Hola, ¿ya está a la venta el kit con doble placa? ¿Puede el kit soportar 35 o 40 amperios de descarga? Gracias
'lightest.bike' 1.7kg 1000w mid drive
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nervagon
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So in order to get my firmware fixed, I'll need to send dump file to Bikee and have a bunch of back and forth with 24hrs or more between each email. And if we get that fixed, and they fix the bugs with USA 750 requiring kmh units, and the battery icon being completely wrong... I am still geared poorly, and correcting that will require a bunch of additional work rearranging the motor/installation. Either I put the motor half-way up my downtube, or I go dual-chainring with like a 36T motor cog and a 42T to 46T chainring to the cassette. As mentioned by Bikee, that works like overdrive on your car's transmission, and should also bring the motor comfortably into ebike class 3 and beyond. But that is a lot of additional work and downtime sending the motor back, etc. I could take delivery of, and be fully set up with a photon way before I got this stuff sorted with the bikee kit.
Hmmm.
Hmmm.
Sounds like poor smoothing of the signal. I'd ask if it has adjustments for this (like the Cycle Analyst does) but I find it difficult to care, given everything else reported as problems with this system.
nervagon
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Sounds like poor smoothing of the signal. I'd ask if it has adjustments for this (like the Cycle Analyst does) but I find it difficult to care, given everything else reported as problems with this system.
My Bikee journey is over. I'm just posting this for others like @Golo .
Thank you @nervagon it seems to be less noisy than my x1 stealth gen 1, but maybe not as silent as I hoped for.
I am running that one in LDS mode which combines torque sensing and pas. It runs smoother than this one does.
I have had very much tweaking with the settings on that one before i was happy with the torque sensing. It is mainly the noise I am unhappy with in it now. And the noise is much more annoying in torque mode only like you describes.
I hope I will get my kit before this season,so I can test it out for myself.
I am running that one in LDS mode which combines torque sensing and pas. It runs smoother than this one does.
I have had very much tweaking with the settings on that one before i was happy with the torque sensing. It is mainly the noise I am unhappy with in it now. And the noise is much more annoying in torque mode only like you describes.
I hope I will get my kit before this season,so I can test it out for myself.
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nervagon
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Yeah, I think all of these cyclone style outboard motors with their eggbeaters exposed sound similar. Your stealth might be touch more noisy, but it is probably pushing more power too. They are in the same ballpark.
nervagon
1 kW
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Thank you @nervagon it seems to be a little bit less noisy than my x1 stealth gen 1.
I am running that one in LDS mode which combines torque sensing and pas. It runs smoother than this one does.
I have had very much tweaking with the settings on that one before i was happy with the torque sensing. It is mainly the noise I am unhappy with in it. And the noise is much more annoying in torque mode only like you describes.
I still think my stealth is louder but not very much
I am also considering to order a cyc photon, I want my bike up and running before this season. And it's not guaranteed that the lighest will show up in timeI was hoping to give the Lighest kit a season to find out if I am happy with it. Before eventually buying a Photon. The Photon seems to be very quiet. But a kg. Heavier and it gets hot. But the Lightest might also do.
A combined torque and PAS blended mode sounds wonderful. Does the Photon have that? If so, I am sold instantly... I will place my order right now.
Isn't the Photon only like 7 pounds? That's not bad.
You really think you'll get your Lightest kit and have it running trouble free in time for this biking season? I wish you luck! Hopefully your order number comes up soon.
Thanks for that video, i think that's medium loud.. but we wanted a lot quieter didn't we.
It does sound like motor whine more than mechanical whine..
Maybe it's improvable with a different controller, which is the route i want to experiment with..
Per my previous calculations:
For keeping the stock RPMs here is an option if you want to do 52v..
42T chainring @ 48v: 93.75 RPM <-- seems a little high
46T chainring: @ 52v: 92 RPM <-- about the same as stock, need hybrid or mid mount depending on your frame geometry
I need a 48T chainring minimum to hit 30mph, so..
