1982 MB-5 30kW peak 230 lbs Complete new VIDEO! 82mph

hillzofvalp said:
May explore using one of these functions. Maybe set normal mode to 320A/360A and then use a boost switch that will give me 400A/500A

Also.. any thoughts on the "noise reduction" guy? It'd be nice if it had a side effect of helping with performance. Also, maybe Kelly could offer suggestions in tuning these for 6 phase (asked before, seemed like they don't have special firmware).
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That's cool stuff to mess around with. I don't know what their noise reduction function does, but I'd guess it changes PWM rate on launch. I don't have a clue what that might do to efficiency and motor heat, though more controller heat seems likely due to more switching. BTW, how warm do those Kellys run? My eb2xx XieChangs with 24 matched 4115's run hotter than I've ever had controllers survive, so no way would I want to run them higher without doing some cooling mods.

I can't remember why I settled on a 1.5:1 phase to battery current limit ratio, but I think it was because lower than that introduced a little startup noise under load.
 
I'll try it today. Fany just told me the noise reduction doesn't affect performance. I'll try it. Also said I may have an ABS option enabled in the settings and that the boost switch actually just gives full throttle.... Which doesn't seem right.

They Kelly's run super cool. They automatically derate at 90C and I've never gotten there. Manual states full power is possible till 50C but ive never lost power. Nice setup. My intention in trying 250A phase is to see of they aren't dud controllers. Warranty would take care of that.
 
Fixed data.. previous data showed no heat at 20kW! haha

Graphs are 5Hz. Delta Deg is change of degrees C per sample (.2seconds). Not perfect data as I'm combating Nashville drivers. In the future I will try doing some more controlled testing, but I think the Delta Deg helps make this data worthwhile. Anything above the middle tick is positive temperature change.. below is negative (degreesC/.2sec). The proper way to do this comparison would probably be to add up/integrate the temperature change over a fixed period in fixed conditions. All these pulls were made at the same bit of road.

These are the settings I have been running. 10-60mph is right around 6 seconds. (this is around 500Wh expended)
deltatTest1.jpg
10-60mph right around 11.2 seconds. This was all mixed in with 1.5kWh of other testing (about 15 minutes after above test allowed to rest).
deltatTest2.jpg
10-60mph in about 6.4 seconds (projected). (Flat is a result of user, fyi)
deltatTest3.jpg
 
Can you put temp on the axis too? I'm confused about deciphering the info other than lower current limits obviously results in less heat.

I need to order some stuff from Ebikes.ca , so it looks like I should order one of their analoggers with GPS. I hope I can easily figure out how to get useful and presentable info out of it. Since I don't use Mac, it sounds like it should be easier, but I'm not much of a tech/gadget guy. With the right thermistors I can get off of this pain in the ass BBQ thermometer that I'm using. Damn thing shows a motor temp of 34°C right now, and the sun isn't all the way up, bike hasn't moved, and it's maybe 20°C outside so the motor must be too. The temps I've posted are what's on the display, not adjusted for any inaccuracy. Based on motor shell temps, I'm pretty sure the displayed temp is just as wrong at 100° too, but I need better accuracy before claiming my vented motor has never gotten above 90°C.

I just wish those Thun torque sensor BB's weren't so expensive, because I'd love to do an extreme power pedelec.
 
Using the temp curve as a basis of comparison is only really useful if each test was made with the same motor starting temperature. I will try something else that is easier to read this is based on temperature change averaging. I should really just do the tet over but start with low power levels first and only do one pull per level

Good, I would use the thermistor I've been using if you want to be exactly the same.. And arctic alumina to the winding
 
Kelly told me I may have ABS automatically enabled since apparently I'm not using the latest programming software. On sevcon's this feature works well as a result of entering in specific motor parameters so that it can accurately predict the torque plot for your motor. I have reason to believe this may be giving me some lag sometimes (one size fits all) so I'm going to try to disable it for a run.
 
Kelly is sending me new custom firmware that can disable the ABS. Idk. Just a test. Probably will be no difference in power delivery if they did it right. I definitely notice it on loose terrain, though. can be helpful. Annoying when trying to burn out for people ;)

I rode about 12kWh since above tests. Commuting style cruises with a lot of 40-65mph pulls. This thing holds up like a champ. 100C at end of runs (22 miles).

