police e-bike crackdown

[LeoSuperMoin]

We've had several inquiries here in Oz about e-rideables, and to the WA Government's credit, they did not come out and say "Ban 'em!" like many in the peanut gallery had hoped. What it did highlight is the regulatory blank spot between compliant e-bikes and e-rideables (generally 250 W, and/or 25 km/h top speed without pedaling) and mopeds or motorcycles (those capable of a top speed of 50 km/h+). Mopeds and motorcycles need to be registered, licensed and carry compulsory third party insurance. It's not expensive, but you do need a roadworthy bike. The rider must wear a full face helmet and have a motorcycle license of the appropriate standing.

These bikes that slip between the cracks can do say, 40 km/h. They are not licensed, nor do they require the rider to have any license. They are illegal to operate on shared paths AND public roads. So one idea is to register them as a one-off, typically point of sale) and require the rider to at least have a motorcycle learner's permit. That way there's some modicum of road sense implied.

Appropriate regulation is fine. Its either that, or try to ban them. And banning fun stuff has a long history of failing.

Banning something because a few idiots crash is stupid as you already said. We shouldn't ban sports cars because a few people crash them.

In the eu it is generally
25kph 250w over 30 min / 600w peak (excluding austria which has no peak limit) classified as a bicycle
45kph 4000w over 30 min / no peak this requires a moped license which you can get at 15 years old and costs around 400€.
you have to only wear a bicycle helmet (gas moped need a motorcycle helmet and 50kph limit) but you do need registration, insurance and tiny little license plates. all together it's under 50€ per year.

this makes you accountable for speeding (speed cameras) and your license can be taken away if you drive like a idiot.

i currently live in austria and am quite happy with the fact that there isn't a limit on peak power which allows you to build 25kph limited bikes that can use the bbshd or cyc x1 pro gen 4 without being illegal.

by far the biggest issue are the e motorcycles like the surron. there can be simple laws that would solve a lot of the issues of 13 year olds riding surrons with 50mph on the streets.

<25kph bicycle/pedelec
25-45kph spedelec (speed pedelec, throtle only till 25kph above pedaling, only bicycle helmet required with registration)
<50kph emoped (throtle till 50kph no pedals needed, registration and motorcycle helmet needed)
over 50kph it's and electric motorcycle at which point it needs all the same requirements as a regular motorcycle.

 

[docw009]

My grandkid has been riding my ebikes since she could reach the pedals. Prior to that, she would only ride about a mile, My town recently raised the ebike (and scooter) age to 16, so she cannot ride with us any more in my town, but we can go a few miles away and be legal. This really hurts the pre-teens I see using scooters to get around. Probably best for their safety though, I used to see them making wide turns around our corners last May, but by July, they had learned to stay in their lanes.

My motorcycle license was added with my drivers license on request, A test was not needed then, They allowed me to keep it at every renewal and still have it even though I sold my motorcycle 50 years ago, Took a ride on a bike 20 years ago, STill knew how to do it. We had a mandatory retest for old drivers coming up, but they removed the requirement. Good, I was wondering if I could pass the part where you back up the car, as it's tough to turn the old neck, plus windows are small. My current car has a rear camera and lidar to help me do that.

 

[jonescg]

this makes you accountable for speeding (speed cameras) and your license can be taken away if you drive like a idiot.

...

by far the biggest issue are the e motorcycles like the surron. there can be simple laws that would solve a lot of the issues of 13 year olds riding surrons with 50mph on the streets.

<25kph bicycle/pedelec
25-45kph spedelec (speed pedelec, throtle only till 25kph above pedaling, only bicycle helmet required with registration)
<50kph emoped (throtle till 50kph no pedals needed, registration and motorcycle helmet needed)
over 50kph it's and electric motorcycle at which point it needs all the same requirements as a regular motorcycle.

Yes, at least there is an understanding that these devices mean one less car, and that's a good thing.
So requiring a little bit of accountability and insurance is a small price to pay, considering the alternative is outright prohibition.

 

[wturber]

This is one of the scenarios. Another scenario is when the driver reacts on the pedestrian and loses control and hits someone or something else who is not responsible for the accident.

