police e-bike crackdown

[docw009]

If you only take bikes with electric drive, people over the age of 65 cause a good 80 per cent of all turning accidents. 40 per cent of them are even older than 80.

Dinah Shore's "Buttons and Bows" was a big hit on the radio the year I was born. I follow the over 70 ebiker groups on facebook, It is amazing how many senior ebikers are falling over and crashing, and not ashamed to be reporting those incidents.

Then again, I have offered test ebike runs to three guys I have known for 50 years since college and all three fell over. Physical limits. Bad hips. Poor eyesight. Only one got back up and mastered it. Yikes, I am lucky I am still on two wheels.

 

[ebola]

I, for one, welcome our new Gestapo overlords!!

Just kidding.

long ass text below

My take on this (having had bikes as my only form of transportation since 2007-8 or so, doing maybe 6000km/year, and just recently getting my first ebike):

I think the speed limits are silly. I average 25km/h when I go "as slow as I can" (Basically "lowest acceptable effort cruising speed"). I mean you have this built in tempo that you need to ride at, as your slowest speed/effort. And for me this is 25. And my top speed on my commutes is between 45-55km/h.
On my summer bikes (real road bikes) I average 28-32 or so on my commutes. A few years ago it was 12km long. Now shorter, but much less flat.

So for me 25km/h on an ebike, its like standing still, it would be competely useless to me. I go faster on a conventional bike!
But now I have a 250w (at least) motor on top of my own 25km/h power. So whats the deal here really?? Yeah, really??

My ebike does 45km/h (28mph), and it was built for that from the factory, its a speed pedelec (and as you all know very well by now, Specialized is the best bike brand ever, in the entire world, and most likely, the entire fukking universe; or multiverse if it turns out thats the case (you never know)).

And for me, for an ebike to make any sense at all, and I mean at. fukking. all. It has has to be significantly faster than a conventional bike. And this one is. I now average 38-39,5km/h on "eco30", and 40-40,5 on "turbo" (turbo is also a small town close to Hedemora in Sweden). Best run was 42,5 average over 10km. And thats about the max I'm able to get out of it, my avg pulse on that ride was 152, and my regular avg pulse is 139-141 on my commutes (non powered rides). So yeah I was really hammering it.
If this bike only ran 25km/h then I could just throw this shit in the dump. No joke.

I think they should increase the limit to 35km/h on the "slow pedelecs", and then maybe 55 for the speed pedelecs. Then it would actually make sense.

Yeah I know, I'm a bad person, a bad human being. But I have heard from people that I have other good qualities somehow.

On my conventional bikes the only law I abide to is "never, ever, stop". Because then the avg speed drops to 0. And you dont want that.

 

[neptronix]

I feel like european laws are pretty draconian and overly restrictive and i wouldn't like to see them replicated in the USA. It would force me back into a car for commuting, because i have long distances in the suburbs to cover, many that don't have bike lanes, so you either go car road speeds on occasion, or you go home.

Our huge oil and automobile industry would probably like to see that happen most because they have a history of crushing any alternate form of transportation. They'd lock hands with the 'think of the children' types if some effort to overly restrict small electric transport were to develop. I'm glad it hasn't, here.

My thought? if you're a respectful rider, no victim - no crime.

For everyone outside of that range? we have traffic laws and they can still be enforced for a bicycle without plates. I know, i've got a rare bicycle ticket once in California for riding on the opposite side of the road. Traffic laws are enforceable and choking out a new vehicle type is lazy legislation.

 

[stancecoke]

It has has to be significantly faster than a conventional bike

That's exactly the point. An "EPAC" is a bike in legal issues in Europe. So it has to behave like a bike with limited power and limited speed. You can ride faster and stronger E-Bikes legally in Europe, but you have to have an insurance and a driving licence then, as it's a bike no longer. That's fair I think.

 

[2old]

As above, never underestimate the power of the oil industry. They killed mopeds in CA with excessive legislation in the 80's and who knows what's next.

