11,000 watt-hours equal about a gallon of gasoline

[ngocthach1130]

oh i wasn't suggesting we swap out battery at gas station. I was merely saying that it is the equivalent to pumping gas. Of course it is not a feasible solution. Just as recharging gasoline isn't a possible solution either. Imagine that, capturing the exhaust gas in a tank then build a system to combine them back as gasoline. Not possible at all when dealing with fuel. Yet with battery we're doing that everyday.

 

[Toshi]

With regard to battery swaps "never happening" google "Renault Israel electric car" and read the news. Guess what they're planning?

 

[truckerzero]

battery swaps with a battery weighing 3,ooo lbs is a every day affair at large factorys because they cant just let their forktrucks sit around while they recharge so they swap the battery and these batterys are about 3,000 lbs 36 or 48 volts and 1000 or 1200 ah batterys (30,000 to 50,000 wh) so it is doable if they wanted to.these battery swap stations have a whole bunch of chargers and you use this kind of cherry picker to move the batterys around it would actually be easy on a pickup style ev with the battery in the bed of the truck

 

[dogman dan]

I thought the propane tank swap stations were a stupid Idea once, but now they are simply everywhere. There are easy tech fixes to all merchandizing problems involved. It would be a great Idea for stuff as small as scooters and ebikes. There's a wallmart every 20 miles or so allready right? For cars it gets just a little bit harder for do it yourself, but people with money will not balk at a service fee to have the battery switched. We used to expect a guy to come out and pump the gas. The vehicle will have to be designed for swapping of course, just like the fork lifts are. Tons of battreries could be charged with solar cells and charge a premium for being green power.

 

[CGameProgrammer]

battery swaps with a battery weighing 3,ooo lbs is a every day affair at large factorys because they cant just let their forktrucks sit around while they recharge so they swap the battery and these batterys are about 3,000 lbs 36 or 48 volts and 1000 or 1200 ah batterys (30,000 to 50,000 wh) so it is doable if they wanted to.these battery swap stations have a whole bunch of chargers and you use this kind of cherry picker to move the batterys around it would actually be easy on a pickup style ev with the battery in the bed of the truck

That's in a factory, not dealing with the public. If the public has to buy batteries then they won't swap them for someone else's that could have been heavily abused or just is older. No matter what, you'll never again see the original pack you paid for, and meanwhile your performance and range can vary significantly with each "fill-up" if you don't completely break down from a faulty battery.

But the far more likely scenario is someone will create a fake battery pack with a voltage but almost no capacity, using a very cheap chemistry, and swap it out for a real one, and then either use the real one or sell it or strip it.

 

[dogman dan]

That is an easily fixed marketing problem. Maybe you never own a battery, just the power stored in it, and pay a monthy fee for the right to use the swap station. More of a you are leasing the battery thing than a you own it thing. And when the battery has been cycled x numuber of times, it gets sold off to guys like us who are hungry for a deal on lithium, or for use in an emergency power supply, or whatever. The battery can tell the company exactly what the customer put it through and abuse is added to his or her bill. The rich folks actually using such a service will be the same market segment now driving a lexus, and won't care about cost. No skin off thier backs to retire the batteries early, or pay a ton, just so they can drive around in circles all day without waiting for a charge. Anything that can be owned is now being rented by somebody. Eventually much quicker charging will become a reality but the easy thing to do now is battery swap. It will work really good on anything using less than 50 pound batteries.

 

[CGameProgrammer]

But you're still ignoring my point about theft. There are people who will sell or strip the batteries, then swap fakes for more batteries to sell. Not to mention the fact that large bulky batteries would be difficult to swap out and the car would have to be designed some weird way, etc. There are actually very many reasons why it's impractical.

The real solution, for a BEV, is to employ batteries that can be charged at at least 10C (6 minutes from 0% to 100%) and use powering stations that can supply the massive power needed to recharge the battery pack in so short a time, probably using its own batteries to store that power until needed, so they can release it all very quickly.

The hard part is just coming up with batteries that can be charged so quickly.

 

[truckerzero]

c game i do belive fast charge is the way to go and these supercapacitors will be the way to do that but they still have to be made a little lighter first and it will work
the nice thing with these is they can be charged hundreds of thousands of times a battery that out lives the car its in

 

[cerewa]

The real solution, for a BEV, is to employ batteries that can be charged at at least 10C (6 minutes from 0% to 100%) and use powering stations that can supply the massive power needed to recharge the battery pack in so short a time, probably using its own batteries to store that power until needed, so they can release it all very quickly.

There is an efficiency loss if the power station uses batteries, plus a cost to operate batteries. And they could just use bigger wires instead.

The neighborhood overhead utility wires can handle the power (they are at 2400 volts, so a couple of amps go a long way) so you just have to hook up to the utility with some huge wires.

If I'm not mistaken, the A123 cells are already good enough to handle 10C charging. That is not to say that anybody is setting the cells up with chargers, BMS, etc that can handle 10C.