Things like this are rare. When pedestrians make mistakes the typical result is harm to the pedestrian. When drivers make mistakes they quite frequently cause harm to some other driver, pedestrian or bicycle. This is why cars are so much more heavily regulated. I could make a stronger argument for greater car regulation than I could for greater ebike regulation. But we are already normalized and have accepted the risk from cars. People aren't generally good at risk analysis. This is why casinos get rich. But they are good at noticing short term changes. Hence the annoyance and over reaction to ebikes. Even the worst of the "ebike" offenders - Surrons and the like - are far less of a concern than tall SUVs that block the view of pedestrians and drivers playing with their cell phones while driving. Pedestrian deaths due to automobiles are on the rise. Deaths to other caused by ebike riders are almost non-existent.

 

[wturber]

If the evidence supports it, I'd consider exempting the 'class 1' ebikes, although not all jurisdictions make this distinction. But I would maintain the minimum age - that's about maturity in all cases, and need.

I disagree with much of what you said. But in order to get an idea of where your thinking comes from and to keep it simple, Please explain why you would make an exception for Class 1 ebikes but not Class 2 ebikes.

 

[wturber]

Yes, at least there is an understanding that these devices mean one less car, and that's a good thing.
So requiring a little bit of accountability and insurance is a small price to pay, considering the alternative is outright prohibition.

It may be a small price to pay, but why should any price be paid when the external risk to others is so low? Next thing I'll need a license to breathe and insurance just to go out in public.

 

[TPEHAK]

Insurance (mandatory liability insurance) for vehicles mostly resolves the issue cars bumps each other extremely often and deal to each other extremely expensive damage (cars are very expensive) and not being insured people behavior on the roads, hit and run, road rage, violence and stuff will come to extreme, and a lot of unlucky peoples instant losses will be huge. Mandatory insurance for electric bicycles regulates nothing and resolves nothing, it is just money waste for most of the people. Even for motorcycles insurance is only up to the rider.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Please explain why you would make an exception for Class 1 ebikes but not Class 2 ebikes.

I tossed off my reply without much actual consideration of the class requirements. They aren't always applicable in all jurisdictions. My only reason for suggesting this (very loosely) was the idea that it might be necessary to get enough votes for the overall scheme of requiring a driver's license when operating any motor powered vehicle in a public (shared) space.

Some applicable requirement of maturity is the solution to poor riders. We have the problem of eliminating poor riders of cars, so we have all the incentive we need to work towards this. Societies in general accept age as a marker of maturity, so I can expect them to accept it as a marker of maturity for ebike riders, and that's why I suggest it, with a driver's license as an already-established method of expecting maturity. Examples of how our current approach licensing fail to ensure maturity can be, and should be, handled by changing the process so it does not fail. But the approach is already in place and we must use something like it - so let's use it.

This isn't about children's innocence. It's not about 'taking away rights'. It's about not lying. Children, and some people past the age of being a child, can't or won't maintain their own responsibility. We must admit this, and act in light of that. Trying to find some 'magic formula' that prevents trouble without reference to this wastes time and resources and won't last, because it's not what is actually happening. It's arbitrarily applied, and arbitrarily wrong.

In time, if offering some exception such as permitting children to use a less capable powered vehicle was necessary to bring in the license requirement for the more capable ones, then it would be a stepping stone towards dealing with reality - it's about maturity. Refining the matter can happen later once the thinking is changed and the principle is established.

Don't split hairs about the license class - that's more of that 'magic', prescriptive thinking. I think the only way we'll attain widespread ebike use involves changing the conversations from "why can't my kids have an ebike?!" to "this is about maturity, and we will insist on that from everyone - in self defense".

 

[jonescg]

It may be a small price to pay, but why should any price be paid when the external risk to others is so low? Next thing I'll need a license to breathe and insurance just to go out in public.

Well, the risk might be low, but it's not insignificant. We've had people being killed doing things on machines that didn't exist a few years ago, so we are right to take stock of that.

A motorcycle and rider with a combined mass of say, 230 kg moving at more than 50 km/h has enough kinetic energy to kill someone, so the expectation is that if you want to ride on public roads:
- The machine be roadworthy, including functional brakes, lights and horn, and registered as such.
- The rider be competent and therefore be required to have passed some kind of license assessment.
- The rider needs a minimum level of PPE (usually a helmet).
- An identifying plate means if a rider breaks their social contact and acts recklessly, there's some level of accountability.
- The vehicle carries compulsory third party insurance - usually part of the registration cost, which covers the ongoing cost of care when bad stuff happens but it's impossible to apportion blame. All Australians states and territories include this in your annual vehicle registration fees, and our very good public health system is supported in part by this premium.

If the bike and rider doesn't meet these conditions, it should be rectified so that it does. If not, you're already breaking the law.

