100 mile ebike @ 30mph constant on flats without headwind?

[veloman]

Don't forget to move around on the bike, get your butt off the seat, stand, change hand positions, did I mention cruise control throttle? OH MY, I would NEVER do a long trip without one. I love using it for even 1 minute of straight riding. It really makes you feel like you are doing no work. Cruise and coast, and it's like a magic carpet. Gawd I love ebikes. Then you have both hands free to eat while riding (haha, as a road cyclist racer, we learned to ride no handed to eat while riding. Easier on the road bike than a heavy ebike though).


If I was building a 100 mile range ebike, there is no question it would be a recumbent with a tailbox and possibly a front fairing. Comfort and efficiency would be unparalleled.

 

[mvly]

• +1 Recumbent: That will work well for a more relaxing ride. Caveats: You will not save that much from lower aero unless you do the shell, and even then the best that can be achieved is about 1/3 less wind resistance.
• A trailer would definitely help, although I didn’t care for the Bob Ibex; too flimsy and heavy – and it could not carry the advertised weight, hence the reason why I made my own.
• You want to leave in April… this year?
• San Diego to Seattle sounds great. :wink:
• Check the weather: In late summer-fall the wind blows north to south, so you might want to reverse the direction. Almost everyone… ok, E V E R Y O N E that I saw riding cross-country was going the other way.
• The PNW will be wet, Wet, WET so prepare for that.
• On Hwy 1, there are dangerous road conditions due to construction around Montara south of SF; just take over the lane through that section and drive like a bat outta hell to get through it cos there’s no room for cars and bikes.
• Oregon roads are well-maintained; they are very bike-centric and I enjoyed my travels through the state.
• I came across fog of all things when leaving Hollister towards Santa Cruz: Pick out clothing that is highly visible and reflective.
• The first few days I started out late, though eventually built my stride by leaving before the crack of dawn: Less cars on the road when leaving congestion – and they’re headed the other way, less wind in the morning (I noticed that wind picked up between 12 Noon to 2 PM), more time to get to your destination, better chance of finding a room when you get there.
• By Week-4, I was riding an average of 140 miles/day which translated to 7 hours, not counting rests. This is a pace.
• Loop through the Sierras: The route I took was pretty good; I would change little except to see what I may have missed. Some roads should be avoided, like Tionista and Panoche’s Jackass Pass, though I don’t think it would affect you very much. Gosh, now you have me thinking of a border-to-border run: Vancouver BC to San Diego. Ha! Maybe after my next road trip; I’ve got one in the works now that is going to be an awesome feat for 2013.

When you get underway, let me know when you get close so we can meet up. We can be brothers with Justin in the E-pic Touring Club! 8)
Cheers, KF

The plan is april 2 years from now.
I need time to build and perfect the long range ebike.
Hopefully by then they will be done fixing Hwy 1 and it will be safe again.

I will let people know once I get it perfected.

As of now, the lack of funding and time is putting this project on hold. Right now it's just brain storming and lay out what I need. Hopefully by then Lithium battery is cheaper/safer/better.

Even now i am still debating on 2 wheel recumbent or 3 wheel. I feel, with 3 wheels, I can just sleep on it. : )

 

[John in CR]

• +1 Recumbent: That will work well for a more relaxing ride. Caveats: You will not save that much from lower aero unless you do the shell, and even then the best that can be achieved is about 1/3 less wind resistance.

• 
  
  KF,
  What's the source of those caveats? PFTA?

 

[dogman dan]

Well, perhaps what kingfish means is that all the panniers and such you will have on the bike will destroy your aero enough to make recumbent or not a bit of a moot point. Unless you have the cargo pods under a shell.

You are simply going to be carrying a few things if it's not a day trip. To some extent of course, you could just carry $$ instead of spare clothes, but you will have to carry rain gear, water, tools, snacks, plus the 2000 or so WH of battery. A few panniers and aero is history.

Part of why I discarded the idea of traveling much faster than 25 mph, and embrace what I feel is a good compromize speed for longer range. 18 mph. Not so slow if you are looking at 80 mile days, about 5 hrs of saddle time. But if there is a town at 40 miles, then I can ride faster and charge at lunch.

Personally, I wouldn't be taking such a trip "to get there" I'd be taking it to see it all. I wouldn't want to ride through Big Sur fast at all.

