gromike
Power poster
Here's an article that concerns this Washington bill:
State Lawmakers Want To Close The Loophole That Says This Isn’t A Motorcycle
State Lawmakers Want To Close The Loophole That Says This Isn’t A Motorcycle
-
Hello ES! We could use some help to get us past the finish line on building the new knowledgebase for the forum.
Can you donate? Please see our fundraising page. Thank you!
police e-bike crackdown
- Thread starter raylo32
- Start date
Epithemeus
Established
I know it's been said before but what loophole? Buy it with a limiter it's an e bike. Delete the limiter it no longer meets the definition, it's no longer an e bike. Enforcement is the issue here. I do get it though, it's not a simple thing to enforce. But then again... We can't even stop cars from speeding...
gromike
Power poster
What I found interesting was those emotos with ridiculous vestigial pedals that are sold as ebikes because they have a 20mph speed limiter. One would assume that the speed limiter would immediately be removed. What kind of dork would ride what looks to be a motorcycle at less than 20mph?
Maybe some of my ebikes are motorbikes, but at least they look like bicycles.
Maybe some of my ebikes are motorbikes, but at least they look like bicycles.
Absolutely
The original intent of Public Law 107-319 back in 2002, was to create bicycle sub-category to allow selling and/or modifying existing bicycles for electric ASSIST only, while utilizing the existing bicycle components (i.e. wheels, brakes, tires, etc), This kept the cost down by eliminating legal licensing and registration requirements. It also made it easier to give the CPSC the task of regulation because that's who governs bicycles.
Note; The 20 mph speed limit was not randomly chosen - that speed happens to be within the average speed of a non-assisted bicyclist. After all, this category was intended for ASSIST only - meaning exactly what it says - To give a limited, but meaningful 'boost' to physically limited individuals, seniors, cargo haulers, hilly terrain, etc. while easily remaining at or below the 20 mph limit.
We DO NOT need additional LAWS!!!!! We need enforcement of existing laws.
offGridDownUnder
Power poster
I agree with this, although I also hold to another idea.
I see the issue as being about responsibility - that 'with power comes responsibility' bit. Children are excused from responsibility as it's recognized they haven't developed it yet - that's what maturity is about. You mention enforcement of existing laws, and I agree, and I add recognition that we can't expect children to fulfill the contract of taking responsibility. For this reason, I say that only licensed drivers should be permitted to use a powered vehicle in public spaces (roads, bike paths, etc.).
And that provides a simple, and appropriate, basis for what to enforce. Driver's licenses are about responsibility when driving. That's already in place and it's clear-cut.
By definition, maturity means shouldering responsibility, and that is the basis for being allowed to carry out my own life without supervision - I agree to provide the supervision, that's the agreement.
I don't know what the outcome will settle to, but I am seeing mention now of this standard here in Australia. I agree with it. I expect it will lead to recognition that we can and should measure people's actions in terms of them fulfilling their responsibility to others they live with rather than prescribing their behaviours as if they were animals to be managed.
Ban under-16s from riding ebikes and e-scooters then require a driver’s licence, Queensland inquiry to recommend
If you want freedom, take responsibility. If you refuse to accept responsibility, then we know you are not to be trusted. And children are not to be burdened with adult responsibilities before they can manage them.
On private property, your kids can still use the quad bike to bring feed to the stock and do their other chores. It's their guardian's responsibility to see that they can use it safely.
Epithemeus
Established
I'd be okay with this with one caveat. Kids/teens are okay to ride one if accompanied by a fully licensed adult (who assumes all liability). Kind of like the restriction we have here for learners drivers permits. Should shut down teens causing mayhem but leave open options for responsible families choosing alternative transportation. (Aka I don't want to haul a 14 year old as a passenger on my own bike but the hills to the nearest high school are a lot to ask of a kid to do unpowered everyday)
To me it's kind of funny to write laws but not enforce them
Then write more laws but not enforce them
Just more systemic bloat
Meanwhile i've only heard of two people busted on this forum, and you know what kind of ebikes people mostly build here
Maybe it's just performative lawmaking to please the karen and karen-adjacent population
RunForTheHills
Regular
That works for you and would also work for me. However, there is a segment of the adult population that uses ebikes for transportation because they can't or don't want to get a driver's license. These people can't just drive their car to the office if their ebike is made illegal. They will have to ride an non-electric bike, ride public transportation, or pay for Ubers.
gromike
Power poster
My take away is to pedal when over 20mph. The problem then is to stay under 28mph.