Unfortunately the police didn't let me charge here for more than 30 minutes. but 30 minutes is 6 miles extra range. I didn't need it, but it kept me from going down below 20%SOC so maybe practical.
IMG_4412.jpg
 
Yes. ABS is traction control. The controller knows the general profile of torque/power curve so can predict slippage.

DO IT. I think I talked Kelly down to $900 shipped for both my KBL96251s.. and that was just the first try. you can probably get them down to $850. Run my power level! these are 120V controllers so you can do 28S lipo! Do it! ;) I want to see someone else at this power level or more..

...I'm already thinking about 28S lipo. on smaller aluminum frame.. not going to happen any time soon.

Poppin' the hood to let meanwells breathe a little bit. Still waiting on some mounting parts to get 2kW J1772 going

IMG_4415.jpg
 
Whoa Nelly, we gotta wait to see why you're running what I consider too hot still. I went 17mi the other day, mostly highway at 55-70mph and the stator never passed 70°, and I don't have one of those nice scoops on the intake that's gotta help at highway speeds, though my swingarm battery box does have air scoops that are more than just decoration.

Plus I'll need a lot less controller for one in a front wheel that would need traction control, and you know how cheap I like to be. I'm thinking about 80A per controller, which I can do for close $100ea. If the CA3 can't do traction control, it should be just a matter of a bit of programming, since it has everything necessary to pull it off.

I can't believe you went all the way down to 12kw input and you still hit 100°. After running so high before, I bet it felt like a scooter at 12kw. :lol:
 
NO no! I went back up to 30kW after those tests. It was so much fun today.. thinking about pulling trigger on go pro. Too slow at whatever it was.. 144/190x2. Even at 30kW, it's pretty easy for me to modulate the current with torque throttle (via magura) straight through kelly firmware. Had trouble with gps connectivity today, so didn't get data.

To tune the bike correctly for optimizing power and minimizing waste energy I really need to go out in the country and do 1/2 mile forward and return runs to eliminate a lot of variables.. and start with room temperature motor possibly.

Where is your post/pictures on the barbeque installation? It may be time for congruent measurement techniques. I encourage you to get this thermistor and arctic alumina for around $15 (I won't be adding a barbecue thermometer to mine, unfortunately).

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?x=-1188&y=-74&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=495-2142-nd

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835100013&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-Thermal+Compound+%2f+Grease-_-N82E16835100013&gclid=CM3l4MuqwLoCFQto7AodPGYARA
 
Whoa you are from nashville? I rode this thing back and forth on lebanon pike before. Really fun taking that road downtown.. pretty. yOu may recognize one of the pics above near the train station.

The headlight is a cheap magicshine that I used on my ebicycle. It is not sufficient for >35mph and I mainly use it for daytime visibility (law).

I just put on a 150/70-13 tire for cosmetics. 8% change in speed and efficiency ranges. I think it will be worth it, but I am able to switch back anytime. One of these days this year I'd like to part with this motor and put my A123s to work with maybe twice the power (add 4S for 32S, too) ;). This bike was not designed to run such a wide rear tire. I dislike it for weight and because of aesthetics. This isn't a 500cc bike. no 150mm tire or even 130mm for that matter is necessary. I'd like to run 120 max

It's been so cold!!! 12F now in early March is stupid. I hate indiana. 43F on Friday I'll take it out for a cruise. Then in April I start doing some deliveries with it. :mrgreen:

IMG_4888.jpg
 
John in CR said:
So the ABS is traction control? That sounds cool and is just what I need for the front motor on a 2wd.
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I lied, I think, and I'm surprised that I did because I knew that ABS was anti lock braking... so it's good still that I can disable it at least on one controller because I think it is why I'm getting nasty sounds during regen. I think the controllers are not in sync and are applying anti lock at wrong times. I will disable one and it should be fine.
 
I missed the posts till now. Regarding the larger tire, what did you mean about efficiency? ie was it an 8% hit?

Regarding the ABS, if the regen is pulsing then I can imagine that causing issues. Regen by it's very nature is ABS, though the wheel can turn slower than actual speed. I've heard my regular regen chirp the wheel a bit on bumpy stuff.

As far as the wide tire, mine is on a bicycle and I really like the big fatty.