We already have this registration system in place - it's called the DMV / DoT / whatever. Now that we have a new wave of motorcycles which fall outside the usual system, and we have an opportunity to either ban them (good luck with that) or bring them into the current system. Won't stop dumb people from doing dumb things, but at least some of them will be called out for it and held accountable.

I don't think anyone, even the Betty Ban-em's thinks e-bikes should be insured, licensed and so on. We're talking about things with a combined weight of 100 kg and crack 32 km/h on a good day. The risk of harm on these bikes is very low.

But heavier bikes that can go faster (but not as heavy or fast as a motorcycle) fall between the cracks. Things like Sur-Runs, Phasors and anything that can achieve 50 km/h might as well be licensed as a moped so they can ride on the road like the rest of us. If they can go faster, they should be licensed as a motorcycle. This process is not complicated, and it's not expensive. One suggestion was that anyone riding them should be over the age of 16, and at the very least, hold a motorcycle rider learners permit, This is a theory test of the road rules, and assesses your base understanding of motorcycles. Its a low bar, but better than knowing nothing and its valid for 3 years.

 

[yooper2001]

I agree with Jonescg. 99 percent of the problem by me is kids under 16. I believe if they drive on the public road, they need to know the rules of the road, and be held accountable if they don't. Issue ebike permits to kids wanting to ride anything but a class 1. No license or permit? Take the bike. Too many infractions? Take the bike. I'm sure if the parents had to go to court for tickets, the bike would get taken. I asked several of these kids riding class 3 and above 'ebikes' and they had no clue on the basic rules covered by a driving test! That's dangerous!, Don't take ebikes off the road. Take the untrained morons off the road.

 

[vklurk]

This isn't quite here or there, but I have long felt that if schools are going to have required gym classes, they might as well make some of them into cycling classes, starting on a paved track and ending with the rules of road cycling, as well as different types of cycling infrastructure.

The rules of the road are a skill nearly everyone needs to learn; even people who never ride a bike as adults will benefit from having some empathy for what it's like trying to navigate auto-sized infrastructure on a human-powered or human-electric hybrid vehicle; and everyone will benefit if there's greater standardization in how people ride bicycles.

 

[dgc]

It comes in the area of parental control or should I say no control, be it to stick a child in front of a computer, an iPad or mobile, then the parents can keep up to-date doing exactly the same. I have spoken to a few kids when out and about who are riding 26" wheeled hard tails with 500w / 750w rear hub motors using 16" frames, their comment is dad got for me to ride.

 

[dgc]

Yes, the primary schools over here do basic riding skills for cyclists, which include stopping a junctions, hand signals, road sense etc etc for which one gets a proficiency certificate. But an e-bike is another game.

 

[n00b]

As I have said elsewhere here in the UK police became very interested in E-bikes and E-scooters in main city centers when masked riders move from stealing motor scooters to using E-bikes and E-scooters for robberies going for mobile phones, handbags, stealing from shops etc etc. Police clocked one at 45 mph in London. So you have to be 14 or old and any E-bike over 250 watts and 15.5 mph will be crushed, if you have driving license you get done for no mot, no insurance , unregistered motor vehicle etc etc, as they are deemed as electric motorcycles. Police now have a task force go into a city for a day checking every E-bike or E-scooter they come across, I forgot what actual number was but in one day they confiscated over 100, a number was from fast food delivery riders.

Sounds very oppressive.

 

[n00b]

Never stated or even implied It can't be done... of course it's being done. Your decision to risk your own life & limb on your private property, or during a well controlled competitive venue... isn't the beef here. It's the foolishness on public streets.... Correction... populated and unpredictable public streets... that I have a beef with.



I'd welcome your numbers.
Just bare-in-mind; While you can limit the rear wheel from aerial exercises by stuffing a 11-13lb mass in the rear wheel, (which obviously allows greater application of the front brake), you also added, at lease, 30-35 lbs additional mass that those same brakes need to overcome. Personally I think it's a wash.
The average (but decent quality) bicycle w/experienced rider would be doing exceptionally well to pull 0.5g's deceleration. That's well below average for nearly any of today's street motorcycles (One recent article I just reviewed, stated a Harley topped the list of a half dozen random examples, pulled cool 0.9g's decel).

My 1000W rear hub motor bike goes 36 m.p.h. and stops on a dime.

It decelerates very fast. Yeah, that's the best stopper.
203mm front rotor with mechanical disc brakes.

