CYC PHOTON

Oh, this is all back of the envelope. It's not to 10% or 20% accuracy.

Regarding the 50% efficiency: think the 50% efficiency idea often (not saying that's the case for you) comes from trying to read the efficiency at a lower speed off the 100% throttle graph. But that is for a motor that is still accelerating.
 
hindesite said:
accelerating == riding up an incline?
Click to expand...
No, and yes. ;)
No, the Grin simulator at ebikes.ca allows you to input the grade of the incline. It's already part of the simulation.
By accelerating I really mean accelerating, as in 'not at constant speed' and 'not yet in a steady state'. One of Grin's videos about using the simulator goes into detail on how to properly extract efficiency at less than top speed (by using the automatic throttle feature of the simulator).

And yes, from Einstein we know that it is impossible to distinguish being accelerated from being in a gravitational field, so you could replace incline + acceleration with a steeper incline (or a heavier planet). ;)

Bottom line though, the inefficiency is not that bad when the motor is throttled back to just support going up the incline at a steady speed.

I'm still eagerly awaiting the new BikeOn parts so that I can conduct my test.
 
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So after 2 months on the photon some kind of sprag clutch is shot. On high torque motor just spins and makes a horrible noise. Posted a video on facebook cyc group and it seemed to be quickly identified

Still waiting for a response from CYC. Anyone have any experience with this problem?
 
New CYC Video - Ride Control App Overview
This is an overview of the app, with a further video promised to explain in more detail how the assist levels and settings work in the real world. That should be worth watching for sure.

Presenter is Cathy, who you may have had email conversations with if you've had to discuss problems with your motor. It is worth remembering when discussing CYC in this forum that those involved at CYC are people too. I've had a couple of very minor problems and they've been great to deal with.

 
hindesite said:
No, you don't. The rotor to output (and hence, wheel) ratio is fixed since the drive train is not involved. In fact the OP calculates it to be about 13:1.

Oops...
Click to expand...
Too bad the quote doesn't pick up Superb_Raccoon's posts that hindesite is replying to. It sounds like one or more people are getting frustrated.... Guys, are you quarreling about the BikeOn torque? The motor drives the red ring, called the rotor by spaceman Aram, via a belt with an 11:144 teeth ratio, and the red rotor is directly 1:1 coupled to the rear wheel.

The human can still use the gears, but the motor torque to wheel torque ratio is fixed, unchangeable, constant. Does somebody owe me a beer now? ;)

I hope we are getting closer to getting the new parts, once they arrive Aram wants to assemble everything at BikeOn HQ, so I have to ship my unit back to Las Vegas (I assume). Let's hope it doesn't melt, they are again shooting for record temps there.

In the meantime I read up about Fazua and also $8k-12k Trek bikes, and while they do sound nice I really hope the BikeOn works out, because I don't want to buy either of those!
 
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Gruesome said:
Guys, are you quarreling about the BikeOn torque?
Click to expand...
Nah, but it really is best to be civil, just in case you are the one who "doesn't understand". :)

Looking forward to seeing some longer ride reports. I've gone from being fairly dismissive of the BikeOn to seeing what Aram is trying to achieve, and I think his solution is better (or will be) than many other (mostly failed) high profile solutions that were promoted as being the bees knees by the buzz in all the usual websites in this this space. It doesn't make sense for my use case - and probably not for many others here - but I can see where it is intended to go.
 
IMG_7164.jpeg
100F ride today on the Photon. This is the reading from the tempi.fi ambient heat sensor I’ve been taking on my rides. Digital thermometer at home read 99.9F when I got home.

IMG_7163.jpeg

The new firmware did well.

There were surges of scorching hot wind that felt like a giant heat gun had just been pointed at me. The winds felt hotter than ambient. Just pure hell. And hopefully not a taste of the new normal for this planet... because we'd be f*cked.

I have just one more issue with this motor/software that can hopefully be addressed in another firmware update:

IMG_7165.jpeg

Motor Assist Factor. This is the torque sensor/motor pwr setting, and it is a global setting. I hate that it is a global setting. It needs to be configurable per assist level. Now let me explain why.

Above, you can see it set to where I need it for class 3 speeds (28mph - 30mph) when riding in traffic on a busy street. I have a 42T chainring, so hitting class 3 speeds is a high-cadence, low torque riding situation. And with Motor Assist Factor at 100, I can easily hit the speeds I need when I start to spin out. But I DO NOT like how this feels in the two lower assist levels, when I am wanting a more natural pedaling feel/fitness riding. In fact, in assist level 1, I like it at the other end (25%).

If CYC can fix this, the Photon gets my full endorsement.
 
nervagon said:
View attachment 356775
100F ride today on the Photon. This is the reading from the tempi.fi ambient heat sensor I’ve been taking on my rides. Digital thermometer at home read 99.9F when I got home.

View attachment 356776

The new firmware did well.

There were surges of scorching hot wind that felt like a giant heat gun had just been pointed at me. The winds felt hotter than ambient. Just pure hell. And hopefully not a taste of the new normal for this planet... because we'd be f*cked.