 

[dgc]

So what should we do with these groups of sport cyclists we have going along the country lanes bowling along at 18 - 20 mph, should we put a speed limit on them, I own up in my time I use to road race on my Urago sprint bike, now my engine is a bit clapped out I ride an e-bike and on the flat they come past me with ease but I do catch them up again on the hill climbs.

 

[4πr^2]

...
And for me, for an ebike to make any sense at all, and I mean at. fukking. all. It has has to be significantly faster than a conventional bike. ...

I think this is the exact sentiment that leads to all the draconian laws. People want an ebike to be "significantly faster" ...but then they want to ride on walkways, trails, bike paths, pedestrian zones, etc ....with normal walkers/bikers, but at 50,60, 70 kph or more. If all ebikes were somehow 'same speed' but much easier effort, then hardly anyone would care because they would just blend in with all other bikes.

 

[stancecoke]

So what should we do with these groups of sport cyclists we have going along the country lanes bowling along at 18 - 20 mph

Nothing, just let them go. You can go 18-20 mph with an EPAC legally also, but you have to pedal it without the help of the motor.
No normal trained person is able to pedal 18-20 mph over a longer distance. So why should that be the level for a vehicle, that is a bike in legal issues?
I think most normal trained people will ride 10 to 14 mph in the flat without a motor.

 

[dgc]

Yep that is quite right 10 - 14 mph, but at my best I was riding / training 5 days a week so had no problem with 20 mph on the flat others in the group I was with could hold 25 mph, I was more a longer distance rider.

 

[ebola]

I think this is the exact sentiment that leads to all the draconian laws. People want an ebike to be "significantly faster" ...but then they want to ride on walkways, trails, bike paths, pedestrian zones, etc ....with normal walkers/bikers, but at 50,60, 70 kph or more. If all ebikes were somehow 'same speed' but much easier effort, then hardly anyone would care because they would just blend in with all other bikes.

Well I can only give you my POV. and that is: I ride faster than 25km/h average on my regular bikes. Sometimes a lot faster. So for me being limited to 25 on a bike with 250w more power is not appealing.

I can run my road bikes on the sidewalk at 55 if i want to, no laws against that. But common sense prevents me from doing that. I go maybe 15 on the sidewalk. and if its crowded I might only go 5.
But I can go 45!

Why can't I go 45 on an unregisted ebike here, if I really wanted?? Whats the difference here?

With that being said I usually ride on special bike lanes, or in the road (with the cars) even on my regular bikes. Sidewalks are not for riding bikes in my country, they are for pedestrians, and if you want to ride on them you do so at walking pace basically.

I just think the speed limits are bullshit. 25 on an ebike is nothing. Its too slow. Thats it. EVERYONE that own an ebike here removes that restriction, everyone! Because its simply too frocking slow. Even for non cyclist people. And that tells you this: they need to make them faster legally, from the factory. The law is one thing, what people actually do and think is another thing, and if no one abides to a certain law, that means that that law is WRONG, and need to be changed.

For me personally, I dont really care, doesn't concern me at all. I didn't really follow any laws or regulations even on my conventional bikes and never have.

 

[ebola]

Maybe if the limits were 35 for unregistered bikes and 55 for plated and registered ones people wouldn't hotrod them. Just saying.

 

[ebola]

Nothing, just let them go. You can go 18-20 mph with an EPAC legally also, but you have to pedal it without the help of the motor.
No normal trained person is able to pedal 18-20 mph over a longer distance. So why should that be the level for a vehicle, that is a bike in legal issues?
I think most normal trained people will ride 10 to 14 mph in the flat without a motor.

20 mph is what 32km/h, thats not uncommon for people to average if they are quite well trained, at least for 10-20km. I've met several that would easily cruise at 32, like it was nothing, and for me its quite hard, and I can only keep up for maybe 10-15 minutes. There is a race here 300km long, 8h is a good time. Thats 40km/h. For 8 hours straight. 6,5h thats 48 average. And yes people actually do this.