 

[paultrafalgar]

Maybe this kind of thing would do the trick?
http://www.vrbpower.com/applications/projects-tapbury.html

 

[JRP3]

Aerovironment has demonstrated fast charge capability with Altairnano batteries. Other batteries can probably do the same or close to it.
But really, unless you drive more than 150- 200 miles a day you will probably never need to get a quick charge at a station, (and pay extra for the privilege), or a battery swap. Tesla has a 230 mile pack, a less performance oriented vehicle could probably do better, or do the same with a smaller pack, so it's certainly possible. Personally I wouldn't need more than a 100 mile pack.

 

[truckerzero]

i think a car that can CONSISTANTLY GET 100 miles per charge coupeled with a big increase in fuel cost say 6 bucks a gallon would make americans sell their ice and buy a ev and in big numbers too

 

[dogman dan]

Replying to cgameprogramer. The theft problem is eliminated by the fact that the company has your charge card number. If you ruin, lose, or switch the battery, they just whack you. Just like any kind of rental you do now. You wouldn't own the battery, you'd be renting it. For a car, or large bike, of course it's harder, but as long as a technician does it for you, the rich won't care what it cost. And of course the vehicle would be designed for swapping. For the really rich, maybe they will just swap the whole car. But for small bikes and scooters with batteries under 30 pounds it will work fine. Obviously the lockers will need to be in a secure place, etc. Again, the problems are easily solved for money. Would fast charge be better. Heck yes! but not at the current prices for fast charge cells. If they get cheap, all we will need is vending machines that sell a plug outlet. We'll be able to stand there and watch the bike for 10 minuites. I suspect that we will see both ways done in the future.

 

[dogman dan]

Another way to approach the problem could be to power a generator with compressed air. That way, while you drive, or park, the air runs a generator to keep topping off the battery. You could stop and get more air really quick. Might weigh too much, but air is light, and tanks could be carbon fiber. Air could be compressed off peak to dispense during the day.

 

[JRP3]

Another way to approach the problem could be to power a generator with compressed air. That way, while you drive, or park, the air runs a generator to keep topping off the battery. You could stop and get more air really quick. Might weigh too much, but air is light, and tanks could be carbon fiber. Air could be compressed off peak to dispense during the day.

That sounds like a very inefficient system: Generate and transmit electricity to compress air, decompress the air to spin a generator to make electricity to run a charger to charge batteries. Plus all that space and weight you're taking up with air tanks, air motor, and generator could just hold more batteries, giving you more range.
People need to think about how much range they really need, not what they are used to having. After 150 mile drive you might just have to take a break and wait for a 15-30 minute recharge if you want to go further, oh no

 

[lawsonuw]

People need to think about how much range they really need, not what they are used to having. After 150 mile drive you might just have to take a break and wait for a 15-30 minute recharge if you want to go further, oh no

Sounds like my usual cross country driving cycle. Though the 15-30 minute recharge is for the driver in my case

Marty

 

[Frank]

Actually the DOE number for ICE energy conversion efficiency is closer to 15%. Well-to-wheels for petroleum products is very efficient; this type of calculation makes a good rule of thumb!

 

[dogman dan]

Some pretty smart folks are building air cars. Sometimes i just get pretty far into the woods with a fantasy. But it could be a way to store off peak electric power, or solar power. Anything to avoid an ICE in the big polluted city. One of these days we will have to find a way to store the solar power overnight. Sure it's inefficient, but not every probelm is best solved by more batterys.

 

[JRP3]

More and better batteries are already a better answer to energy storage than compressed air. What's the benefit in using a less efficient system?

 

[dogman dan]

Nothing if it is less efficient. The only advantage to air I see is the quick refill. So it could be more usefull than batteries for busses, taxis, or any other vehicle where sitting around charging is costing too much money. Pretty soon, i think, batteries will be so good we forget about all other things. Just like we forgot all about mileage when oil was under $30 a barrel. The air thing was just an Idle fantasy. Sorry if I'm getting annoying to ya'all, but I'm still stuck in bed about 23 hours a day, trying to heal my broken collarbones. I've got nothing better to do than pester the forum.

 

[TylerDurden]

Nothing if it is less efficient. The only advantage to air I see is the quick refill. So it could be more usefull than batteries for busses, taxis, or any other vehicle where sitting around charging is costing too much money. Pretty soon, i think, batteries will be so good we forget about all other things. Just like we forgot all about mileage when oil was under $30 a barrel. The air thing was just an Idle fantasy. Sorry if I'm getting annoying to ya'all, but I'm still stuck in bed about 23 hours a day, trying to heal my broken collarbones. I've got nothing better to do than pester the forum.

No worries, dogbreath. (As long as you don't start with spreadsheets and charts.) :wink:

As for compressed air, it's 3.5x more efficient than regen... ~70%, if combined with hydrostatic drives. Google around for testing on the UPS trucks.