 

[Kingfish]

Precisely gents; well-said Dogman. The best advantage in my mind to recumbent riding is for the comfort, and if using a 3-wheel then for stability and cargo. Recumbents have moderately lower visibility and theoretically better aero, but without a shell, there isn’t a whole lot to gain. In fact I’d only do recumbent if I was going to engage a shell, and then try to pack the world inside of it for maximum effect.

My bike & trailer had some aero and I know it helped slice through the head wind, but me sitting upright is just a billboard, and the pedals and panniers are straight-up wind caches. I just tried to be positive and thankful that the front faring deflected most of the rain around and not through me. The shape of the trailer provided near-perfect drag that resisted fishtailing at high-speed. In that sense, some drag is useful.

For my next ride, aero figures much larger because of the designed speed; I cannot ignore or entreat it lightly. I have to decide for cross-country if I want to be in the Sport, Sport-touring, or Touring posture… and how can I wrap myself into an aerodynamic cocoon. This is a good challenge; isn’t there a thread on this someplace? Seems we batted this one around for bicycles, but did we for motorbikes?

Seeing the world: Naturally the focus of a road trip on a bike is to experience the raw elements. Believe me, I disliked wearing the helmet, though necessity dictated otherwise. At 30 mph, there’s a lot to see, though some will still be missed. I will never forget travelling through and over Mount Lassen NM, or the sinuous loop around Emerald Bay-Lake Tahoe, or the spacious emptiness (and Chupacabra thoughts) along Panoche-Jackass Pass, or driving solo through the Giant Redwoods, or passing through the idyllic Tahkenitch Lake country in Oregon… So many postcard perfect moments that can’t be taken away, and best of all – I want to go back! 8)

May the gypsy spirit thrive within you, KF

 

[dogman dan]

My day trips over the last 4 years, which have almost linked together a route across the whole state, have been real eye openers at sub 20 mph. Talking roads I've driven at 50-85 mph thousands of times, yet never saw them till I rode them at 15 mph. It really amazed me how much I never saw in the car.

 

[ddk]

someone offered the suggestion of using a cruise control... (too lazy to search who, but great suggestion nonetheless)
I'll expand on that thought, having used all types of throttles for long periods of time.
With an eBike (trike) after all was said and done I much prefer a PAS throttle over a cruse control... dumb PAS throttle at that.
Caveat: prefer not traveling at over 15mph on a bike so my motor/controller/battery voltage is sized accordingly
but what I like about the PAS is the mindlessness of riding an e-bicycle as if it was... a bicycle
I pedal, I go. I stop peddling, I coast under no power other then momentum and gravity.
- No twisted wrists, no sore thumb, no searchy/feely for the right button to operate the cruise

ymmv

 

[Hillhater]

...I much prefer a PAS throttle over a cruse control... dumb PAS throttle at that.

so that is a simple "motion detection" system ??... if the pedals are moving, then the motor kicks in ?
..As opposed to a.. "torque sensing" .. PAS which provides assistance in proportion to the load on the pedals.

 

[ddk]

so that is a simple "motion detection" system ??... if the pedals are moving, then the motor kicks in ?
..As opposed to a.. "torque sensing" .. PAS which provides assistance in proportion to the load on the pedals.

although my trike claimed it uses a "variable-assist pedal sensor" there is only the pas sensor... no torque sensor so I theorize this was (my term) 'marketingspeekz' for a simple pas sensor.
And yes, it just ramps up the motor to full speed with one half a revolution of the pedals and has about a 0.3 s lag before removing power to the motor when you cease pedaling, unless you pull on the brakes which shuts off the motor immediately.
The 'real' effect is caused with a voltage and current-limited motor system that feels as if it were a smarter system.

My current build will incorporate the same 'dumb' pas system but I've yet to get it complete.
That will prove/disprove my theory about the other trike's PAS 'schmartness'

 

[ddk]

*currently building a 50m-100m range trike, stupidly relying on solar panels in loo of more batteries* because I wanna try it

I don't think it's stupid at all. What we're missing to make solar a great option is light weight thin solar panels for a reasonable price. Thin film solar just hasn't come around product and price-wise, but I firmly believe DIY panels could do the trick. Get some modest charging while on the go, but while stopped fold out a bigger area of panels placed at a good angle to the sun. Then it's just a matter of scheduling nice long stops around lunch time. I've got the cells and my only real open item is finding a sufficiently accurate and reliable charge controller to match my battery packs.

there's multiple ways to approach the 'charging' question
The easiest to apply (and the most dangerous without constant monitoring) is to just apply a (diy) panel's output across the battery. You would have to build the panel and wire it for a maximum voltage of 4.1 volts times the cell count.
The problem I actually see with that method is inconsistent charging due to clouds, shadows etc... and sometimes the panel will peak over it's designed voltage output for quite some time.

