Tabless design cylindrical cells tests

[riba2233]

Finally, some exciting 18650 cells

 

[BlueSwordM]

Man, I should have ordered some EVE 30PL samples in my 50PL order

 

[BatteryMooch]

Man, I should have ordered some EVE 30PL samples in my 50PL order

They’re pretty incredible cells, essentially equal to the JP30 until extreme power levels (I did 100A testing for my Patreon supporters) where one cell has a slight edge. But the 30PL has no manufacturer rating for pulses above its continuous rating.

 

[Kas.becellbattery]

They’re pretty incredible cells, essentially equal to the JP30 until extreme power levels (I did 100A testing for my Patreon supporters) where one cell has a slight edge. But the 30PL has no manufacturer rating for pulses above its continuous rating.

This morning, we conducted tests on our 30PL sample. Its performance under a 60A discharge was much worse than that of JP30. The 30PL could only achieve less than 2000mAh at 60A, while JP30 could reach over 3000mAh.

However, this is not the final version of 30PL. We won't know its performance until it actually goes into mass production. I think the technology of 30PL might not be fully mature yet.

If you have any battery-related needs, please feel free to contact me.

 

[adam.trzaskowski87]

The 30PL could only achieve less than 2000mAh at 60A, while JP30 could reach over 3000mAh.

Are you sure there no error in this statement?
"JP30 can deliver over 3000mAh at 60A?" - reference capacity, normally measured at 1C or less, delivered at top discharge?
In Mooch's test at 40A JP40 delivered 2,75Ah, Eve30pl with CCC logo somewhat more

 

[Kas.becellbattery]

Are you sure there no error in this statement?
"JP30 can deliver over 3000mAh at 60A?" - reference capacity, normally measured at 1C or less, delivered at top discharge?
In Mooch's test at 40A JP40 delivered 2,75Ah, Eve30pl with CCC logo somewhat more

Continue discharging (while also providing charging) under the 60A condition until the temperature becomes too high. This indicates that JP30 can fully support a discharge of 60A.
However, the data of JP30 is relatively old. Our engineers conducted a comparison of the military-grade products 30HR and 30PL at 10A and 60A this morning.
We have saved the 10A test data. However, the 60A 30PL is unable to complete the full test.

 

[Elios.pk]

Does someone knows anything about the Molicel P60C ? We can't see well on their latest linkedin post but I never seen it before. I wonder how it differs from the M65A and P60B.

I also wonder when will we have a decent 6Ah+ cell available to order this year (Vapcell F60 not included since garbage tbh). Many company teased some but not one official test yet.

 

[BlueSwordM]

Does someone knows anything about the Molicel P60C ? We can't see well on their latest linkedin post but I never seen it before. I wonder how it differs from the M65A and P60B.

I also wonder when will we have a decent 6Ah+ cell available to order this year (Vapcell F60 not included since garbage tbh). Many company teased some but not one official test yet.

View attachment 377172

Enhanced thermal conductivity and capacity = they're 100% using an aluminium casing instead of nickel plated steel.

 

[BatteryMooch]

Does someone knows anything about the Molicel P60C ?

No one knows anything yet, just what the placard says.
Looks like a typical evolutionary step beyond its predecessor the P60B. Its “enhanced thermal conductivity for safety” can mean a lot of things. Hopefully we get more info in a few months and samples in maybe a year. Hopefully we can buy them in a couple of years.

 

[BatteryMooch]

Enhanced thermal conductivity and capacity = they're 100% using an aluminium casing instead of stainless steel.

But...but…no one uses stainless steel.

 

[BlueSwordM]

But...but…no one uses stainless steel.

Oops, thank you for catching my mistake.

Aluminium is still lighter, 4x more thermally conductive and 6x more electrically conductive, so I am not surprised that Molicel is offering a more difficult to weld, higher performance version of the P60B.

 

[BatteryMooch]

Our engineers conducted a comparison of the military-grade products 30HR and 30PL at 10A and 60A this morning.

“Military grade” is a useless marketing term that means nothing.
The Lithonic 30HR and EVE 30PL are standard commercial cells. Please list the military standards that these cells comply with as I am sure you’d never stoop to using the term “military grade” unless they passed the testing for those standards.

 

[BatteryMooch]

Aluminium is still lighter, 4x more thermally conductive and 6x more electrically conductive, so I am not surprised that Molicel is offering a more difficult to weld, higher performance version of the P60B.

Just curious…where did you see that aluminum was being used? Especially since it would have to be thicker (leaving less room for the jellyroll) to equal the strength of a (nickel-plated) steel can.

It would be quite a step for Moli but they might be getting their cans from a different source if true.

 

[BatteryMooch]

This morning, we conducted tests on our 30PL sample. Its performance under a 60A discharge was much worse than that of JP30. The 30PL could only achieve less than 2000mAh at 60A, while JP30 could reach over 3000mAh.

This is completely different from my test results. And I tested the unknown grade LT 19660A version of the EVE JP30P1 too and the same 30PL batch that you show on your web site.

You have the 30PL on pre-order but show the JP30 in stock. Do you have a large stock of JP30?