48T chainring @ 48v: 82.0 RPM <-- probably my average pedal speed
48T chainring @ 52v: 88 RPM <-- within acceptable range & less than stock - great
I decided to try to install it on my MTB with the mid mount and also the hybrid mount and mid mount..
Pedals tighten down on the ~123mm bottom bracket without using any of the included spacers.
I'm thrilled that i could switch out the 127mm bottom bracket and have more of a roadbike-like Q factor, dream come true! that's why i bought this drive!
Mid mount: Maxes out at 46T, might take 47T
Hybrid mount: 48T on a 13T rear gear just barely works.
In this picture i am hand-tensioning a chain draped over a rear 13T sprocket at about 80% intensity. You still see a little droop. When engaged with two hands, there's even more clearance indicating i can run a 12T sprocket but this would make my estimated top speed 28.1mph which is disappointing.
If i had a 29er with the same 2.35" tire then i would be doing 30.5mph on this gearing, so this is def a 26er problem.
This orientation with the hybrid mount looks quite good, the motor gets blasted with more air with it sitting more upright than usual.
I'm quite sure a long mount would be adequate to get gearing good enough for my 26er, but it is way too long. A mid mount that's 1 inch longer would give me another 1/2 inch clearance and give me enough room to get 30mph capable gearing without needing to resort to a weaker 11T in the rear.
Chain wrap should be good when i replace the torque sensor arm with the one included in the bag for the hybrid mount, should have 33-40% of the gear wrapped which i imagine is adequate for such a large chainring. The torque sensor arm should have more travel, so i think the torque sensing might work better than nervagon's and be less pulse-y, we'll see.
A top speed around 28mph should be enough to torture this motor and find it's true power rating. I have plenty of roads here with a slight long grade and i'd like to see if i can load this motor right @ 1000w.
If the motor can take this for an extended period of time without melting, i call this a promising motor & i will work on some mods that increase the power and speed.
If not, it goes on the recumbent where i can get away with a less powerful motor & i'll do the dual chainring mod or some goofy looking business with the 'inframe mount'
Off to buy a 52v 20ah battery!
It does sound like motor whine more than mechanical whine..
Maybe it's improvable with a different controller, which is the route i want to experiment with..
Per my previous calculations:
For keeping the stock RPMs here is an option if you want to do 52v..
42T chainring @ 48v: 93.75 RPM <-- seems a little high
46T chainring: @ 52v: 92 RPM <-- about the same as stock, need hybrid or mid mount depending on your frame geometry
I need a 48T chainring minimum to hit 30mph, so..
48T chainring @ 48v: 82.0 RPM <-- probably my average pedal speed
48T chainring @ 52v: 88 RPM <-- within acceptable range & less than stock - great
I decided to try to install it on my MTB with the mid mount and also the hybrid mount and mid mount..
Pedals tighten down on the ~123mm bottom bracket without using any of the included spacers.
I'm thrilled that i could switch out the 127mm bottom bracket and have more of a roadbike-like Q factor, dream come true! that's why i bought this drive!
Mid mount: Maxes out at 46T, might take 47T
Hybrid mount: 48T on a 13T rear gear just barely works.
In this picture i am hand-tensioning a chain draped over a rear 13T sprocket at about 80% intensity. You still see a little droop. When engaged with two hands, there's even more clearance indicating i can run a 12T sprocket but this would make my estimated top speed 28.1mph which is disappointing.
If i had a 29er with the same 2.35" tire then i would be doing 30.5mph on this gearing, so this is def a 26er problem.
This orientation with the hybrid mount looks quite good, the motor gets blasted with more air with it sitting more upright than usual.
I'm quite sure a long mount would be adequate to get gearing good enough for my 26er, but it is way too long. A mid mount that's 1 inch longer would give me another 1/2 inch clearance and give me enough room to get 30mph capable gearing without needing to resort to a weaker 11T in the rear.