 

[dgc]

n00b, always built my e-bikes with 9 speed cassette setups but more importantly with hydraulic brakes with 180mm front and 160mm rear rotors, currently gone to frames which accept suspension forks with tapered steerer tubes. Latest forks I have got are Rockshox which would take 220mm. This is one of the reasons why police are after home built e-bikes regarding the build quality and power output.

 

[RunForTheHills]

This is one of the reasons why police are after home built e-bikes regarding the build quality and power output.

I think that is mostly a UK or EU thing. I haven't noticed them targeting DIY bikes in California if you don't ride them like a hooligan.

 

[amberwolf]

Each locality and culture is different...so the specific problems caused in those areas by prior teaching and behaviors are different.

Here in the USA, at least in the valley of the sun around phoenix, arizona, there are no regulations that would help with any of them, because the people themselves that are teaching *are* the problem.

The adults who should be providing a constant example of how to respect others, to interact with them safely and nicely, don't do any of those things. Sure, some do, but many don't, and they also don't see that there is any problem with that, at all.

So the problem is spread to others who learn to disrespect others and interact with them unsafely and meanly, and have no consideration at all for how anyone else might feel about that, or what happens to anyone else because of what they do.


Until that problem is solved, there are NO regulatory things that can be done to change anything.



It isn't just about road use, it is about everything.

The problems I see with others range from drivers (and all other road users, but especially drivers) on the wrong side of the road, not staying in one lane, or even in the same place in that lane, not paying attention (or caring) about any other road user, not signalling their intention or signaling something they aren't actually going to do, going far faster (or occasionally slower) than the intended speed of that road, running lights, and generally being very impatient.

Parking in front of driveways, no-parking areas, blocking access for any other people to necessary things (in public places and here in my neighborhood, including blocking my driveway with disabled vehicles, leaving vehicles sitting unattended in the middle of the street, sometimes with doors and trunk/hood open and blaring earthquake-level sound shaking everything for blocks around, etc).

A secondary thing related to the above is if they want to park somewhere they'll move other people's stuff just so they can do that--if you have put out your trash or recycle bin, theyll shove that into your yard or driveway (often dumping it) and park there instead. (so I can't recycle anything anymore and have to throw everything away in the big bin in the alley).

There's laws and regulations against all of these things. Those doing them often enough interact with LEO about them, and they don't change their behavior one bit. They already knew they were wrong, but they don't care.


I could probably go on for pages, but it doesn't matter--the point is that regulation won't fix anything. It won't stop the people that do the shitty and/or unsafe things. They're going to do it anyway.

It will only stop the poeple that were already obeying the rules to start with.


You can't regulate or legislate people into giving a crap about each other.

 

[dgc]

I think that is mostly a UK or EU thing. I haven't noticed them targeting DIY bikes in California if you don't ride them like a hooligan.

You may be right, but you need to see some of the concoctions I have seem, batteries and controllers held on with gaffer tape along with bird nest wiring. There is no need as then are so many different mounting systems available nowadays for fitting batteries and controllers and they are not that expensive.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

even people who never ride a bike as adults will benefit from having

Not directed at you, but rather starting from this concept. Just pointing out something else...

Even people who never need to acquire a Driver's License must still follow the road rules.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Sounds very oppressive.

When someone else's actions step on my life, it stops being a matter of personal freedom and becomes a matter of public boundaries.

If people won't police themselves, then the rest of us will start policing them in self defense. This is an ordinary part of living together in a society, and it has happened in various forms for as long as groups have gathered. It's not new.

 

[Risky Rob]

When someone else's actions step on my life, it stops being a matter of personal freedom and becomes a matter of public boundaries.

If people won't police themselves, then the rest of us will start policing them in self defense. This is an ordinary part of living together in a society, and it has happened in various forms for as long as groups have gathered. It's not new.

Crushing an ebike over 250W seems oppressive to Americans. I would hate to live in a society where people think they can police me.

 

[ZeroEm]

YES!!!!

 

[TPEHAK]

Imagine 250W nonsense in Hawaii where the people are not even obligated to wear helmets. What a lawless society, how dare they do such things and live happy live!

 

[jonescg]

Imagine 250W nonsense in Hawaii where the people are not even obligated to wear helmets. What a lawless society, how dare they do such things and live happy live!

Because that act doesn't impact others like reckless riding might. Also, you guys don't have universal healthcare, so you can't even claim that his post-accident brain care is costing society. And even if you did, a civilised society would support him all the same.