The safer way is to use a charger such as the 1010B from HK which is just about perfect for a 36V charge controller.
The chargers that require a power supply are all useful as a lithium charge controller, but the 1010B has some additional features the others lack in both monitoring and input power control.
The panels are then wired for ~15-16V and the low voltage cutoff on the 1010B's input can be programmed as low as 10V
the current from the panel can be adjusted by putting the 1010B into 'auto' mode for this function.
I intend to use this method.
I was intending to use 2 each MAX80 chargers from HK for the same purpose but the 1010B offers better monitoring and is a single package vs. two max80s (although a max80 is considerably less expensive)
any method requires temperature and voltage monitoring on each cell

 

[John in CR]

Does the "auto" mode include auto startup after input power recovers after clouds pass by? The need for manual restarts made me dismiss RC chargers as potential charge controllers, since I lack the electronics skills to modify their switching to an "auto on".
John

*currently building a 50m-100m range trike, stupidly relying on solar panels in loo of more batteries* because I wanna try it

I don't think it's stupid at all. What we're missing to make solar a great option is light weight thin solar panels for a reasonable price. Thin film solar just hasn't come around product and price-wise, but I firmly believe DIY panels could do the trick. Get some modest charging while on the go, but while stopped fold out a bigger area of panels placed at a good angle to the sun. Then it's just a matter of scheduling nice long stops around lunch time. I've got the cells and my only real open item is finding a sufficiently accurate and reliable charge controller to match my battery packs.

there's multiple ways to approach the 'charging' question
The easiest to apply (and the most dangerous without constant monitoring) is to just apply a (diy) panel's output across the battery. You would have to build the panel and wire it for a maximum voltage of 4.1 volts times the cell count.
The problem I actually see with that method is inconsistent charging due to clouds, shadows etc... and sometimes the panel will peak over it's designed voltage output for quite some time.

The safer way is to use a charger such as the 1010B from HK which is just about perfect for a 36V charge controller.
The chargers that require a power supply are all useful as a lithium charge controller, but the 1010B has some additional features the others lack in both monitoring and input power control.
The panels are then wired for ~15-16V and the low voltage cutoff on the 1010B's input can be programmed as low as 10V
the current from the panel can be adjusted by putting the 1010B into 'auto' mode for this function.
I intend to use this method.
I was intending to use 2 each MAX80 chargers from HK for the same purpose but the 1010B offers better monitoring and is a single package vs. two max80s (although a max80 is considerably less expensive)
any method requires temperature and voltage monitoring on each cell

 

[Kingfish]

I can’t believe we are entertaining solar again as an energy resource for long-distance. If the solar is collocated at the destination(s), fine and good. If we have days to recharge between segments of a trip, it might be feasible. But carrying solar on the EV for complete daily recharge – and we’re talking the 100-mile range @ 30 mph… unless it is a custom design with a very large surface (and actually this would render it self-defeating for any other function – like commuting), I can’t fathom it justifies discussion. The technology isn’t economical or high-enough in density to be practical.

Or are we just interested in doing only the one thing? The OP isn’t clear on that.

For my money, I think that creativity is better served trying to make a better motor with integrated systems from the ground up. I think that crafting a bike that can have dual use is of better utility year-around. Even if I won a large lotto, I’d still want a bike that could do both cross-country, commute, or dash to the store for ice cream; it should be that convenient. Setting up my home, my office, my campsite to support my EV is deservedly a different topic altogether.

