1000w hub motor @ 1800+ watts? Help?!

[michael.i@me.com]

I have a 1000 Watt hub Motor that I bought off of eBay that came with everything that i needed to make it work, problem is, it never worked. Turned out, it wasn't the motor, it was either the controller or throttle or something. ANyways, long story short, I ditched everything except the motor. I went to ebikes.ca and bought an Infineon C7240-NC Controller and matching throttle bundled with a Cycle Analyst. I hooked everything up, and everything spins like it was supposed to.

So, I took the bike out for a ride and it seemed a little rough starting up. like some cogging or something, but only at low speed. Once I got it up to speed, it seemed to go quite fast ~45Km/h.

The Cycle Analyst shows lots of cool info, and this is the part I need some help with. The CA was showing my motor drawing up to 35 amps @ 52volts. this is over 1800 watts by my math, and the CA confirmed this. Does this sound even possible? Could my 1000W motor REALLY be drawing almost twice the power that it should be? I would have thought that my 1000Watt Motor would draw closer to 20-25 amps tops. Can anyone explain whats going on here?

I bought a 40Amp controller because I didn't want it to be too small. Should I have bought one closer to the size of the motor? I thought it was ok to buy a bigger one, just not a smaller one. Can someone verify this please?

Also, I wanted to check the AH/fuel gauge on the CA, so I ran it till the battery cut out, about 14.5 AH according to the CA. My battery is a Lifepo4 48v 15ah pack. So I think my battery is pretty good. What I did notice is that the Hub Motor was VERY hot at the end of my run. too hot too touch, and it "smelled" hot too. Could I have damaged it? I mean it still turns fast, it just got hot.

The CA has cutout features that can limit based on speed, amps, voltage and such. Should I engage these cutouts so it stays running under 1000W? Or is running it near 1800w?

I would really like some help here, Thanks in advance.

Michael

 

[amberwolf]

Is it showing the high wattage *all the time* or only during startup from a stop or similar load situations? If it's only momentary, I wouldnt' worry much about it. I get peaks of over 2KW on my CrazyBike2 on a "500W" hubmotor, but htey dont' last very long. I do run 1KW+ thru it for longer periods of acceleration, with no roblems. Recently I tested out a modified controller and got more than 9KW peaks on it, but if I'd sustained *that* for more than a few seconds at best, it might've damaged something (didn't have the chance, because the controller blew a FET).

MOmentary peaks are calculated using Vmin and Amax. Realtime continuous usage is monitored on whichever main page you have set to show Watts.

If it's continuous, it depends on how easily the hub can dissipate the waste heat from that as to whether it will cause a problem with it or not.

However:

If it is really drawing that much power all the time, it's possible that the motor isnt' wired to the controller correctly, and that you have what is called a false positive on the phase/hall wire setup. This page will give you some pointers on testing for the right setup if you have to:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Determining_the_Wiring_for_a_Brushless_Motor

 

[dogman dan]

Sounds to me like you found a halls and phase wire combination that runs forward, but not the correct one. Keep running and it might fry the motor if that is the case.

 

[rojitor]

Looking at that pic i noticed you didn't install torque arms,at 1800w i think it is a must, unless that frame is made out of hard steel the motor will eventually twist the dropouts and chop the wires.

 

[SamTexas]

Also, I wanted to check the AH/fuel gauge on the CA, so I ran it till the battery cut out, about 14.5 AH according to the CA. My battery is a Lifepo4 48v 15ah pack.

Good. Looks like your CA is properly calibrated.

Once I got it up to speed, it seemed to go quite fast ~45Km/h....
The CA was showing my motor drawing up to 35 amps @ 52volts. this is over 1800 watts by my math, and the CA confirmed this.

Not good. At 45kmh, your power should be around 900W once you got it up to cruising speed on flat ground and no wind. That already includes the typical 70% efficiency of the hub/controller. Are your brakes dragging? Do the tires have sufficient pressure to support the weight?

So, I took the bike out for a ride and it seemed a little rough starting up.

That appears to be the source of the problem. I would heed amberwolf's and dogman's comments about incorrect hall/phase combination.

 

[TylerDurden]

Please post your no-load current draw (WOT while wheel is spinning freely off ground).

 

[michael.i@me.com]

Looking at that pic i noticed you didn't install torque arms,at 1800w i think it is a must, unless that frame is made out of hard steel the motor will eventually twist the dropouts and chop the wires.

A little confusing, and I apologize for that. I am in fact running a torque arm on the right side, that picture was taken before I had it installed.

 

[michael.i@me.com]

Please post your no-load current draw (WOT while wheel is spinning freely off ground).