 

[BlueSwordM]

Just curious…where did you see that aluminum was being used? Especially since it would have to be thicker (leaving less room for the jellyroll) to equal the strength of a (nickel-plated) steel can.

It would be quite a step for Moli but they might be getting their cans from a different source if true.

Well, considering they say it has enhanced thermal conductivity (for more safety since thermal gradients are greatly reduced with Al), a more thermally conductive casing would be my first bet as to how they achieved it, and it would explain also why gravimetric energy density increases; aluminium, even with a thicker casing, is so much lighter than steel that it can increase that figure by 5%.

Also IR is lower, so that's the thrid clue.

As for volumetric energy and casing strength, there do exist new manufacturers that utilize special aluminium alloys to make those casings much stronger while not increasing thickness as much. I'll have to look it up before saying anything definitive about the specific properties.

 

[BatteryMooch]

Well, considering they say it has enhanced thermal conductivity (for more safety since thermal gradients are greatly reduced with Al), a more thermally conductive casing would be my first bet as to how they achieved it

Ahhh….thanks. You were 100% sure so I thought you had seen confirmation from Moli or a tester. Yea, it will be interesting to learn all the details about this cell!

 

[Kas.becellbattery]

This is completely different from my test results. And I tested the unknown grade LT 19660A version of the EVE JP30P1 too and the same 30PL batch that you show on your web site.

You have the 30PL on pre-order but show the JP30 in stock. Do you have a large stock of JP30?

We learned from the internal channels of EVE that the official start of mass production for EVE 30PL is not that imminent. Additionally, regarding the test results of EVE 30PL, I suspect that some of them might not have started mass production due to this reason. In fact, I'm not sure. If you have specific data that you can provide to me, I will inquire with our engineers at an appropriate time.

 

[Kas.becellbattery]

Does someone knows anything about the Molicel P60C ? We can't see well on their latest linkedin post but I never seen it before. I wonder how it differs from the M65A and P60B.

I also wonder when will we have a decent 6Ah+ cell available to order this year (Vapcell F60 not included since garbage tbh). Many company teased some but not one official test yet.

View attachment 377172

At present, there is no information about it. I think it is still in the development stage? 6000mAh battery I know have FEB INR21700 6000

 

[ZEUS-FL]

Are you sure there no error in this statement?
"JP30 can deliver over 3000mAh at 60A?" - reference capacity, normally measured at 1C or less, delivered at top discharge?
In Mooch's test at 40A JP40 delivered 2,75Ah, Eve30pl with CCC logo somewhat more

I also have completely different results. Both cells perform very similar withe 30PL with small better numbers.

 

[Elios.pk]

At present, there is no information about it. I think it is still in the development stage? 6000mAh battery I know have FEB INR21700 6000

Isn't the FEB 6AH battery the same as the Vapcell F60 ? From what I heard, this battery is not rated for it's 100% DOD (4.2-2.5V) and is not very stable. It can barely handle 13A

 

[BatteryMooch]

Isn't the FEB 6AH battery the same as the Vapcell F60 ? From what I heard, this battery is not rated for it's 100% DOD (4.2-2.5V) and is not very stable. It can barely handle 13A

Just curious…what are you referring to when you say the F60 is “garbage”, “not very stable”, and “can barely handle 13A”?

The FEB 6000mAh 21700 does indeed have a 4.20V to 2.75V range for its cycle life spec but FEB’s discharge graphs for it go down to 2.5V. I couldn’t find a full datasheet. The F60 is rated down to 2.5V too but that’s Vapcell’s rating.

 

[BlueSwordM]

PDF dump:

https://product.tdk.com/system/files/dam/doc/content/event/2022/exproducts/ceatec2024_05_01.pdf

JP50 is coming.
Also IR graph at -10C is what's most interesting for the JP40.

 

[BlueSwordM]

@BatteryMooch When you have the time, do you think you could measure the DC IR for the Molicel P50B and EVE 40PL at -10C? That would certaintly be very interesting to compare about the JP40.

 

[BatteryMooch]

@BatteryMooch When you have the time, do you think you could measure the DC IR for the Molicel P50B and EVE 40PL at -10C? That would certaintly be very interesting to compare about the JP40.

Hmm…would be interesting indeed. I can get them to about -11°C to -16°C in my freezer.
Prettty swamped with patron requests but will see if I can, might take a while. I’m thinking 30PL, P30B, and JP30 instead though, since I have all three here.

I can replicate Ampace’s stated test conditions, and hope we can compare results from the P50B and 40PL fairly, but it would be a lot better IMO if all cells were tested here under the same conditions.

 

[Pajda]

Just curious…what are you referring to when you say the F60 is “garbage”, “not very stable”, and “can barely handle 13A”?

The FEB 6000mAh 21700 does indeed have a 4.20V to 2.75V range for its cycle life spec but FEB’s discharge graphs for it go down to 2.5V. I couldn’t find a full datasheet. The F60 is rated down to 2.5V too but that’s Vapcell’s rating.

I think those unpleasant words were directed at FEB, not Vapcell. I have heard similar things about FEB production from two sellers. But unlike Vapcell's production, I haven't had a chance to test FEB yet.