Just to prove my point, let’s make this a scientific discovery:

• Constraint: OP says 6 hours maximum to charge, using a 1kW charger = 6kW/day. Without pedal assist, the distance cannot be achieved unless there is a profound tailwind (not to spec). However, in the State of Washington, a moped is allowed to travel up to 30 mph and have a maximum output of 2 hp = 1.4914 kW.
• Constraint: 100 mile range @ 30 mph = 3-1/3 hours. Calculate the power required.
  • Loosely, 1.4914 kW * 3-1/3 hours = 4.9713 kW, which is less than 6kW/day. Theoretically it could be done, but in practicality it can’t.
• Challenge: Find me a moped with a 2-hp motor that can go 30 mph for 3-1/3 hours and is electric.
• Challenge: Find me a 1.5 kWh solar panel that can fit on a bike (this would recharge the bike as it consumed power). Let’s say I ride for 3-1/3 hours and park for 6 hours; that’s 6 kW/9-1/3 hours = 650 W/h. I found a panel on Amazon that can do 200W @ $1,000 each; I’d still have to carry 3-4 panels to meet the goal. We’d still need to carry batteries. It's cheaper to plug in.

My suggestion is that we go get the highest output moped, modify the motor so it can output 3-4 hp, add 80-100 lbs. of LiPo, toss in a 1.5kW charging system, and call it a day. It’s the least expensive route I can think of.

~KF

 

[ddk]

Does the "auto" mode include auto startup after input power recovers after clouds pass by? The need for manual restarts made me dismiss RC chargers as potential charge controllers, since I lack the electronics skills to modify their switching to an "auto on".
John

John,
I don't know LOL
but the controller will be right in front of my face so I'm sure to find out :lol:
The 1010B continues to be "out of stock" so I've yet to actually place my inquisitive hands on a real one

I can’t believe we are entertaining solar again as an energy resource for long-distance. ....
etc

"we" are not entertaining solar
I, however, am.
And in fact have been testing various panels and charge methods for several months.
Having extensive experience with solar and intimately knowing where I wanna travel, not only is this doable for me, but less expensive than purchasing the extra batteries.
However, the panels and mounts should be about 5 kilos heavier than the equivalent batteries I would need to travel ~80-100 miles, round trip

Why solar is likely to work for me...
First off I don't need to travel if the weather forecast sucks (important point)
I want to ride specific routes, where I already know the roads. I'm not interested in traveling cross-country. I'm only interested in day trips to adjacent cities.
I don't remotely travel fast and my power use at the speeds I travel hovers around 100w average -i am hardly representative of the average board member here because I've no interest in traveling faster than about 10 mph (unlike , uhm, John LOL)
My trike uses a dual-motor setup quite different than other dual-motor users. One motor is only powered up for hills the main motor struggles with (think about it)
I've been using this setup on my current trike for several months and it works as I intended it to, taking a huge load off the main motor/battery and allowing me to power up hills with moderate pedaling on grades approaching 15% (and I mean *very* moderate, as in equivalent to pedaling on a flat surface without the electric assist.)
The bike lanes over most the routes I ride average 6' wide (10 feet wide for long stretches) Folding out both panels will have one straddling over the right hand side of the road (total ~6' wide) which I don't foresee a problem with, but we'll see.
I'm building the panels myself, using ultra light-weight construction methods. The cells (as currently designed) are to be mounted unprotected and will require constant attention to weather changes. The panels will fold on top of each other for protection... conversely one panel folds under the other if space is a bit narrow (and switched off)
The diy panels will be:
Two panels of ~ 6.5'x3' mounting 75 6"x6" cells each (150 cells total wired for 15v@ 22A for a peak of ~330w but I expect to only get half that on a sunny day at my latitude.
My 200w of panels have generated close to their peak performance here, but I can adjust their angle to the sun. On the trike I'd rather have the panels horizontal, with anticipated loss of power to avoid the worst complications of crosswinds.
These panels will be mounted overhead a custom built, rather funny looking tricycle.
and lastly
I'm building this,
because I can.

 

[veloman]

If you're aiming for 10mph, then damn, that changes things a LOT.

So guys, if he's averaging 100watts consumption while riding..... then that's totally doable to pull that much solar power on a panel mounted on a bike in sunny conditions.

 

[ddk]

If you're aiming for 10mph, then damn, that changes things a LOT.

...

yep I just enjoy the ride where there's lots of stuff to look at :lol:

 

[dogman dan]

What I keep saying. At some point, something has to give, either you slow down, or you carry a ton of battery, or you stop midday to charge awhile.

Bear in mind the OP wanted 100 miles at 30 mph. ddk is a different guy with different goals than mlvy.