Well, I was just given the day off, so I am going to do some testing and wire switching and I will post some numbers.

 

[dnmun]

"1000 Watt hub Motor that I bought off of eBay that came with everything that i needed to make it work, problem is, it never worked. Turned out, it wasn't the motor, it was either the controller or throttle or something. ANyways, long story short, I ditched everything except the motor."

you bot a new motor on ebay and the controller and throttle did not work?

did you test the controller output to see if there was voltage on the hall sensor power lead or look for the 5V on the throttle lead?

who did you buy the motor kit from? they should send you new controller if that one is dead.

let us know more so people know who they are dealing with if the vendor refused to offer help. thanks, dm

 

[michael.i@me.com]

before giving up on the ebay vendor, I started a different thread on ES to try and troubleshoot my problems. it can be found here, with a link to the ebay listing so others can see it in detail.http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40328

Ps, on the lighter side of things the ebay listing included 5 "free" gifts lol. they all worked just fine. the bike pump has come in handy more than once. The Bell dings like it should, and the little cheap lights light up just fine haven't found a use for the rubber strap thing tho

I like to keep things light hearted and in good spirits. I tend to take things on ebay with a grain of salt. There are some bargains to be found sometimes, and a whole whack of crap also, very hit or miss.

I should add that with a new controller and throttle the motor seems to work. it guess it was just the electronics that were faulty. and no, they have not replaced the controller to date.

Michael

 

[John in CR]

Too hot to touch is too hot, and will kill the motor pretty quickly, so gather some info first. Don't go messing with wires first.

As TD said we need the no-load current. No load speed too while you're at it. Lift the wheel and run it full throttle, and note the current and speed. No load current should be somewhere around 2A though knobby tires can make it higher. Anything much over 3 means the phase/hall wiring combo is wrong for that motor/controller combo. If you rode it up to 45kph without pedaling, then I doubt the wiring is wrong. No load speed compared to top speed on the flats is important, because if the difference is more than 25% or so, then you're geared too high for the load. Are you a largee person or is your bike more parachute than streamlined, low tires, draggy brakes? The solution would be a smaller wheel.

If all the above is fine, then the getting hot can be how you ride. Lot's of stop and go can heat up motors, hills or course, even big head winds. Keep in mind that the higher the rpms for a given voltage, the higher efficiency your motor will be running. Speeds below half of no load speed get particularly low in efficiency the lower you go (at WOT).

If you have hills on your routes, you need to learn the limits of your motor. Stop and feel the cover to learn what makes it hot. Bog it down to below about 1/2 of max speed on the flats, and you're asking for a melted down motor, and with "too hot to touch" you're lucky you didn't already.

John

 

[dogman dan]

Johns right, pretty doubtfull that you could have reached 45kph with the halls combos wrong. I missed that, thinking in mph like I do.

It's just oveheating from zooming up hills more likely. But I'm still confused why it would start rough if you have the right wiring order. That was what I meant on the other thread when I said maybe you have a problem with the wires, plug, or the halls themselves.

Not that I've ever done that. I've melted a motor or two, with over 2000w climbing hills. Usually takes 30 to 45 min.

As I said on the other thread, don't let your speed fall below 15 mph climbing a hill with that motor.

 

[michael.i@me.com]

Ok, I followed the guide that was posted above to correctly identify my hall outputs and found out that I was in fact using a false positive. I corrected the wiring error and was pleasantly surprised how smooth it went from 1-100%. I then decided to take it for a ride, and I was BLOWN AWAY.

My ride lasted 42.76 Km, lol And i intentionally went up some pretty decent hills and it maintained 25 Km/h uphill. Nice

My pack is a 48v 15ah LiFepo4, and it was fully charged, and I was curious just how far it would go with my local terrain. I am MORE than pleased.

This time I frequently stopped to check the motor and it was never more than just slightly warm to the touch. and I mean just barely warm. i.e., the rubber on my tire was warmer.

I also set the CA to limit the Max Amps to 30 half way through my ride because I noticed that it was still drawing over 35a at times. Changing this keep the Watts down to 1200-1300 max and the top speed I set to 35 Km/h ( it was hitting almost 50Km/h, too fast for me)

When at "cruising speed" my watts did indeed drop down significantly, unlike before. Using the CA Settings it stayed well under 1300 watts, never got hot, and lasted a ridiculously long time imho. And got just slightly warm also. The Controller which is mounted vertically on my seat post stayed very cool also.

I was very surprised that my battery lasted as long as it did. I was not peddling at all, and it put out 18.90 AH according to my CA before it cut out at 42 volts.