I have just one more issue with this motor/software that can hopefully be addressed in another firmware update:

View attachment 356777

Motor Assist Factor. This is the torque sensor/motor pwr setting, and it is a global setting. I hate that it is a global setting. It needs to be configurable per assist level. Now let me explain why.

Above, you can see it set to where I need it for class 3 speeds (28mph - 30mph) when riding in traffic on a busy street. I have a 42T chainring, so hitting class 3 speeds is a high-cadence, low torque riding situation. And with Motor Assist Factor at 100, I can easily hit the speeds I need when I start to spin out. But I DO NOT like how this feels in the two lower assist levels, when I am wanting a more natural pedaling feel/fitness riding. In fact, in assist level 1, I like it at the other end (25%).

If CYC can fix this, the Photon gets my full endorsement.
Click to expand...
You've come a long way with this motor!
 
nervagon said:
But I DO NOT like how this feels in the two lower assist levels, when I am wanting a more natural pedaling feel/fitness riding. In fact, in assist level 1, I like it at the other end (25%).

If CYC can fix this, the Photon gets my full endorsement.
Click to expand...
I think that some of us work around that by using a throttle for those high power situations. The advantage is that can be set to boost in all power levels, and for just a short time when you need it - like acceleration, or in my case, steep hills.
 
nervagon said:
There were surges of scorching hot wind that felt like a giant heat gun had just been pointed at me. The winds felt hotter than ambient. Just pure hell. And hopefully not a taste of the new normal for this planet... because we'd be f*cked.
Click to expand...
Don't worry, we totally are.

Had the same experience in northern Kenya, in an open truck. It was like sitting with your face in a hair dryer.
 
maiz said:
You've come a long way with this motor!
Click to expand...

I don't know what was in the new firmware, because I can't find any release notes but here is a summary of my experience right now:

Very accurate voltage reading with latest firmware. At 65% battery SOC the voltage reading on the display is deviating by only .07V vs my multimeter. It used to be .9V! (52.9-display, 52.83-multimeter)

Thermal management/power throttling used to be very spastic, bouncing all over the place. It seems to have been tamed and refined.

Throttling is also less extreme, able to hold higher power levels for longer. It did just fine today in the 100F hill climb.

Battery life/mileage seems surprising good, but needs more observation.
 
hindesite said:
I think that some of us work around that by using a throttle for those high power situations. The advantage is that can be set to boost in all power levels, and for just a short time when you need it - like acceleration, or in my case, steep hills.
Click to expand...
I don't ever use the throttle, and would really like to see the Motor Assist Factor tunable per assist level. That would give the Photon the nervagon seal of approval.
 
Re: CYC Photon assist level adjustment
Nervagon, I do not understand how the 'motor assist factor' can be the same at all three assist levels. There must be a separate multiplier for each level. Can you control those levels, or are they fixed from the factory?

With the BikeOn, each of the three assist levels maps to an adjustable assist factor. The low assist can be varied between 0 and 60, the middle assist between 45 and something, and the high assist between something else and 100. I assume there is one common torque multiplier factor applied to these percentage values, but that factor might be 1.
Are you saying that with the photon there is no way to adjust the individual levels, you are stuck with factory presets? That seems bad.
 
Gruesome said:
Are you saying that with the photon there is no way to adjust the individual levels, you are stuck with factory presets?
Click to expand...
All the individual levels are configurable, and each across the full range.

Hopefully Cathy produces the next video explaining this soon.
 
Gruesome said:
Nervagon, I do not understand how the 'motor assist factor' can be the same at all three assist levels. There must be a separate multiplier for each level. Can you control those levels, or are they fixed from the factory?
Click to expand...

The CYC Ride Control Manual describes it thusly:
Motor Assist Factor
This value pertains to how hard you need to pedal to get full
power.
Click to expand...

The Motor Assist factor is separate from the individual PAS settings, and universal. Tuning it for class 3 speeds on a 42T chainring in PAS 3 makes the other 2 PAS levels OP and unnatural. This setting greatly affects the performance of the Photon, and I can't get it balanced out to perform right across all 3 PAS levels.

As for the individual PAS tweaks, we get 2 settings:

Max Power level in Watts
Max Motor Torque output in percentage:
Cathy: How the torque level distribution works is that it's in percentage. So if you have the Photon system and the max torque is 110Nm, then setting your mid level to 50% would then be 55Nm. (9:24 mark in the video linked above)
Click to expand...

This is not how it works on my Specialized Turbo Vado. On my Vado, each PAS setting has Power and Ease, or power and torque sensor sensitivity for each PAS level. I have no idea why CYC went this route of trying to set the max output torque of the motor per PAS level. It doesn't really make sense to me, and should be replaced with "ease" (Specialized torque sensor sensitivity terminology) or "motor assist factor" (CYC torque sensor sensitivity terminology)

So what I would like is for CYC to move the Motor Assist Factor (torque sensor sensitivity) to the PAS section where it can be configured individually for each of the 3 PAS levels like on my Vado.
 