Chain wrap should be good when i replace the torque sensor arm with the one included in the bag for the hybrid mount, should have 33-40% of the gear wrapped which i imagine is adequate for such a large chainring. The torque sensor arm should have more travel, so i think the torque sensing might work better than nervagon's and be less pulse-y, we'll see.
A top speed around 28mph should be enough to torture this motor and find it's true power rating. I have plenty of roads here with a slight long grade and i'd like to see if i can load this motor right @ 1000w.
If the motor can take this for an extended period of time without melting, i call this a promising motor & i will work on some mods that increase the power and speed.
If not, it goes on the recumbent where i can get away with a less powerful motor & i'll do the dual chainring mod or some goofy looking business with the 'inframe mount'
Off to buy a 52v 20ah battery!
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Epithemeus
10 W
While I don't think it has that now, the photon has a VESC based controller meaning it's open source and not difficult to get custom firmware onto. So in theory virtually any control scheme is possible. The hardest part is waiting for someone to write the firmware though.
If the pedaling width wasn't totally crazy on the Photon ( even on a 68mm bottom bracket ), it had exceptional efficiency, and it lived up to it's power rating, i would already own one.
You're rightfully nervous about ordering a lightest!
If you want a new light weight mid drive, another contender is PaulD's mid drive, but it maxes out at 650w.
On my side.. 52v 20ah battery ordered and on it's way via DHL,
You're rightfully nervous about ordering a lightest!
If you want a new light weight mid drive, another contender is PaulD's mid drive, but it maxes out at 650w.
On my side.. 52v 20ah battery ordered and on it's way via DHL,
raylo32
100 kW
TSDZ2 has PAS, Torque, and blended PAS and torque sense option in the third party OSF, called Hybrid mode. In the Photon firmware there are no options per se. Just Pedal Assist on or off. There are torque sensor sensitivity adjustments and a "Cadence Start" on and off button. I am not sure if that pedal assist considers both the cadence and torque sensor. You could ask the question over in the CYC Photon thread.
Pilot Engineer
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Apologies, I haven't received any notification for the new messages.
@nervagon :
Glad you like the power.
I sent you the unlock code for Offroad. I've seen your video: you have the Superhero feature, so you can extend the deceleration ramp to have a smooth even feeling when pedaling.
Also if you can set the correct battery voltage with the app: that will fix the indication on the display.
About the sensitivity of the torque sensor: you can adjust it in two ways:
1) with the app
In the settings, section D, you will find the graph which shows you in the x axis the pressure on the pedal, and in the y axis you can set the motor assist. By dragging the two points you set the motor response to the pressure.
If all the points are as high as possible and to the very left, the motor will deliver a lot of power from the initial push, making it working similarly to a PAS. If the line is straight and diagonal, you'll get a very linear progression of the motor power with the pressure on the pedals. If you set it like a exponential curve, the motor will give you a good assistance only when you push hard, letting you doing the work when no big effort is required.
2) If the above is not enough, it could be that you pushed too little when doing the calibration. You can then re-do the calibration of the torque sensor, as per the below instructions ( manual page 58):
About the noise: it will get more and more quiter as you ride it.
Please make sure you download the latest manual ( here: Download user manual and APP for the Lightest ebike mid drive motor ) to benefit from all the Superhero features. That gives you a lot of freedom to customize the ride accordingly to your taste.
Any other question, I'm here.
Matteo
@nervagon :
Glad you like the power.
I sent you the unlock code for Offroad. I've seen your video: you have the Superhero feature, so you can extend the deceleration ramp to have a smooth even feeling when pedaling.
Also if you can set the correct battery voltage with the app: that will fix the indication on the display.
About the sensitivity of the torque sensor: you can adjust it in two ways:
1) with the app
In the settings, section D, you will find the graph which shows you in the x axis the pressure on the pedal, and in the y axis you can set the motor assist. By dragging the two points you set the motor response to the pressure.
