1982 MB-5 30kW peak 230 lbs Complete new VIDEO! 82mph

ATTENTION: ALWAYS USE "BALANCED" MODE ON KELLY KBL CONTROLLERS! (Not "Torque" or "Speed" Mode)

Can anyone shed light on these settings as far as what it is actually doing on the technical side?

I always wondered why low end was so weak even with high phase current setting. Now this thing is a beast... it is a rocket ship. Takes on heat faster, obviously. I'm going to tune it down a little bit on motor current a little bit.

I was able to regen a good 75A from 80mph. However, I have decided to disable one controller regen and/or ABS because of this terrible sound it makes.

edit: I can definitely tell that the controller is doing power stage temperature limiting with these new settings. I think toning it down on the phase current will also help a bit here. Controller cases stay around 32-37C. The thermal limiting often goes away quickly, sometimes even seems to reset if I zero out the throttle and then reapply it. In other words, if I WOT from standstill , there is sometimes noticeable lack of thrust but then when I reach 20mph I "pretend shift" and the power returns.

In any event, this now feels as peppy as my old cromotor setup.. sad comparison, but true. Very responsive. This is the thread that led me to change to the balanced setting:

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13530-new-kelly-kbl72401e (warning, there is a lot of bad advice in that thread)
 
Great to hear that Balanced mode gives it a real boost in take off current. Was originally abit disappointed with kelly controllers and their take off power so if this fixes it i will be in heaven :). Only thing i could fault about the controllers atm.
 
I always thought something was wrong. I figured you had already tried all of the controller options, which is why I kept pushing to check the wiring. Glad to hear a simple setting made a big difference. Put 50-70lbs in a backpack and do a short blast just there and back. Then imagine the same difference but going the other direction with a 150lb or less bike. :shock: That's what I've been waiting for one of you normal weight guys to do with HubMonster, an all up load of under 350lbs.

Regarding the heat, you did tap threads in the bolt holes for blades on the exhaust side, didn't you? You've gotta try the exterior blades. Not only does it get drastically more flow through the motor, but it also sucks air from left to right across the exterior shell. Don't even worry much about getting them to extend much on the inside, because I'm sure it's the sizable blade outside that does the heavy lifting. I don't know what the metal I used is, 1"x1" flashing for roofing or something, but it works perfect for blades, because it's rust proofed, easy to cut with tin snips, plenty rigid due to the shape, and the shape also makes them work like lock washers. None of my bolts have budged, and I haven't touched them in many months since installation, no nut or anything, just the few threads in the motor shell material. Some reminder pics:
Hubmonster slots and blades 2.JPG

With your great little air scoop on the intake side and better cut exhaust slots yours should work better than mine at speed, since at higher rpm mine gets harder to intake with higher velocity air at a right angle to intake slots and holes, while yours creates low velocity perpendicular to the intake and more importantly increased pressure outside. I almost never even turn on my thermometer. I do so out of curiosity mostly, or when I plan to ride extra hard. Heat simply isn't a worry and my higher voltage naturally creates more heat with all else equal.

The other half of the heat equation...current settings: Start low and step them up in increments until either the increased acceleration begins to taper, heat increases more quickly, or you get to your desired performance level. If you have a way to control the relationship of battery and phase current, you want it as low as possible for best efficiency. On all of my high power rigs I've always ended up settling around 1.5:1 (phase:battery). It takes patience to dial it in right with so many short rides and reprogram, but you only have to do it once and you're done. Most on the forum go ass backwards and simply set things as high as possible, which is the route to controller and motor failures along with lower efficiency and thermal limiting kicking in.

It's battery current you want to maximize, not phase current. That's because battery current is controlled better by the BEMF of the motor. High phase currents just pile on the heat during the times of heaviest load, the first rotation or two of the wheel, hills, or stop-n-go traffic.

Time for a new video now that you're running right. :mrgreen:

John
 
Bluefang, be careful.. You are loading it way more than me, as I may recall.

John, all good comments. It is a time consuming process, especially since I do not have a laptop. I run a 30 foot USB extender out of my 2nd story apartment window out to my bike.. up and down the stairs for each controller... :shock: . I will mess around with it more today. I did notice one of the controllers is coming on slightly (very close) earlier, so I will have to try to address this.

I want to try blades, but I want to use black plastic L channel so I Don't have to paint or deal with cutting sharp metal. I hate cutting metal unless I'm using a CNC. My 150lb friend rode my bike. Significantly better performance. I was surprised he could do so many launches without getting above 90C.

What happens when a motor is subjected to water mist at temperature over 100C? Where does the corrosion take the most toll? I know it's frowned upon, but I have been doing it after rides when it is really saturated. I liked where farfle was going with his race bldc misting setup.. but I would do a much finer mist and probably more intuitive misting algorithm so as to avoid excessive misting and resulting loss of control ;)

If the damage is reversible, say by a rewind after an acid bath, I don't mind doing it. Even still, I don't mind doing it since it's a fairly inexpensive motor.

EDIT: My ICE is overheating. perfect. It's so funny how much energy overheats an electric motor compared to a ICE.. idiots.
 
