Is a lightweight velomobile legally capable of 50mph feasible

M

Mike Bounds

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Most velomobiles are under 60kg, and a few are classed as mopeds, such as the Northern Light 630, which although capable of 50mph, can only legally do 28mpg. To get any vehicle legally capable of 50mph, the next weight bracket seems to be over 250kg where I can only find one which is still a velomobile which is the Twike3 which is only loosely a velomobile as by its own definition the pedal assists the motor, rather than motor assisting the pedal power, so compared to the Northern Light 630 where 200W is enough to sustain 30mph without any electric assistance, for the Twike3 power, 200W only provides 20% of what is required.

There are lot of regulations to make a 15mph velomobile Ebike legally capable of 28mph, but there seems to be very little additional regulation to make it legally capable of speeds up to 70mph - the main thing being the design and construction which covers the chassis, sub-frame, body parts, wheels, axles and suspension to assess the ability to withstand the forces and vibrations imposed during acceleration, braking and cornering when fully laden. Do the extra stresses on a velomobile of increasing the speed from 28mph to 50+mph mean lightweight cycle components cannot be used and must be replaced by much heavier motorbike/car components? So for example would it be possible to alter the Northern Light 630 or the Begorett Angelina (which also has a moped/Super Pedelec version) to be more sturdy, to make it legally a motor trike/quad bike somewhere around 100kg, or does it require a major redesign to be safe at higher speeds?
 
Short answer? No.

The real world power requirements to achieve and maintain 50 mph or 80 kph make pedal power almost irrelevant, and increase structural integrity requirements beyond anything designed to run on human power alone. Velomobiles are already built like eggshells to make their weight tolerable; there's no real structural margin to work with when you want to change their design spec.

At a minimum, you would need unusually strong wheels, frame, and suspension, plus an aero shell robust enough to resist forces that rise with the square of airspeed. Add all these things up and you'll have a heavy enough contraption that it wouldn't be suitable for pedal power, but also fragile enough that it isn't roadworthy by conventional understanding of what that is. A powered sailplane wouldn't last long on the road, and that's analogous to what you're looking at.
 
Mike Bounds said:
So for example would it be possible to alter the Northern Light 630 or the Begorett Angelina (which also has a moped/Super Pedelec version) to be more sturdy, to make it legally a motor trike/quad bike somewhere around 100kg, or does it require a major redesign to be safe at higher speeds?
Click to expand...
Major redesign. At 50mph it needs to be crashworthy, and most velomobiles have zero consideration for that (since at their speeds the energy to be dissipated is pretty minimal.) So that's a big change to the cabin and the front (AND rear) of the vehicle. All that comes at a cost - weight - so now you need beefier brakes, suspension and drivetrain. Which drives higher power requirements etc.

It's certainly possible to make a much lightER 50mph capable vehicle than what's out there now, but the design/testing cycle is likely far out of your price range. Consider the Arcimoto and how much effort went into that. At 50mph instead of 75mph top speed you can lighten it even further, but it would be a LOT of work.
 
Lol hell yeah.

I do 60mph every day on bicycle parts have been for 6-yrs + battery isnt to heavy bike parts work good

I get 90 miles on 20mph and at 60mph its 15 miles in 15 min. Charges in two hrs at 12A

do it in under 100 lbs with DOT rated rims and tires, 2000wh battery, 30 lb hub motor. Cost bout 1500$ with used parts... not considering the easy modded donor frame.
 
While it's possible to build something light and fast it's not easy to do it well enough that you want to use it, for instance go watch Aging Wheels videos on the Twike, the thing is scary to drive even a much slower speeds than 50. It's not even really that bike components will be too fragile and break, it's that they will lack things like stiffness and the aero and geometry must be very good for it to be very stable while weighting so little. With a bike though going that fast is much easier because there is a lot less to it so it takes much less to make it stiff enough and the geometry is well established to be stable.

I think the crash worthiness argument is pretty much irrelevant, you should treat it like a motorcycle, it will generally be as dangerous as one in a crash. The issue is if it's not as stable as one a crash may be more likely. Also I think there is a perfectly good middle ground of making a lightweight aero motorcycle and using lightweight motorcycle and scooter parts. Yes it will be heavier and yes some good design work will be needed but it will be much more likely to be stable due to some added weight and the much improved stiffness.
 