 

[John in CR]

Kingfish,

I thought you were an outside the box kinda guy. Think stiff but thin and light DIY panels, say 500W of rated panel output. Forget about glass glazed 25lb 100W panels. 500W is just 125 of the 6"x6" cells I have, somewhere around 33sqft of surface area. Of course you can't ride around with that size panel exposed, not with a practical bike or trike anyway, but there's certainly no reason you can't have 100W in production while riding with the rest folded up and stowed while in transit. Carry just a 1-1.5khw battery aboard the bike, plan your trip for midday stops for 3 hours to recharge with panels folded out and angled directly at the sun. Who wants to be in the hot sun at siesta time anyway? 50 miles in the morning and 50 miles in the afternoon at 30mph is a piece of cake with a comfy recumbent, and still have morning and afternoon solar charging time.

Good roads so you're not pounding your DIY solar panels to death, and good sunny weather is all you need for continuous autonomous riding, and have plenty of power for LED lighting for nighttime camping.

My big hole through the air, heavy scratch built recumbent, built to carry 7-8kwh of battery already does 30wh/mile at 30mph. That's with no faring at all yet, so I've already got room for gear and folding panels by going with a small battery with big aero gains to come.

My 500W of cells were $250, and even including the cost of my EVA sheeting, I should come in under $500 total for my panels.

I believe that covers all of your naysayer points.

John

 

[Kingfish]

John in CR: >>Outta-da-box: I yam, I yam that guy! Normally I’m an incurable optimist to a fault :lol:

But there’s a practicality issue; the elephant in the room is named compromise, and it simply won’t work for a number of reasons, the primary being that the large surface area will create a sail for wind which is bad enough statically, and worse made by forward velocity. A solar bike should be (and all that I have seen, are) made specific for racing or endurance across wide open space.

If, and this is a big if, if all that is desired is to create a bike that runs on solar, Dogman is right: You have to give up something. If that is the case, I will completely back off and say “Go for it!” – though if trying to conjure up a solution for the common man, solar in nearly any form today is like applying trinket-technology; too little to be of value. To make it light-weight you have to reduce the structure: What’s going to happen when you get a bug-hit, or rock, or crash? How will be repaired in the field? Until we get access to the high-density multi-frequency 5X stuff, (and ignoring the cost) it is literally too large of a compromise.

Now if we had access to an RTG…

For myself, I am dangerously optimistic that my next bike will be able to recharge at RV parks; I don’t know if it’s true or not. Many of them don’t allow camping. It’s a risk that somehow I will have to afford.

Encamped, KF

 

[John in CR]

KF,

I don't consider getting off the road for a 2-3 hour scheduled break at the most brutal part of the day and best time for solar to be a compromise at all. Plus it gives me the added advantage of spending time at 2 destinations per day. I've never planned on sail size panels in use while riding. They'd be stowed for riding with just 100W or more of panels permanently attached and generating juice while riding, though some kind of sun shade and more wattage may be possible without becoming too hazardous in side winds. I have no interest in puttering along at 10 or even 20mph. I need at least 25 just to maintain a sufficient cooling breeze, and have set as fast as possible at 30wh/mi as my target. I'll see the sights at my stops and focus on the road with some music blasting during the short as possible 50 mile shots in between destinations.

I think we're on the same page, since neither of us see continuous running on solar power as a practical option. I do however believe good daily distances are readily achievable with solar power charging. Dogman used to be pretty vocal against it too, but I see that he's come around to the idea of long midday stops.

The only tricky part is going to be coming up with thin, light, durable solar panels, but I think I'm on to something that will work for that. The EVA sheeting to seal isn't rigid at all, and epoxy isn't UV resistant enough to put on the top side of the cells. My plan is to use epoxy resin (high temp)+fiberglass on the backside of the cells to form a light and rigid solar rectangle. Then I'll wrap EVA sheet around the front and back and bake to encapsulate the whole thing.

John

 

[dogman dan]

A solar power basecamp makes sense to me. Particularly if you will stay at that camp for long. Particularly if you will ride to the road that dead ends 30 miles from a plug. Perfect for a situation where you may be able to leave the charging station in place all year, like a small hut on some property you have in the sticks.

But personally, I'd rather lug a small generator than solar panels, if the panels will weigh more than 20 pounds. I'd defintiely rather just carry a charger if there is any electricity along the way, and lug a bit more battery.