Wow. I don't have a laptop either, so I have to wheel my bike in next to my computer, but that's all a ground level. I'd pick up an old used one just for programming bikes before jumping through the hoops you do.

Plastic angle iron??? The side parallel with the line of travel isn't just for structural support. It blocks air from simply rushing in from the right side to fill the low pressure region created by the blade. A circular plate might be better or the T shape you mentioned before. It's experimental at this stage, so I can't see putting lots of effort in when they're almost as easy as cutting a piece of paper.

Cutting plastic is far more dangerous, because that's typically done with a razor knife. Drilling the bolt hole in the metal blade is also more dangerous than the cutting, but thick work gloves make them both relatively risk free. If you're worried about color, simply hit them with some spray paint and handle with a bit of care during installation. You have heat issues, and the hard part is already done. It's so easy to cut some blades and give it a try, and it makes the ventilation far more effective, so to me not at least testing it is a mistake.

I hate getting dragged into the liquid cooling discussions. Didn't Farfle cause his bike to get crashed or at least made uncontrollable by dumping water on the track and/or tire? Before even considering any liquid, if I needed more cooling I would (in order) try:
- Add an air dam similar to yours, but probably a bigger scooping area and try to make a way to filter the incoming air.
- Make my blades and exhaust holes behind them larger for more air flow.
- Add a temp activated switch for an active blower with a filter.

To me once we accept opening our motor, then air cooling will get a motor to it's reasonable limits. Our electrics aren't like ICE's where we can tune and mod them to drastically more power. Yes, our lighter loads enable us to use them at several multiples of the factory pig scooters, but the current limit is finite, because the electromagnets in our motors are finite. That's why I cringe when Bluefang talks about the power he wants to take HubMonster up to. Getting even close to the limits is a mistake, because it decreases efficiency so much that more motor is lighter than the extra batteries you have to carry.

Sure a mister can help get rid of heat, probably at little risk to the motor. How do you know the limit? You don't even know the temperature of the stator since you installed the sensor on the copper. I wouldn't want to even consider the risk of too much water getting to the tire. Personally I've been cooled by a mister at an amusement park here, and it is easy to go overboard and get wet. I'm sure the limit varies quite a bit with environmental conditions. I'd take the consistency of an adequate fan over that mister any day for cooling myself.
 
I'm starting to understand your position in the copper vs stator iron temp reading debate.... as I have the probe on the winding. When I cool the motor with water after a hard ride, I notice that the temperature reading can be at 80C and I will still get a lot of steam, indicating that the stator iron OR other copper is still above 100C. I think I tested this though with my cromotor and found that the disparity isn't significant. Takes too much energy to discuss this in depth, so...

I like the mentality of trying air first. Active air would be super cool too.. I have tons of space for that on my swingarm. which fans do people use?

May take a peek in there and see visually how things have held up all this time, and enlarge the intake holes. I can snap some pictures. I'm really curious what it looks like.. willing to bet that it is still pretty pristine. Maybe some white oxidation from the tap water sprays... I'm at around 1700 miles atm.. been through rain, salt, and crap.

Did 80mph today.. feels pretty solid

First-- thermostat for ICE.
 
There's a big difference in temp copper/stator steel only during the short spikes. It should have been readily apparent on the Cromotor too as evidenced by HJNS posting a temperature graph and he actually believe that his motor cooled down by several degrees in a matter of seconds.

If you're going to continue running yours at such high phase currents, I wouldn't do away with the sensor on the copper, I'd use both. Maybe do an audible alarm for the one on the copper and then tie the one on the steel to the CA3 with lower temp settings for the cutback. Then you only get the throttle cutback when the motor is hot, but you also have protection to avoid cooking the varnish on the copper with the short-term spikes.

The blades are truly so simple yet effective that you've gotta get them on. I'm floored that you would spray water in the motor instead of trying the blades.
 
I don't know if it's an MB-5 anymore. My friend calls it the MB-FastAsFuck-icycle. The removal of the seat helps a lot with aero and makes it feel more like a racer. I'm really interested in making some real aero fairings (ugly ones) to extend my range a solid 10 miles. I think this A123 pack deserves another 2000 miles or 150 cycles before I pony up for the VTC5 5.4kWh replacement (same weight).
 
I bought one of these with a small crack in it for $40 off ebay.
It's probably the easiest way to get started with aero treatments
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cafe-Racer-Style-7-Emgo-Viper-Front-Fairing-Harley-Honda-Kawasaki-Suzuki-Bobber-/331191738623?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d1c90e0ff&vxp=mtr
 
i think i might have told you this before i but i would look into the direction of craig vetter. http://www.craigvetter.com/

also if you are thinking about making a custom i would check out some of the builds at recumbents.com...here is one that details the construction pretty well: http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/misc/nocom/tb/default.htm

and finally here is a little test of a shell over a CAD model work in progress. this would be (in my opinion) the ideal fairing. obviously i still need to cut out the necessary holes to sit comfortably and for the tires/proper steering

motoped 5 28 aero by mjansevreeling, on Flickr
 
Hey hillzofvalp, are you still using a cromotor or have you moved to a different hubbie? Starting a similar lightweight motorbike build very soon, nothing as extreme as yours though!

Edit: read through the whole thread and found my answer. Great work anyway :)
 
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