So what you are apparently suggesting, is that when an aging senior bolts-on a 400-500W motor on his 20 mph bicycle, he needs to posses a driver's license? Read again my post above... it is still a "bicycle" (defined by Law).. before AND after the installation - nothing changes... including speeds. In fact.. motor-less, a healthy pair of legs can, and often does, far exceeds 20 mph (and he/she doesn't need a license?
The Toecutter
Power poster
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2015
- Messages
- 1,649
I could hit 49 mph on flat ground after a mile and a half of full-effort sprinting in a Milan SL velomobile, unmotorized. Got it up to 89 mph down a steep hill, also unmotorized.
I pedal all the way up to 40mph and my ebike tends to look like a bike
Might be a key to why i never had trouble
Well... I would assume that being called a 'Karen' is better than being called a criminal. Of course, it all depends on one's POV.
offGridDownUnder
Power poster
There is a similar clause in some jurisdictions here - that riding on the footpath (sidewalk) is not permitted, except that an adult can ride with a child to watch out for the child.
offGridDownUnder
Power poster
I'm proposing to solve the problems that are actually happening, not the ones you make up in your posts.
offGridDownUnder
Power poster
If they can't or won't get a driver's license, why should we trust them on our roads, where our children walk or ride, and our elderly walk or ride, and our partners walk or ride?
Getting a driver's license means:
- They've admitted they are responsible to others for their behaviour in shared spaces.
- They know the laws, and have pledged to obey them. This makes them predictable for other road users.
- They've demonstrated enough comprehension that we can expect they can understand the laws of the roads.
People who are too anti-social to acquire a driver's license should not have one. Call a spade a spade. It's a society, not a free-for-all.
I can still walk. I can still ride public transit. I can still hire a cab. I can still carpool. We don't owe it to anti-social or incapable persons to let them have a vehicle that can hurt others if they can't demonstrate the competence to handle it.
I do mean to exclude the mobility scooters that the elderly and others with disability use. These are under a different legislative scheme, including limits on their speed. People that use these don't also use ebikes, typically, and in any case where someone does, they can show they are enough together to get their driver's license if they want to also use an ebike.
RunForTheHills
Regular
Fortunately, it's not your call. Although the land of speed cameras, Australia, is a place much like New Jersey and likely to implement such draconian laws.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for drunk drivers, but people still need to go to work and feed their families that depend on them even if they have lost their license for doing something stupid. The most likely scenario if you take away their legal options for getting to work is that they will simply drive their car or ride their ebike (that they spent a few thousand dollars to buy) without a license even if one is required.
That's more of an aspirational wish. IME, most recreational riders average between 14-17 MPH when they are dedicated, and as road conditions allow.
I can still break well past 20 on my unassisted bike when motivated.
Still, I have a hard time accepting a (to me) arbitrary speed ceiling for ebikes when there are none (even pending) for motorcycles or cars. Which are responsible for exponentially far more accidents (in terms of sheer numbers and damage) than ebikes.
Nomadstealth
New-ish here
They’re pushing for licences in Queensland , Australia . Hopefully Andrew Demack is listened to .
Queensland road deaths 2025
Bicycle Queensland’s director of advocacy, Andrew Demack, said the idea of a licensing requirement was “really poorly thought through”.
“We haven’t thought this through at all, and there are so many gaping holes in it.”
Demack disputed that teenagers using legal e-bikes posed a threat, saying “the opposite was true … [people having] access to legal e-bikes find them to be really helpful in their daily lives”.
“There’s no doubt that the most dangerous device on our roads are people in motor vehicles,” he said.
According to the Department of Transport and Main Roads’ annual crash report, 307 lives were lost in 284 crashes in Queensland in 2025, the highest road toll in the state in 16 years.
This included :-
129 car driver fatalities and 44 passenger deaths
75 motorcycle/moped rider and pillion
50 truck drivers
38 pedestrians
13 bicycle or e-bike rider and pillion
8 personal mobility devices – which covers e-scooters – saw the fewest fatalities
In the six months to 30 June last year, 1,455 drivers were hospitalised after a crash while 105 personal mobility device users were hospitalised with injuries.
Queensland road deaths 2025
Bicycle Queensland’s director of advocacy, Andrew Demack, said the idea of a licensing requirement was “really poorly thought through”.
“We haven’t thought this through at all, and there are so many gaping holes in it.”