 

[Papa]

being limited to 25 on a bike with 250w more power is not appealing.

That's why motorcycles are readily available... for 'little' boys... who wish to become responsible 'big' boys.

I didn't really follow any laws or regulations even on my conventional bikes

NOBODY,... escapes the 'laws' of physics. You can learn all about it in the classroom... or the hospital.

Conventional bicycles were n-e-v-e-r originally designed for motors... or speeds much greater than about 25mph. The wheelbase is too short, and the CoM is excessively too high... causing the brakes to ultimately become useless. Dictated by the 'laws' of physics.

 

[rafalg]

if you're quite well trained and can go over 30 km/h just pedaling then it also means your riding technique is quite good, you know how to handle turning and braking at such speed, shift body balance etc, because you've been practicing for quite a while.
On electric bike you can go faster than that on a first ride...
BTW today i've seen a guy on a motorbike hit a car - some mistake at not so high speed (around 50-60km/h). Didn't seem very violent, but he ended up with badly broken leg. The human body is not built to withstand impacts at 50 km/h.

 

[neptronix]

Conventional bicycles were n-e-v-e-r originally designed for motors... or speeds much greater than about 25mph. The wheelbase is too short, and the CoM is excessively too high... causing the brakes to ultimately become useless. Dictated by the 'laws' of physics.

There exist subclasses of conventional bicycles that are ridden downhill at 40-60mph and these do handle large amounts of power very well

You can get way more than adequate braking with a mid to large size DD hub, even at those speeds.

Risks are within shooting distance of a motorcycle.

Not made for it doesn't mean not capable of it

 

[ebola]

That's why motorcycles are readily available... for 'little' boys... who wish to become responsible 'big' boys.


NOBODY,... escapes the 'laws' of physics. You can learn all about it in the classroom... or the hospital.

Conventional bicycles were n-e-v-e-r originally designed for motors... or speeds much greater than about 25mph. The wheelbase is too short, and the CoM is excessively too high... causing the brakes to ultimately become useless. Dictated by the 'laws' of physics.

I was actually attending. Got a 5 as final grade. I understand the laws of psysics. i know a lot of physics somehow. Even how nukes actually work, why they work, and the efficiency, and why that is and so on.

I'd say a well built bike is good for 70km/h so continous speed. No shit.

My bikes are. At least. I built them all from scratch. I have 2 italian handmade steel bikes (colnago master and de rosa nuovo classico). New production, brazed with lugs. And then a chromag sakura, with rigid short fork, maybe 72,5 hta. And then a lynskey ti cx bike. All of them are built from frame up, not a single frocking component was put there by accident. Everything is chosen for the task at hand. Even individual bolts. Just lubing and greasing everything up to spec for my needs takes 8h when building a bike.

I wouldn't shit my pants going 100km/h on any of these and neither would I be worried that they could somehow explose spontaneously somehow. Its not gonna frocking happen, ever.

now

Thats what I do when I build my bikes. I trust these with my life. So I better frocking make sure they work and dont break down randomly. Because I go as fast as I physiacally can quite often on them. 50-55km/h or so. And I enjoy that. I wish I could go faster but gravity is only so strong on this planet unfortunately. If I could go 100km/h on these, I would, at any given opportunity.

That being said, yeah most over the counter bikes are not good for 100km/h. Or even 50. But my shit is, so I have a different opinion.

 

[ebola]

I'd say 70-100km/h would be a reasonable speed limit for ebikes. For the powerful ones that is.

 

[ebola]

or 200 mph. yeah the end user deciedes. what about that?? they gonna do that anyway.

 

[Papa]

There exist subclasses of conventional bicycles that are ridden downhill at 40-60mph and these do handle large amounts of power very well

You can get way more than adequate braking with a mid to large size DD hub, even at those speeds.

Risks are within shooting distance of a motorcycle.

