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12 kw rc motor
- Thread starter markobetti
- Start date
You dont gain anything from rewinding it. I have 2 of them I rewound one as 8 turns to experiment you gain nothing.wedge said:
if you rewind for 1/2 the kv then you get 4x the inductance. But now you need a controller with 2x the voltage to get the same HP and at the end of the day the better fets are lower voltage.
I will be running it at as hi of voltage I can maybe 170v off the charger to get all the HP possible but if you rewind for less kv then you loose the HP!
Wrong.wedge said:
It does not matter how you wind a motor as long as you have the same copper fill it will have the same torque!
Winding for 1/2 rpm still gives you the same torque.
And I am already at 170v with a 4 turn... How many volts do you think the DIY crowd should be using??? Mosfets are only good to the 200-250v range then 200-350 is a fail area then igbts take over. DO you want to be running igbts and lowed the controller efficiency so far you will have something less then 1/2 efficient then its brushed competitor?
Thud
1 MW
This is a common misunderstanding, what you will change is the tourque per amper. In the apples to apples compairison you will have the exact same tourque potentials from the motor.
Adding too many turns will reduce the Max HP potentials with lower kv numbers....once you hit maximum rpms in a BEMF senario, the higher KV motor wins the HP race.
It truley is an application driven set up & arlo1 is pushing for the big numbers on this thread. For certain you can wind this unit for a lower KV & make it work for some application.....but it would not be in the 12KW catagory any longer.
I get Pm'ed often looking for a "perfect" set up with a custom motor....I usualy refer guy's to the astroflight winding charts....lots of winds available for the 3220's.....but at the end of the chart, all the configs use the same rpm #s to achive the KW ratings advertised....the only variables are voltage & amperage.
You can't re-wind & re-terminate for ridiculasly low kv & expect the same or more power delivery from it with voltage constraints in play.
the laws of phisics are in play in our e-bike world.
View attachment 3220_motor.pdf
Arlo, I am soo impressed with what you are achiving in your little learning experiment....Thanks for taking the time to document your wins & failures...I am way better for the journey.
Mad Props & keep the updates comeing.
T
OK I forgot this motor is a 4 turn-thousand, to use RC speakArlo1 said:
So with this motor there is no advantage to adding more turns, apart from saving on soldering and MOSFETs 600V+ Oh sorry I forgot this is a bicycle forumArlo1 said:
At 600V yes, at 170V no.Arlo1 said:
What you are doing makes sense, and is an interesting project. Good luck with it.Arlo1 said:
gensem
100 kW
I sooo want that Arlo finishs his controller, coz I have an evil desire... Put one big colossus in a bicycle. 
Haha. Im working on it guys. I was up till 12am repairing the driverstages and the brain the last two nights. I have to figure out whats causing my hi rpm failures then get some more numbers beforre upping to the 48 fet controller!
As for people using the controller its not cheep... I need to add up numbers again but I think I'm in the $500-$700 area and that's just my cost on parts. then you have lebowskis chip and lots of time proly ~30-40 hr to hand build one.
I am going to look at building an 12 fet mini monster controller good for ~7-10 kw and will make colossus usable but for a lower price.
Then the 36 or 48 fet controller will be for the big guys. Once I have it all working I will start a DIY controller thread for all to copy me step by step.
As for people using the controller its not cheep... I need to add up numbers again but I think I'm in the $500-$700 area and that's just my cost on parts. then you have lebowskis chip and lots of time proly ~30-40 hr to hand build one.
I am going to look at building an 12 fet mini monster controller good for ~7-10 kw and will make colossus usable but for a lower price.
Then the 36 or 48 fet controller will be for the big guys. Once I have it all working I will start a DIY controller thread for all to copy me step by step.
gensem
100 kW
I hope you get rich while doing it... speed is highly addictive, and being able to output that much power in a somehow small motor is just awesome.
I have a long ways to go to get "rich" but its all relevant. I can build anything my heart desiresgensem said:
As for making a small motor make power we will see. At the end of the day if needed there is other motors out there and in all honesty the motor is the easy part.
As for me getting rich off a controller I built. I don't see that possible.
1 Its lebowski's programing that made it this far and I have a year at the least to get where I could run a motor like this with my code and that year starts when I am done the controller portion.
2 I am doing everything out in the open and letting everyone see how they can do it or make suggestions to help make it better. (not a good way to make money)
3 I owe others like Bigmoose Zombies Methods Luke and a few others BIG time for all the help and it would not be appropriate to sell a controller without them saying its 100% ok.
So as for now its open source and a community project.
The way I see it is its a challenge for me personally and the way I will make money from this if I ever do will be future endeavours. Kind of like when I was in highschool and i restored my 1969 Road Runner while working as a janitor. I learnt a skill and kept at it know I'm one of the best motorcycle mechanics around.
gensem
100 kW
When I was saying rich... i wasnt speaking about money, i might wrote it in a wrong matter, but I was trying to say really rich, like a wise man.
I live in a 3rd world country and Im still able to do alot of ebike related stuff with a relative small amount of money and less knownledge.