So, You were absolutely correct about the hall wires being hooked up wrong. When I did find the right wiring order, the wheel spun backwards. My Infineon 40A Controller has a wire jumper to change the direction, so instead of switching two wires, I just used the Reverse setting.

When I ran the motor WOT with the wheel off the ground, it drew less than 2 amps.

Ok, I promised some numbers, so here they are direct from my CA. If I have missed any numbers, I will get them and post them, just ask.

And in case it is not obvious, by my tone, I am very pleased and wish to thank everyone that posted information that helped me solve this problem.

 

[michael.i@me.com]

Johns right, pretty doubtfull that you could have reached 45kph with the halls combos wrong. I missed that, thinking in mph like I do.

Believe me or not, it did it with the wrong combo, and got super hot like I stated. Glad I didn't fry it.

It's just oveheating from zooming up hills more likely.

This was done on the flat.

But I'm still confused why it would start rough if you have the right wiring order.

I didn't have the right wiring order, but I do now

Not that I've ever done that. I've melted a motor or two, with over 2000w climbing hills. Usually takes 30 to 45 min.

I am glad that I have not yet joined that club.

As I said on the other thread, don't let your speed fall below 15 mph climbing a hill with that motor.

Can you please explain this statement more? I want to make sure I understand this, as you sound like you mean it.

Thanks, Michael

 

[John in CR]

Well we learned something too, ie false positives will get you going to a reasonable speed. Something you didn't mention that would have been a good indicator is the terrible acceleration surely had with the false positive. Glad you figured it out, and all seems ok. If it was me, I'd dump the reverse jumper, swap 2 halls or phases, and find the correct combo of the remaining 5 possible of the other. Though you top speed indicates otherwise, settings for reverse are often less than 100%. I don't know what other options the controller has, but some are unlikely to work in reverse...eg 3 speed switch, regen, and cruise control come to mind.

Happy ending, good job.

John

 

[dogman dan]

Well, just dang glad you figured it out, and are running better now. No need to go buy a new motor or controller just yet then. Just go easy on that battery, till you can afford another. Try to keep your continuous amps on the CA display well under 30.

Pretty amazing you were getting to that speed with only two of the phases firing. 30 kph top speed would be more normal. Must have been the big controller letting 1000w of usable power through.

Goes to show in the end, 90% of what I say on this forum is basicly a guesstimate.

 

[michael.i@me.com]

I don't know what other options the controller has, but some are unlikely to work in reverse...eg 3 speed switch, regen, and cruise control come to mind.
John

can you explain those features to me? I know for a fact I have Regen, and I love it to bits!!!

What is the three speed switch?

I am running an Infineon 40a controller from ebikes.ca

Thanks

 

[mark5]

I don't know what other options the controller has, but some are unlikely to work in reverse...eg 3 speed switch, regen, and cruise control come to mind.
John

can you explain those features to me? I know for a fact I have Regen, and I love it to bits!!!

What is the three speed switch?

I am running an Infineon 40a controller from ebikes.ca

Thanks

auraslip's Infenion controller features
https://sites.google.com/site/shelb...nics/controllers/infenion-controller-features

 

[michael.i@me.com]

...If it was me, I'd dump the reverse jumper, swap 2 halls or phases, and find the correct combo of the remaining 5 possible of the other. Though you top speed indicates otherwise, settings for reverse are often less than 100%. I don't know what other options the controller has, but some are unlikely to work in reverse...eg 3 speed switch, regen, and cruise control come to mind.

Happy ending, good job.

John

Done! That cruise feature still doesn't work however

 

[mark5]

...If it was me, I'd dump the reverse jumper, swap 2 halls or phases, and find the correct combo of the remaining 5 possible of the other. Though you top speed indicates otherwise, settings for reverse are often less than 100%. I don't know what other options the controller has, but some are unlikely to work in reverse...eg 3 speed switch, regen, and cruise control come to mind.

Happy ending, good job.

John

Done! That cruise feature still doesn't work however

You did follow Grin's instructions for setting cruise up (and unjumper reverse)?

excerpt from http://ebike.ca/store/store_controllers.php:

What is Auto-Cruise and how is it enabled?
The controller auto-cruise may is enabled by soldering a small jumper between the controller pad labeled 'CR' and any available ground pad. Once enabled, if you hold the throttle steady at any particular position for a full 6-7 seconds, then you can release the throttle and the controller will maintain the same power.

Also:
"... it also does not seem to work on the most recent 2012 batches of 40A controller units."

 

[michael.i@me.com]

I have not done the solder part yet. I have found the correct wiring method however and am no longer using the reverse jumper. Going to go take the controller apart and make that solder connection today.

I'll let you know