When I was making my first build, having had no experience with 2 wheeled transport prior, I had thought that I would want to get the smallest, lightest thing I could get and take that at 50 mph. After having settled on a 450cc motorcycle and riding it, I realized how nice it was to have something "heavy" and stable underneath me when going at those speeds. Which isn't to say that a velo couldn't be made strong and light and comfortable to ride at 50mph. Just my two cents
 
JackFlorey said:
Major redesign. At 50mph it needs to be crashworthy, and most velomobiles have zero consideration for that (since at their speeds the energy to be dissipated is pretty minimal.) So that's a big change to the cabin and the front (AND rear) of the vehicle. All that comes at a cost - weight - so now you need beefier brakes, suspension and drivetrain. Which drives higher power requirements etc.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's unfortunate that we don't have some 100kg-400kg motorcycle level velomobile that can take a hit at, or around it's top speed, and see the rider survive with minor injuries.

Such a vehicle is possible to build. With very strong regenerative braking, you could counteract that added weight ( Tesla approach ).

Imagine a narrower, more aerodynamic version of a sandrail. This one even has a front bumper.

1717955276514.png

But yeah this class of vehicles is oriented most around all out efficiency and safety tends to be an afterthought. Same goes for Motorcycles, ATVs, and other small vehicles. it's kind of sad. We need a better car replacement.
 
scianiac said:
for instance go watch Aging Wheels videos on the Twike,
Click to expand...

Thanks for that; it is a great illustration of all the issues I predicted for the OP, and it doesn't even meet the OP's spec after four decades of development.

I would love to see a demo video of Toecutter's custom velomobile. I suspect he's come much closer to what the OP has in mind than Twike did.
 
neptronix said:
But yeah this class of vehicles is oriented most around all out efficiency and safety tends to be an afterthought. Same goes for Motorcycles, ATVs, and other small vehicles. it's kind of sad. We need a better car replacement.
Click to expand...

No, we need to get rid of cars. Small lightweight vehicles are not the core safety problem; cars and trucks are. They're also a huge resource sink, pollution generator, and source of urban and social blight. Coexisting peacefully with them isn't an option. We can throw anything we like at the problem, but it won't go away until they do.
 
I'd like to be a lot less ambitious than that and just build a velo-car that can withstand a hit at non-freeway speeds.

That's a lot easier than 'get rid of cars' :)
 
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Chalo said:
No, we need to get rid of cars.
Click to expand...
Yup, I agree... just not gonna see it happenin' in my lifetime,... nor likely during any of my kid's lifespan either. Those in charge are only fixated on body counts & perpetual regulations.
 
scianiac said:
While it's possible to build something light and fast it's not easy to do it well enough that you want to use it, for instance go watch Aging Wheels videos on the Twike, the thing is scary to drive even a much slower speeds than 50. It's not even really that bike components will be too fragile and break, it's that they will lack things like stiffness and the aero and geometry must be very good for it to be very stable while weighting so little. With a bike though going that fast is much easier because there is a lot less to it so it takes much less to make it stiff enough and the geometry is well established to be stable.
Click to expand...
I just watched the Aging wheels YouTube video on the Twike 3 (a 1998 model). Yes, he says it is terrifying to drive.

Well Twike has a new model now called the Twike 5 which weighs 600 kg rather than the 240kg to 350 kg listed for the Twike 3.

Not sure how much better the Twike 5 will be, but apparently it is new unlike the Twike 3 that was first made 29 years ago (I.e.1995).
 
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It's %50k and they're only making 500 of them. What a bummer!

I also think adding pedals in is cheesy..
 
Like that, but a lot stronger.
 