 

[Kingfish]

Hmmm, 30 mile range, 25-30 mph, we’re looking at 650-900 Watts, 6 maybe batteries with a 3-hour siesta… are they serving Pacifico amigo? The options begin to make sense. 8)

I grant you that in locations with more direct sunlight i.e. the Tropics, the advantages of taking a solar-break midday make sense to me too. On the US West Coast, that is not always an option because the winds pick up between Noon & Two and keep blowing for the rest of the afternoon. Years ago I was gifted a roll-up solar panel, namely to keep my truck battery topped-off during storage. I just did a webcheck and the largest I found was only 20W, so that’s not going to be a viable option. What about fold-up, like squares that can be stowed easily for driving?

This thread sure has twisted around... in a pleasant way
~KF

 

[ddk]

an interesting conversation

... ddk is a different guy with different goals than mlvy.

who is this "mivy" you peak of? :lol:

I'm using 10mm coroplast as the base for cell mounting with 4.5mm fiberglass tubing spaced 300mm crossed to the coroplast's ribbing for additional stiffness; The panel edged with thin aluminum channel and using a 1/8" thick 1"x1" t-extrusion aluminum center piece for additional support.
Mounting to upright aluminum tubes and re-purposed wonderfully lightweight adjustable walking canes
I'll take pictures when I start construction and share the results. Especially if disaster befalls me. :lol:

I personally could not find/buy flexible solar panels that were efficient enough for my use* as by simple calculation it would require almost twice the surface area to achieve similar amounts of power generation monocrystalline cells produce.

*if anyone knows of flexible solar cells with similar efficiencies to mono cells exist, that I can purchase please educate me.

If I needed to travel over 25mph for 100 miles, I'm afraid that ATM I would only consider an ICE-powered moped, scooter or motorcycle.
-or in my case, my motorhome (along with it's disastrous fuel consumption and carbon footprint)

 

[dogman dan]

Mis type. I was meaning the OP, mvly.

This option exists nowdays, for carrying a panel and charging when you get there. 90w, so not so fast.

Only $1500 too! 8) But, it's portable, and not 10w.

 

[John in CR]

DDK,
What are you putting on the front of the cells? I'm going to test just the EVA as a face, though after testing I may have to spring for a roll of thin polycarb to cover the EVA.

KF,
I'll want flexibility of use and any ebike of mine for touring will be long, so my thought would be panels in pairs with hinges on each pair resulting in 2 rectangles that fold face to face. Then series or parallel multiple pairs as needed to properly feed the charge controller. Once I work out the kinks, I'd also like to be able to interlock those pairs to create a shade for the beach. Then once I get around to the family capable electric trike/platform, we can zip the 50 miles down to the beach, blast the stereo all day, and still have a higher SOC than when we arrived to reduce the required pack size to make the return home. We'd need shade anyway and 500W of panel all day with manual tracking, less 50-100W of 90% efficient digital amps seems like I can turn the charge siesta into a real fiesta.

John

 

[ddk]

Mis type. I was meaning the OP, mvly.

oh ya... this thread soes have an op LOL

This option exists nowdays, for carrying a panel and charging when you get there. 90w, so not so fast.

Only $1500 too! 8) But, it's portable, and not 10w.

'only' $1500
:lol:

DDK,
What are you putting on the front of the cells? I'm going to test just the EVA as a face, though after testing I may have to spring for a roll of thin polycarb to cover the EVA

John, if I were you I would not do what I'm going to do (confused yet?)

...which is nothing
perhaps I have less concerns about cells being damaged in my area of the world ... except from an errant pine cone mishap, where I'll end up regretting I did nothing to protect my damaged wafers

KF,
I'll want flexibility of use and any ebike of mine for touring will be long, so my thought would be panels in pairs with hinges on each pair resulting in 2 rectangles that fold face to face. Then series or parallel multiple pairs as needed to properly feed the charge controller. Once I work out the kinks, I'd also like to be able to interlock those pairs to create a shade for the beach. Then once I get around to the family capable electric trike/platform, we can zip the 50 miles down to the beach, blast the stereo all day, and still have a higher SOC than when we arrived to reduce the required pack size to make the return home. We'd need shade anyway and 500W of panel all day with manual tracking, less 50-100W of 90% efficient digital amps seems like I can turn the charge siesta into a real fiesta.

John

and someone thought my plan is ambitious :lol:
and I'm guessing your panels, folded out will be about 7'x9'
a serious sunshade which I'm also guessing you really need at your latitude.
...where my fixed 'horizontal' panels would work much more better-er, but I doubt I could stand the heat