Not made for it doesn't mean not capable of it

Never stated or even implied It can't be done... of course it's being done. Your decision to risk your own life & limb on your private property, or during a well controlled competitive venue... isn't the beef here. It's the foolishness on public streets.... Correction... populated and unpredictable public streets... that I have a beef with.

You can get way more than adequate braking with a mid to large size DD hub, even at those speeds.

I'd welcome your numbers.
Just bare-in-mind; While you can limit the rear wheel from aerial exercises by stuffing a 11-13lb mass in the rear wheel, (which obviously allows greater application of the front brake), you also added, at lease, 30-35 lbs additional mass that those same brakes need to overcome. Personally I think it's a wash.
The average (but decent quality) bicycle w/experienced rider would be doing exceptionally well to pull 0.5g's deceleration. That's well below average for nearly any of today's street motorcycles (One recent article I just reviewed, stated a Harley topped the list of a half dozen random examples, pulled cool 0.9g's decel).

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Why can't I go 45 on an unregisted ebike here

Because you didn't put in the work of organizing with your fellow citizens to set the laws to what they should be.

It's not someone else's responsibility to be a citizen for you.

Or else it's because the other people living in that community don't want that. If so, consider going somewhere else and growing your own food and providing your own fire fighting service. And your own hospitals. And manufacture your own medicine. And provide your own communication services. Et cetera.

It's actually probably less burdensome to develop some civic responsibility and organize with your fellow citizens. No, it's not someone else's problem.

 

[neptronix]

I'd welcome your numbers.
Just bare-in-mind; While you can limit the rear wheel from aerial exercises by stuffing a 11-13lb mass in the rear wheel, (which obviously allows greater application of the front brake), you also added, at lease, 30-35 lbs additional mass that those same brakes need to overcome. Personally I think it's a wash.
The average (but decent quality) bicycle w/experienced rider would be doing exceptionally well to pull 0.5g's deceleration. That's well below average for nearly any of today's street motorcycles (One recent article I just reviewed, stated a Harley topped the list of a half dozen random examples, pulled cool 0.9g's decel).

See the super hiryuu bike in my signature. 1.5-2kw regen worked so great at high speeds that i eliminated the rear mechanical brake. Frame was a very nice Turner downhill bike. didn't start to get squirrely until 50mph.

Well over 90% of the total braking was via regen. A lot more dependable than dual 203mm discs when descending mountains, because the rear brake never faded.

I'm just saying that braking is not your problem. And the extra weight is arguable.

 

[Risky Rob]

Here's an altogether different take. I don't ride fast, but I like the power of a 1500W throttle operated rear hub motor. I have quick acceleration, good hill climbing, and a power reserve, when needed.

The problem is that, since January, my motor wattage is twice the legal limit.

Another angle is that I don't want to pay for insurance or registration. I'm a libertarian, and prefer that the police would only cite ebike riders for moving violations.

 

[stancecoke]

thats not uncommon for people to average if they are quite well trained

If you are well trained, you don't need a motor to assist you
The motor on an EPAC helps people, that are not able to ride a bike on a hilly area without a motor any more, or who want to commute without sweating. If this use cases are not fitting to you needs, just don't buy one. Ride a moped. That's less expensive.

 

[glennb]

Strange discussion. Seems to be lost on some people thst the regulations are in place to allow "assist", not to allow cheapskates to get around on unlicensed motorbikes. Like Stancecoke says.

 

[raylo32]

This is a difficult topic because there are so many variables and scenarios. And as Ebola has mentioned and I have in other similar threads, the envelope of human performance on pedal bikes includes speeds FAR above the e-bikes that are getting regulated. ProTour riders can pedal along at 40 MPH on flats and climb 10% grades at 15 MPH. I was almost that strong when I started riding seriously in my 40s and have done ~ 60 MPH on downhills on a pedal bike (too old to for that now!). So in that sense arbitrarily low speed and power regs for e-bikes make very little sense. IMO, the behavior and rider should be penalized, not the bike itself. But that would be a lot more complicated and require a lot more work to police. So, you get those crazy low regulated limits.