.

In other Photon news, there's a report that the CYC version of the 500C and 750C displays will work with the Photon.