To be truth I never did a RC like build... but a motor near the bb is sounding better every time I look at it again.
BR
I live in a 3rd world country and Im still able to do alot of ebike related stuff with a relative small amount of money and less knownledge.
To be truth I never did a RC like build... but a motor near the bb is sounding better every time I look at it again.
BR
gensem
100 kW
haha... relax.. and forgive my english... I learnt by my self and im sure its still not sharp.
Controllers for low inductance motors like this are very expensive. The kelly works but barley and doesn't make much power. Wait till Splinter tries some new firmware in his Kelly to see how well. In the meantime I suggest you read the entire thread on this motor or at the very least the first 10 pages and the last 30!kid08 said:
I used to think like all you guys... Must buy bad ass motor for project... Then I got this one and realized the motor is easy its the controller that costs. My controller is almost ready to run Hi power just have to work out some bugs first.
markobetti
10 kW
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2009
- Messages
- 620
Arlo, you are right. Anyways i havent posted a lot. But next week you will understand why.Its all good, and i am very happy to see the work done by Arlo- the guy who told me ; i will make a controller - and one year from that point you really did....still i am am suprised to see this work that good.. For Lebowski ; We received your chip, and havent been able to work on it. I respect all the work done by you and i am sorry not to answer before. Your chip is inspiration and Arlo is a living proof . We are sorry not to contribute like Arlo did, but its too much for us to handle. Still thanks to all of guys.. Arlo and lebowski , count us in when youre going to make proto cntrls. About motors ; soon new info.
Arlo1 said:
to answer your question with actual experience with this pairing, the kbl72221x you suggested is good for 112a continuous, i would instead use the keb72800x24v-72v350a8kw as its a bit cheaper at $389 and can do 140a continuous, but no canbus or regen.
now just to be 100% clear on the facts, i have used that excact same controller on the bigger brother ca120 motor thats about double the size and power, twice as difficult to drive, and the kelly easily has all the power needed to dominate the motor, have its windings over 150deg c and has NEVER blown up or been more that just warm.
expensive? -$389...
doesn't make much power? -more power than that ca80 motor could possibly handle...
i know this makes you angry arlo, but you may not have looked into, or experience with this particular motor and controller setup and i am afraid thats just how the facts stack up in this case, and remember just cos a kelly can successfully power this 1.5kg motor, this does not detract even a bit from your hugely impressive efforts to build your own waay more powerful controller, and dyno, and seeing it through to get them running.
-its quite simply a question from kid08, to witch the correct answer is yes.
toolman,toolman2 said:
You talk like you think you know what you are saying. But actually it is BS.
Only one question: have you ran this configuration with no load? I mean kelly+CA120 with nothing conneted to it: no transmission, no fan. Did you ever try to run it for, like, 5-10 minutes? What was the temperature after that run? 150°C?
It looks like you have no idea what people are talking about this magical inductance and why lack of it is bad.
Tool Man.... It would be great if you were right. But Im sorry I am not going to waste 300-500 or more on a kelly at this point. Not to mention my controller will be/is WAY better. But at the end of the day the kelly is not working that well for Splinter why don't you ask him about his last visit to the dyno. I Just tried a quick search and I must have deleted the PM from him but he could not make any more then 7HP!!! You can make 7hp from a 80-100 lol So why waste your money and space on this bigger motor. I was under the impression you were helping Splinter and you guys were going to try a faster firmware in the kelly that maybe all it needs. But with my experience of watching what others have proven and dis proven with kelly controllers Luke Splinter DrBass etc. I choose to spend my money building something better make sense?
If you are so sure a kelly is fine go help splinter Lay down some good numbers and I meen numbers at the limits of the kelly it self Untill then its Pish Posh!
If you are so sure a kelly is fine go help splinter Lay down some good numbers and I meen numbers at the limits of the kelly it self Untill then its Pish Posh!
SplinterOz
1 kW
Ok cool down everyone
toolman2 was responding to this question
For which it is not BS I have ridden the bike and it works
toolman2 was responding to this question
For which it is not BS I have ridden the bike and it works
SplinterOz said:
Yes Your bike is Ride able but what are the true numbers?
What I am getting at splinter is people are so excited for this motor but they will end up buying it thinking they can run 12kw all day and never be able to get more then 6kw using a Kelly. This is a recipe for some very pissed of customers.
So lets look at it like this.
Here is 4 quick options that come to mind
Option A 12kw colossus and Kelly that can only make ~7hp at the wheel Cost= 400 controller ~ 800-1000 or more for motor (Magnets went way up since the thread started!) for 1200-1400 or more total!!
Option B 80-100 and Cheep China 18 fet to make 7 hp at the wheel Cost= 150 motor 200 controller $350 total.
Option C Cromotor Hub motor and Cheep China 24 fet Controller or Kelly for 7Hp at the wheel Cost = 600 motor 350-400 controller $950-1000
Option D ME1115 and cheep China 24 fet controller or kelly for 30+ Hp! Price 1250 motor 400 contorller = $1650 http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_motors_me1115.php
Splinter/Toolman just because a controller will turn a motor does not meen it will be the right answer. If you guys try the new firmware and it works AWESOME!