If all the points are as high as possible and to the very left, the motor will deliver a lot of power from the initial push, making it working similarly to a PAS. If the line is straight and diagonal, you'll get a very linear progression of the motor power with the pressure on the pedals. If you set it like a exponential curve, the motor will give you a good assistance only when you push hard, letting you doing the work when no big effort is required.
2) If the above is not enough, it could be that you pushed too little when doing the calibration. You can then re-do the calibration of the torque sensor, as per the below instructions ( manual page 58):
About the noise: it will get more and more quiter as you ride it.
Please make sure you download the latest manual ( here: Download user manual and APP for the Lightest ebike mid drive motor ) to benefit from all the Superhero features. That gives you a lot of freedom to customize the ride accordingly to your taste.
Any other question, I'm here.
Matteo
Thanks for chiming in @Pilot Engineer
I'm glad the torque sensor is tuneable and can be improved.. and also the noise improves..
Motor sound wise could i benefit from using a sine wave or FOC controller?
What do you think of my 1 inch longer mid drive plate idea.. i think it would cure the issue of most people not being able to fit a big enough sprocket, which is probably an issue for most people trying to fit the 750w and 1000w models..
I'm glad the torque sensor is tuneable and can be improved.. and also the noise improves..
Motor sound wise could i benefit from using a sine wave or FOC controller?
What do you think of my 1 inch longer mid drive plate idea.. i think it would cure the issue of most people not being able to fit a big enough sprocket, which is probably an issue for most people trying to fit the 750w and 1000w models..
Pilot Engineer
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Hi @neptronix , the controller is already a sinewave FOC.
Most of the noise is coming from the plastic gear: that's made out of a super reinforced plastic by injection mold. That increases the strength of the gear by not cutting all the fibers around the teeth.
The drawback is that it needs a running-in to get smoother. In that phase the microgeometry of the gear flanks (which cannot be as perfect as the gear hobbing process) wear to the perfect profile. Then the motor becomes very quiet.
Since the gear is very resistent, that phase can take up to 300 miles at good power.
About your suggestions, I'll reply in a separate post.
Pilot Engineer
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About the 1 inch longer plates, Yes, that's feasible. We have a minimum batch of 50 pcs on those to get them at a fair price...
Nice! i'll make sure to put lots of power in..
I can see how as a small motor maker that's a problem.Too bad i only have 1pcs mid drive
.Thinking about chain clearing some people's calves, i have almost inhuman strong/big calves ( worst case scenario ) and the chain could move up 1 inch or more without the chain hitting my calves at any degree of rotation. I think an extra inch on the mid mount would be safe considering most bikes have a less steep bottom tube than mine.
rivers
100 mW
I have a 250 watt Bikee kit installed on a carbon road bike. The motor noise is horrible; much worse than the nervagon video. The sound is completely unacceptable especially for group riding. I am my second plastic gear after being told that the plastic gears had "tolerance problems" and I should try another. I recently installed the new plastic gear, but the noise is just as bad if not worse. I don't know if I have the patience to ride 300 miles in the hope that the noise goes away.
rhauff
100 mW
@Pilot Engineer, Is a larger motor pinion gear available? I know it was early on, then you settled on a 10T, maybe to allow clearance for the torque arm and idler. A larger pinion gear would solve the higher top speed dilemma for Offroad/Unrestricted use, or when a larger chainring is needed. The Midmount torque arm appears longer, maybe that would work with a 12T motor pinion gear?
I would bet you can accelerate that process by riding up the steepest thing you can possibly find or putting it on a bike trainer @ whatever the highest power you can get away with.
250w doesn't give you much gear self-machining power, so you'd really have to kick that motor's ass. Give it the ol' Italian Tuneup!
nervagon
1 kW
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Matteo hit my dead project with the defibrillator and set me the QR to get race mode working.
So I did more riding and testing.