Thanks for all your replies - my thoughts are:
  1. Sorry, I should have been clearer - I am not expecting pedal power to be significant at 50mph, just that it should be significant at 30mph - I already calculated that a velomobile that needed 200W at 30mph would need 900w at 50mph, but a lot of the time, certainly in the UK, you will be on 30mph roads, especially given than 80% of car journeys in the UK are under 10 miles. But when you are on a 40 - 60mph road I think it is safer to match the traffic speed, than to constantly have vehicles overtaking you if you are only doing 30mph which is why I wanted to see how feasible a velomobile is at speeds greater than 30mph.
  2. Although 1kw maybe enough to maintain 50mph, you need a lot more than a 1kw motor as you need to be able to get up hills and you need a lot of energy to get to 50mph and these 2 are proportional to the weight so a vehicle that is twice as heavy will need about twice the amount of energy to get up a hill and twice the amount of energy to get to a given speed which is why I was looking at getting a vehicle as light as is safely possible.
  3. For stability, I watched the Aging Wheels videos on the Twike which was fun to watch and yes the Twike looks unstable, much like the Reliant Robin. I think with 3 wheeled vehicles it is more stable to have the 2 wheels at the front and more aerodynamic and even better for stability is to have the 2 front wheels on the outside of fuselage like the Arcimoto FUV and Northern Light 630 so that is has a wider wheel base. But for stability, maybe you need a certain amount of weight to be stable at 50mph - this is where I am really not certain. You have motorbikes like the SUNRA Robo-S which is only 100kg and this can do 50mph, but 2 wheels handle differently than 3.
  4. For crash worthiness, from a legal point of view, this is not required, and as someone has already said, if you compare this with a motorbike, a motorbike has zero crash protection whereas even with a fragile shell used in traditional velomobiles you have some protection - like this guy crashing at 40mph in a velomobile with only minor injuries. That is not to say crash protection is not important and newer velomobiles have a lot more protection - the NL 630 is designed such that:
    “the narrow ends deflect the majority of impacts and the crumple zones are massive. The safety cell around the pilot is double skinned for side impact and incorporates a roll hoop. Even the claw at the rear is designed specifically to ensure that the vehicle is deflected in impacts from the rear”.
    The Begorett, at only 40kg, has an aeroespacial aluminium space frame:
    “designed to support up to 5 tones in any direction. Constructed with aeronautical grade aluminium. Deformation areas design to absorb impacts.”
    So although these are not on a par with modern cars, they are a lot safer in a crash then motorbikes and maybe possibly even on a par with cars 20 - 30 years ago where many didn’t have crumple zones, side impact bars or airbags.
  5. For wheels, for a pedal bike the rims are 1.5 - 2kg and the tyres 200-300g so each wheel can be under 2kg, but for a velomobile, even classed a moped, they are a lot heavier as the tyres must have a rating so the weight is at least 3 to 4kg. Potentially you can put motorbike tyres on a bike rim as done at 30mph UK road legal electric bicycle , but certainly at speeds of more than 30mph you would want to use a motorbike rim which I think is at least 4kg. I don’t think tyres rated for 50mph are much heavier than those rated for 30mph so potentially there is not much increase in weight required for a 3 wheeled vehicle when up-rating from a moped at 28mph to a motorbike at 50mph. However, one big caveat here is that the forces on a wheel for a bike are different than the forces when used on a velomobile as when a bike corners, the wheel tilts, but it does not on a velomobile and therefore a velomobile will have more lateral forces on the wheels when cornering and this is where I don’t know how strong the wheel would have to be and whether motorbike rims are not even appropriate and if car rims would have to be used which would add a lot of weight.

I would love to see a light aerodynamic vehicle with up to 1 passenger in tandem, where pedalling could be used, not just to give some meaningful input at 30mph, but also to improve health. But, I am under no illusion that it could replace the car(s) in a household, but it could replace the 2nd car as in the UK, nearly half of the households that own a car, own 2 or more and the majority of journeys will be short distances with no passengers
 
Mike Bounds said:
I would love to see a light aerodynamic vehicle with up to 1 passenger in tandem, where pedalling could be used, not just to give some meaningful input at 30mph, but also to improve health. But, I am under no illusion that it could replace the car(s) in a household, but it could replace the 2nd car as in the UK, nearly half of the households that own a car, own 2 or more and the majority of journeys will be short distances with no passengers
Click to expand...

I think this would fit the bill:


Electrom Light Electric Vehicle – Taking the e-bike further

www.electrom.ca www.electrom.ca

Weight is 57kg with one battery and 70 kg with two batteries.

The inventor posts here under the name "tigcross".
 
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www.amaraautomotive.com

Amara Automotive - The Elecy, a Car eBike Hybrid

Amara Automotive lets you travel with car like comfort and all the convenience of an ebike in the new 4 wheeled ebike, the Elecy.
www.amaraautomotive.com www.amaraautomotive.com

Is this being created for personal use or for resale ?
Outlaw or fully road worthy and legally compliant ?
If it's to sell to others it will have different safety and legal considerations.
First off, will be to fit properly speed and load rated tires . . . which will exclude bicycle tires and rims, spokes, hubs.
Bicycle brakes won't be enough either.
Bicycle brakes on 110 pound Surron's, Segways capable of 50 mph are shamefully weak.

https://www.tiresandco.ca/load-and-speed-indexes-moto-advice.html
 
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neptronix said:
I'd like to be a lot less ambitious than that and just build a velo-car that can withstand a hit at non-freeway speeds.