But lets not beat around the bush. We need a controller that can at least run a little past the continius rating of 12kw even for a short period otherwise its a waste of customers money.
circuit said:
-yes i ran them both for hours both on the dyno at full load, no load and everywhere in between, then on a bike and posted up a vid.
tested with a transmition, and without, with a fan and without, and yes from 20deg to around 170deg c and the kelly shows no ill effects like heating or blow ups from the inductance of the motors (the sub 2.5kg rc ones) in question. -BS? -really? where? -did i miss something?
and arlo, no, im not suggesting you buy a $300-$500 kelly if you want to run the collosus, YOU as apposed to others have quite a large controller project on the go :lol:
as we have mentioned on many, many occasions now, spinter is only running headways, and the limits on them are a little lower than the limits of his kelly, thay sag above 5-8kw and thats about all the power he is after for now (his main need power wise has allways been 100kph max) and that power from the last dyno run nearly gets him there, his kelly that was about $800 is now over 2 years old and undersized for the colossus, but suited to all his needs and has still never blown up even after running 250amps into the collosus, around 40NM of torque at a torturous 100rpm, taking the motor over 150deg c within minuets. we will be tweaking this setup further soon, but notice how the above situation is massively disappointing to you, yet splinter is stoked with it, cos not everyone is ALLWAYS after mega maxed out burst power
so arlo i understand that you are using the "no other solution" mentality as motivation for your controller build but it wont help to get angry and shoot down every other persons attempt at running even a small rc motor, there are many people with many ideas and options who may have success with a bit of our help.
just think for a second about what kid08 is hoping to do, its only a litlle 1.5kg motor, he is new, may even have some optimism, in fact he could run it on an 18fet for about $180 (ive done it, but its way touchy on the throttle) so why not give a brother a chance, or even a hand? -isnt that what we are meant to do here??
and yes we are on the right thread, the guy even asked about how to buy a collosus.
anyway, in my opinion the answer to the guys question is yes, yours and circiuts answer is no, now lets call it done and drop this, ill get to some new ca120 motor testing (keen to measure inductance somehow with a function gen and a cro??) and please keep at it and keep us up to date with your impressive efforts on the mega controller and back on topic of the collosus.. -ive heard theres a new one soon?
I have to go back and look at the 80-80 I might be thinking of a different motor but I thought it was one at 10uH inductance.toolman2 said:circuit said:
-yes i ran them both for hours both on the dyno at full load, no load and everywhere in between, then on a bike and posted up a vid.
tested with a transmition, and without, with a fan and without, and yes from 20deg to around 170deg c and the kelly shows no ill effects like heating or blow ups from the inductance of the motors (the sub 2.5kg rc ones) in question. -BS? -really? where? -did i miss something?
and arlo, no, im not suggesting you buy a $300-$500 kelly if you want to run the collosus, YOU as apposed to others have quite a large controller project on the go :lol:
as we have mentioned on many, many occasions now, spinter is only running headways, and the limits on them are a little lower than the limits of his kelly, thay sag above 5-8kw and thats about all the power he is after for now (his main need power wise has allways been 100kph max) and that power from the last dyno run nearly gets him there, his kelly that was about $800 is now over 2 years old and undersized for the colossus, but suited to all his needs and has still never blown up even after running 250amps into the collosus, around 40NM of torque at a torturous 100rpm, taking the motor over 150deg c within minuets. we will be tweaking this setup further soon, but notice how the above situation is massively disappointing to you, yet splinter is stoked with it, cos not everyone is ALLWAYS after mega maxed out burst power
so arlo i understand that you are using the "no other solution" mentality as motivation for your controller build but it wont help to get angry and shoot down every other persons attempt at running even a small rc motor, there are many people with many ideas and options who may have success with a bit of our help.
just think for a second about what kid08 is hoping to do, its only a litlle 1.5kg motor, he is new, may even have some optimism, in fact he could run it on an 18fet for about $180 (ive done it, but its way touchy on the throttle) so why not give a brother a chance, or even a hand? -isnt that what we are meant to do here??
and yes we are on the right thread, the guy even asked about how to buy a collosus.
anyway, in my opinion the answer to the guys question is yes, yours and circiuts answer is no, now lets call it done and drop this, ill get to some new ca120 motor testing (keen to measure inductance somehow with a function gen and a cro??) and please keep at it and keep us up to date with your impressive efforts on the mega controller and back on topic of the collosus.. -ive heard theres a new one soon?
Edit. I looked and it looks easier to run then the 80-100 so it would depend on the winding/kv you will also need to add hall sensors.
As for Splinter he said he is going to try some tweaks and see but if he cant get more then 7HP he is looking at a different motor. So I would not say "he is Stoked with it." Im not sure your guys es game here but Marko him self had problems with Kellys running this motor. You guys are the only ones who will try the better firmware if you ever do and that may help. But IM just trying to point out why buy this motor for 7 hp when you can buy a motor for ~8x less money and a controller for 1/2 the price and get the same results with a smaller motor leaving you more room on the bike?
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