I'm just patiently waiting for the cargo company to pick up the crate in FL with my 65c/130c nanotechs. Then I'll have a light enough load to give my 22.5"OD 16" wheel a go. I think I'll do some aero treatments too and see what she'll do at 30s with low sag. :twisted:
 
8% change in speed. I ballpark 8% hit in efficiency. I've been riding it.. it's a little less peppy but at this point I don't care cause I want 100kW. I'm sitting way lower now so that helps cut some of the load.

I'll try the abs thing in a week or so. The shop didn't seat the tire right so I have a hop I need to take care of.

Good luck with nanotechs. Preserve your fatherhood, if you may. I want to add 4S to this one of these days. I'll probably build a 28S 42Ah VTC4 pack before that happens.
 
It may be the tire not the seating. I bought 2 tires that weren't round.

You're a skinny guy, so you really need to try a 130lb or less bike with big power before trying bigger power on a tubby bike if performance is what you want. My bigger power plans are for a distance cruiser that will have a lot of battery weight.
 
I find it hard to believe that you would get an 8% hit in efficiency with an 8% difference in speed/tire size. Efficiency wouldn't change THAT much I would think. 8% is a lot.
 
veloman said:
I find it hard to believe that you would get an 8% hit in efficiency with an 8% difference in speed/tire size. Efficiency wouldn't change THAT much I would think. 8% is a lot.
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HOV increased an already less than ideal gear ratio (due the total load) by over 10%, so to me just an 8% efficiency hit is pretty good for a 10% increase in wheel size. If he was running much lower current levels, or combined the change with a lower voltage, then average efficiency wouldn't suffer much. The larger wheel keeps him at a lower efficiency point in the curve at all times (same power out for a given speed at lower rpm), and on top of that he has less acceleration, so he spends more time at those points of lower efficiency.

The overwhelming majority of DD hubbies on ES are geared too steeply. The exceptions would be the really high power motors pushing light enough loads that at that voltage they are mostly stress free, or even lower powered motors running the right voltage with generally flat terrain. The HubMonster on my 150lb SuperV with 250lb+ me was dancing with the limits with 74V nominal using a 19.25"OD wheel. At 111V nominal I'm far enough past it that effective ventilated cooling is required to avoid very frequent thermal cutbacks. I went from a 50wh/mile average to a 60-70wh/mi average riding roughly the same speeds. Some of that efficiency hit is from the controllers producing far more heat due to more time at partial duty, but it's mostly in the motor due to shifting operation toward the lower efficiency end of the curve.

Yes, I'm planning to run a 17% larger wheel at the same voltage, but to pull that off I'm going to reduce total load by a similar %. I'll still take some efficiency hit from running a lower rpm for the same speed, but I should be able to offset that with gains from improved aero, so increased losses during acceleration will get offset at cruise. That should achieve a net result of equal acceleration performance, with a higher max speed, and similar or better overall efficiency.
 
I like to say 8% because that trains my mind to be more cautious pumping the power and racing 250cc bikes. In reality most of the time it's less than 1% change because I'm not pulling 20-60mph every minute.

Did deliveries with this thing the other day. It still pulls nicely even with this tire. I used to delivery sandwiches on my ebicycle... but this is so much better. I still am able to take it on sidewalks on campus only because it's so damn quiet (slowly)! I roll around people without startling them. I love putting this to work as delivery vehicle. I get paid per hour PLUS the tips PLUS 50 cents per mile. Guess how much I pay for gas? $0.00. Average 20 miles per 3 hour shift is an automatic $37 + tips, which are usually $15-30. So worst case I get paid about $15/hr to go have fun on my motorcycle.
 
It's a shame that these motors have such small rims, but that's the nature of their scooter origin..

What's your next motor going to be? the cromotor mammoth ( basically a half-pole count, 45mm wide magic pie diameter stator ) would be a lot of fun, and you could run the larger wheel you want without issue.
 
I'm considering a mammoth. but I'd like to retain a 6 phase setup. I want to see if I can get a bare one with no winding. magnet wire factory is right down the road... and I get free samples.. haha "samples"

I'd like to shed some weight in the wheel. .I think the mammoth would get me there. Problem is my swingarm is like 190mm. aren't mammoths like 150? I could lace that guy in a 17" rim to match the front,, then this bike wouldn't look so fluffed up
 
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