Demack disputed that teenagers using legal e-bikes posed a threat, saying “the opposite was true … [people having] access to legal e-bikes find them to be really helpful in their daily lives”.
“There’s no doubt that the most dangerous device on our roads are people in motor vehicles,” he said.
According to the Department of Transport and Main Roads’ annual crash report, 307 lives were lost in 284 crashes in Queensland in 2025, the highest road toll in the state in 16 years.
This included :-
129 car driver fatalities and 44 passenger deaths
75 motorcycle/moped rider and pillion
50 truck drivers
38 pedestrians
13 bicycle or e-bike rider and pillion
8 personal mobility devices – which covers e-scooters – saw the fewest fatalities
In the six months to 30 June last year, 1,455 drivers were hospitalised after a crash while 105 personal mobility device users were hospitalised with injuries.
TPEHAK
Regular
Because of we trust you while you got no electrician's licence but use your electrical powered equipment in your home can cause fire and burn the whole block to the ground where our children walk or ride, and our elderly walk or ride, and our parents walk or ride.
The Toecutter
Power poster
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2015
- Messages
- 1,649
My trike/quad builds are all fully functional as pedal-powered with the motors disabled, will be slippery enough to easily exceed 28 mph on flat ground or downhill without using a motor, the motors/electronics will be hidden, and "Human Powered Vehicle" stickers as well as a mini license plate that says "BICYCLE" on the back will be prominently displayed. At their core, a "bicycle" is what those vehicles are, and that is how I use them. I rarely use the throttle on my builds, mainly on the mountainbike to get it going after a stop or when going too slow to pedal. Because I have to share infrastructure with vehicles that move much faster than the 28 mph limit, including going up steep hills, the motors on my velos are mainly there to make sure I don't get run over from behind by fast automobile traffic(and to a lesser extent to occasionally race cars at stoplights).I pedal all the way up to 40mph and my ebike tends to look like a bike
Might be a key to why i never had trouble
The arbitrary speed restriction exists to make sure cheaper light vehicles can't displace the use of expensive/overtaxed cars that force you to pay expensive bills. It's not about safety, it's about assuring that your money gets extracted by a chain of industries and government agencies that feel entitled to your money that they didn't earn. Those are the types of laws that start revolts, and rightfully so, and should be ignored and the enforcers of said rules defied.
These vehicles help starve the beast. I'm doing my part.
Last edited:
Risky Rob
Established
Do you ride quad bikes on the street? In my jurisdiction, an ebike can't have more than 3 wheels.
The Toecutter
Power poster
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2015
- Messages
- 1,649
I have ridden it in the street for testing thus far. It's not yet ready for daily use. There's no body on it yet and I need to do some more work on the rear end. In the neighboring state, it could get me in legal trouble, but where I am at, if I put it in Class 3 mode, it's technically legal.
There are people that ride gasoline quad ATVs around unregistered/unlicensed/uninsured without issue, mainly because they don't care about the law and will just run from the cops. That's normal here.
Mine is going to be less ATV, more 1930s-1950s streamlined race car. And set up to be passable as a "human powered vehicle". And if that's not enough, I'll have enough power to disappear like a UFO.
Risky Rob
Established
I fly under the radar, riding a mountain bike conversion. It was legal until recently, when the motor watt guidelines were tightened. I blacked out the wattage printed on the hubmotor, replaced by a "Class 2 750W 20 MPH" sticker.
offGridDownUnder
Power poster
I can see it your way, but I am also considering another path. it might be best to follow the approach you are advocating, and I'll accept that - I can see to my own behaviour.
The other path I can see is that we require a license for any powered vehicle, and then start holding the petrol drivers to the same standard - that is, keeping the terms of their license. Call a spade a spade. You got the license, you keep the terms, and we're not going to ignore that you are a petrol driver.
Overall, the best approach will be to have smaller vehicles to meet real needs, rather than an industry that makes it's money catering to delusions of "feeling powerful" because you paid money for a machine that "looks like" something or "carries on the legacy" or some other such stupid bullshit.
No one needs a vehicle that does more than carry people and goods for them at speeds they can manage reliably. If we keep the current society, no vehicle (apart perhaps from the ones the Police use) needs to be able to exceed ~110km/hr. But encouraging that approach definitely leads to high costs to the other people in the society - sometimes fatal.
I don't agree to pay for someone else's unwillingness to face down their ego.