Mhm. I assume (but maybe I'm wrong) that in each assist (PAS) level the motor support smoothly scales with your input (i.e. measuring your torque and cadence, and from that computing your power), up to the max level (limiting both torque and power) set for this assist level. But setting these PAS levels doesn't do what you want?
What prevents you from setting PAS level 3, then setting the motor assist level to the value you want, and AFTER that setting PAS levels 1 and 2?
And what does OP mean (in 'OP and unnatural')?
 
Gruesome said:
Mhm. I assume (but maybe I'm wrong) that in each assist (PAS) level the motor support smoothly scales with your input (i.e. measuring your torque and cadence, and from that computing your power), up to the max level (limiting both torque and power) set for this assist level. But setting these PAS levels doesn't do what you want?
What prevents you from setting PAS level 3, then setting the motor assist level to the value you want, and AFTER that setting PAS levels 1 and 2?
Click to expand...

Deficiencies in the (PAS) settings of CYC Ride Control​

Motor Assist Factor Explanation:
The CYC Ride Control Manual defines the Motor Assist Factor as follows:
"Motor Assist Factor: This value pertains to how hard you need to pedal to get full power."
Click to expand...
Current Implementation Issues:
  • The Motor Assist Factor is a universal setting, separate from individual PAS levels.
  • Tuning the Motor Assist Factor for Class 3 speeds on a 42T chainring in PAS 3 makes PAS 1 and PAS 2 feel overpowered and unnatural.
  • This setting significantly impacts the performance of the Photon, making it difficult to balance performance across all three PAS levels.
Individual PAS Tweaks in CYC Ride Control:
The CYC system provides two settings for each PAS level:
  1. Max Power Level in Watts
  2. Max Motor Torque Output in Percentage
PAS Torque Level setting controls the motor output torque according to Cathy (from the linked video above):
"If you have the Photon system and the max torque is 110Nm, setting your mid level to 50% would result in 55Nm."
Click to expand...

Comparison with Specialized Turbo Vado:
  • On the Specialized Turbo Vado, each PAS setting has two parameters: Power and Ease (torque sensor sensitivity).
  • This approach allows for more precise tuning of the assist level and torque response for each PAS setting.
And what does OP mean (in 'OP and unnatural')?
Click to expand...
  • OP means "overpowered," indicating that the assistance in PAS 1 and PAS 2 becomes too strong and unnatural when the Motor Assist Factor is optimized for PAS 3.
  • Desired Outcome: Each PAS level should have its own Motor Assist Factor setting, so you can adjust the torque sensitivity individually. This way, PAS 1 can be gentle, PAS 2 can be moderate, and PAS 3 can be powerful, without any level feeling off.
In Closing:
If the Motor Assist Factor could be set individually for each PAS level (like on the Specialized Turbo Vado), it would enable fine-tuning of the responsiveness and support level separately for PAS 1, PAS 2, and PAS 3. This adjustment would allow for a more balanced and natural feeling across all assist levels.

Sorry, it's late and I'm tired so I had GPT-4 try and clear up what I am trying to say. If it still doesn't make sense I give up.
 
I think they should call it torque multiplier. I'll take a stab at trying to explain as well since I definitely agree with Nervagon. From what I can tell all the assist levels do is set a limit on the maximum output of the motor. So if I set the motor assist factor to 100% it will multiply the torque by some value, for now let's assume 2 though what value 100% actually corresponds to who knows, casual observation says it's bigger than 2 but hard to tell more confusing terminology. It will use the same value regardless of assist level. So I have the photon set to 25% (and I'll use 100nm as max torque for simplicity so this would be 25nm limit) on level 1, 50% (50nm) level 2, 100% (100nm) on level 3. If I put 5nm on the pedal, I'll get 10nm from the motor regardless of what level I'm in. If I put in 20nm, on level 1 I'd get 25nm since that's the limit, level 2 and 3 I'd get 40nm. Put in 40nm I'd get level 1 25nm, level 2 50nm, level 3 80nm. Put in 60, level 1 25nm, level 2 50nm, level 3 100nm.

The cycle analyst kind of does the opposite, the limit is the same for every level, but the torque multiplier changes for each level.
 
@Epithemeus , thanks for helping to further clarify the issue I was trying to convey!

Ease (specialized terminology), and Motor Assist Factor (CYC terminology) are both nebulous terms, and Torque Multiplier is definitely the best term for this parameter.

Motor Assist Factor should be renamed to Torque Multiplier and moved to the individual PAS settings section of the app to allow for tunable torque multiplier per PAS level as is common in torque sensing ebikes.

I cosign your feedback above.
 
Ok, that sounds like a not so smart setup then. So instead of changing the factor (slope) of motor torque vs human torque with assist level, the Photon always uses the same slope (torque multiplier) and just cuts off at different levels. That wouldn't work for me at all.
They need to hire better programmers at CYC.
 
Gruesome said:
Ok, that sounds like a not so smart setup then. So instead of changing the factor (slope) of motor torque vs human torque with assist level, the Photon always uses the same slope (torque multiplier) and just cuts off at different levels. That wouldn't work for me at all.
They need to hire better programmers at CYC.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's the gist of it. But you are going to get jousted by a certain white knight for insulting their coders... when the coder/s may have simply implemented the design outline provided by the execs on this particular issue.
 
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