That's a lot easier than 'get rid of cars' :)
Click to expand...

It also won't help.

D*ckless f**ktards are routinely driving 8000+ lbs vehicles with hood heights above the roofs of '80s cars, let alone velomobiles. Making shopping cart sized vehicles with better crumple zones won't fix that. Adding damage tolerance to sensible rides isn't the solution. It will only result in a slightly better ratio of open casket:closed casket ceremonies.
 
neptronix said:
I'd like to be a lot less ambitious than that and just build a velo-car that can withstand a hit at non-freeway speeds.

That's a lot easier than 'get rid of cars' :)
Click to expand...
In London, they look at things differently.

Instead of making a "ebike vehicle" able to withstand a hit by car or truck. They simply remove the cars and trucks from the equation and let the "ebike vehicle" use the bicycle lane.

See below an example of a 500w "ebike vehicle" that is allowed to use bicycle lanes:

 
According to this parts of Southern California would like to have Neighborhood electric vehicles in bicycle lanes:

storymaps.arcgis.com

A Local Travel Network for the South Bay

Creating Safe Routes for Micromobility
storymaps.arcgis.com storymaps.arcgis.com

A neighborhood electric vehicle is a much faster than that 500w "ebike vehicle" used in London I linked. Whereas the London vehicle has it motor cut off at 15.5 mph, a Neighborhood electric vehicle is capable of 25 mph.
 
Once more I can only second Chalo: 50mph means motorcycle gear and next level structural design. Going faster to keep up with cars puts you at a lot of unnecessary risk. I know in the US they have a hard time, but the solution is less cars and more dedicated bike lanes. My sweet spot is 35km/h - around 21mph. Above 40km/h all bikes I've ridden become unstable, and you need a helmet; also any crash at those speed translate into hospital time...
 
I thinkit iseasily possible.

SOL MOBIL is in one of my ebike dedicated Facebook groups. They post stuff all the time. iseeit alot.

I got about half a million ebikers i getto see hundreds if not thousands of bikes... posts.. questions.. answered.. examples... . post every day between the FBgroups. lol. I would love to offer you to join any one of them.

on my way to thousands of ebikers inmy friends list. Lol. I think it is absolutely possible.

Look at SOL MOBIL.

I could build ANY ONE f these bikes for about half or a quarter of the msrp price certainly. Even the 10,000$ 30mph 36v 30aH one... lol.. I could put 4x that many wtt hours on a bike that cost 2000$...

With double the spec. Easy. If you want more velo examples or actual velo builders to talk to join my groups.

Half a million. Goals. lol.


Vehicles - Sol Mobil

www.sol-mobil.com www.sol-mobil.com
 
ebike4healthandfitness said:
According to this parts of Southern California would like to have Neighborhood electric vehicles in bicycle lanes:

storymaps.arcgis.com

A Local Travel Network for the South Bay

Creating Safe Routes for Micromobility
storymaps.arcgis.com storymaps.arcgis.com

A neighborhood electric vehicle is a much faster than that 500w "ebike vehicle" used in London I linked. Whereas the London vehicle has it motor cut off at 15.5 mph, a Neighborhood electric vehicle is capable of 25 mph.
Click to expand...
Very interesting road use proposal.
However, nowhere in the text is there a mention of NEV's being allowed to use dedicated bicycle lanes.
The maps show appropriate lower speed roads where NEV's can be used.
BTW . . . the fun thing about NEV's is they use common "off the shelf" motors and controllers which are easy to upgrade or reprogram for better performance.
 
PaPaSteve said:
However, nowhere in the text is there a mention of NEV's being allowed to use dedicated bicycle lanes.
Click to expand...
Oh yes there is:

1718031601764.png

And prior to this they labeled NEV as micro mobility:


1718031721296.png

See that NEV in the upper right hand corner of the picture above depicting various types of micromobility.


They also listed NEV under micromobility here as well:

1718031896008.png
 
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