The unloaded speed of the 750W on 52V and 29” wheels is 38mph! But it doesn’t quite have the power to overpower the physics when loaded and traveling. After multiple test runs on the flat with throttle only I can actually hit 28mph, maybe 29mph in a tuck. Again, my chainring is too small, so I can’t pedal at these speeds. But it needs to be said again, this is a very powerful throttle-only motor. A BBSHD rider will not be underwhelmed.
As I originally promised, I thrashed the motor for y’all riding up hills in high gearing, throttle from standstill in the 11T rear cog, etc. This is the surface temp of the motor casing in C right after.
And look at that. That big old chonk of aluminum mounting the motor to my downtube is almost the same temp as the motor casing. It is effectively sinking the heat, extending the thermal mass. Curious because I am Using POM 6mm to 7mm bushings to remove the slop from the oversized motor mounting holes. I thought the POM plastic inserts would inhibit thermal transfer, but nope, guess not.
My battery is set up correctly. 14S 1100 watt hours. The app has bugs. But the best way to showcase that is by recording the struggle on video.
For reference I just weighed myself. 240 pounds. I have obtained a bootleg liposuction machine and will be bottling up 8oz jars of fresh nervagon blubber. Check my onlyfans or DM for details on price and availability.
So I did more riding and testing.
The unloaded speed of the 750W on 52V and 29” wheels is 38mph! But it doesn’t quite have the power to overpower the physics when loaded and traveling. After multiple test runs on the flat with throttle only I can actually hit 28mph, maybe 29mph in a tuck. Again, my chainring is too small, so I can’t pedal at these speeds. But it needs to be said again, this is a very powerful throttle-only motor. A BBSHD rider will not be underwhelmed.
As I originally promised, I thrashed the motor for y’all riding up hills in high gearing, throttle from standstill in the 11T rear cog, etc. This is the surface temp of the motor casing in C right after.
And look at that. That big old chonk of aluminum mounting the motor to my downtube is almost the same temp as the motor casing. It is effectively sinking the heat, extending the thermal mass. Curious because I am Using POM 6mm to 7mm bushings to remove the slop from the oversized motor mounting holes. I thought the POM plastic inserts would inhibit thermal transfer, but nope, guess not.
My battery is set up correctly. 14S 1100 watt hours. The app has bugs. But the best way to showcase that is by recording the struggle on video.
For reference I just weighed myself. 240 pounds. I have obtained a bootleg liposuction machine and will be bottling up 8oz jars of fresh nervagon blubber. Check my onlyfans or DM for details on price and availability.
Pilot Engineer
10 W
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The larger pinion would make the motor spin slower, but the cadence will always be set by the chainring dimension
Pilot Engineer
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Tom
Tomorrow we'll check the bug of the battery level with the 14s.
This is fantastic news about the thermals, many of your reports are indicating this is a very high efficiency motor too.
Great conductivity of heat to case means adding some heatsinks as you did should be really effective.
I think my torture tests will go well..
Is there a display of the motor temperature in the app or on the screen?
Sounds like you are a couple extra gear teeth and some pedaling away from 30mph?
The current highest efficiency geared motor ( closest comparison we can make ) consumes 796w at 30mph, so i think a tiny bit more than 30mph is possible within your 750w limit if the motor is really ~90% efficient
Any possibility of moving the motor inward? because if you can, i think you can go up 2T, and this will have a beneficial effect of lowering the cadence a few RPM.
Great conductivity of heat to case means adding some heatsinks as you did should be really effective.
I think my torture tests will go well..
Is there a display of the motor temperature in the app or on the screen?
Sounds like you are a couple extra gear teeth and some pedaling away from 30mph?
The current highest efficiency geared motor ( closest comparison we can make ) consumes 796w at 30mph, so i think a tiny bit more than 30mph is possible within your 750w limit if the motor is really ~90% efficient
Any possibility of moving the motor inward? because if you can, i think you can go up 2T, and this will have a beneficial effect of lowering the cadence a few RPM.
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