2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor

[panurge]

Hello guys

My 24" motor on a 700c wheel at 9s lipo runs at 40kph (no load) on 10s it runs at 45kph
Note that 9s lipos is more like a 10s LiIon if you take count of the sag and the volt/discharge curves, especially if the LiIon pack is not that big
The fun is that with a light 700c bike I'm able to reach that speed by pedal alone, so in fact I'm able to get some significant assistance for the entire range of the no-load RPMs of the motor....

I've no direct experience on a stock 48v setup, although I did some try with the 12s lipo pack of my AstroBike (at 46v), but from my part, even if I'm also ordering a 48v controller for the 36v rated motor, I think that this motor is the right one to think one time about a downvolted system (9s) rather than only overvolted ones as usual for us...

Other infos and dissertations:

- The Lishui controller couldn't be preprogrammed for a <31V LVC but I asked and have the KT LVC at 28v, to have the opportunity to test also 9s Liion That's a good voltage/chemistry for lightweight EUlegal bikes with light and compact Battery packs.

- The KT controller (my sq.wave one at least) seems to need to cut-off the power to process inputs from the switch in any case, sometimes for milliseconds sometimes for dimes, this means that even if the switching action leads to the same gear (from manual/low to auto/low for instance) you get anyway a dead power instant...that is not the case with the Lishui, that seems to proces the imput and calculate the correct gear (accordingly to its logic) without any power interruption and to cut power only if the resulting gear is different from the current one so that it has to reverse the spin direction....

To make a real world example, Figure out to cruise in high speed (auto mode) and you know the controller it's close to downshift and would probably stay there for the next 100 meters, but, for some reasons, you want to avoid that: you can switch to high speed manual, and again to auto when that short segment is done......
Well, with the speed based Lishui logic on my sine wave, I do that without any cut-off.....otherwise with the KT I have 2 dead points. Sometimes (presumably when Amps are far from the limit) this dead point is minimal or intangible, sometimes seems otherwise like a century

Hope that my lengths could be useful for someone...

 

[menvert]

Hello guys

My 24" motor on a 700c wheel at 9s lipo runs at 40kph (no load) on 10s it runs at 45kph
Note that 9s lipos is more like a 10s LiIon if you take count of the sag and the volt/discharge curves, especially if the LiIon pack is not that big
The fun is that with a light 700c bike I'm able to reach that speed by pedal alone, so in fact I'm able to get some significant assistance for the entire range of the no-load RPMs of the motor....

Hmm, interesting, so with a 36v 24" on a 700c setup on a lite-weight commuter bike with my Lifepo4 (43v charged) it should go pretty sweet.
Panurge - Can you comment on the hill-climb ability that remains? I do have some pretty steep hills (that a normal hub can climb at 10kph with some pedalling) and I have a pretty bad knee so pedall only when I have to...

I was told by Bonnie that the 48volt motor I ordered would not work well with the 36volt controller.I guess it would be the same with a 36 v motor and a 48volt controller.Maybe it is the autoshift that dont work well,and it would be ok with manual shift?

staying 36v also means I don't have to worry about an ungrade path I can just go with another 36v pack when mine dies, if the torque is still good, that'll be my plan...

 

[panurge]

we have terrible weather, here, I would like to make a small movie on a steep hill...
Anyway I've yet made my nearest test uphill (same I've yet posted made with the astrobike and the small fat with the 20" XiongDa 2 speed)....It climbs like a very torquey standard motor!!!...no load speed in low is 23+kph!!!
When I discovered that 2 speed motor the first thing in my mind has been: Wow! it is like having a 16" and a 30+" wounded motor (that shouldn't be easy or possible even to have that wide winding option with a single core motor for what I understand), in a single, slightly bigger unit.

Ah! PAS feeling is better with KT, I will post more on that if requested.

 

[docnjoj]

The KT controller (my sq.wave one at least) seems to need to cut-off the power to process inputs from the switch in any case, sometimes for milliseconds sometimes for dimes, this means that even if the switching action leads to the same gear (from manual/low to auto/low for instance) you get anyway a dead power instant...that is not the case with the Lishui, that seems to proces the imput and calculate the correct gear (accordingly to its logic) without any power interruption and to cut power only if the resulting gear is different from the current one so that it has to reverse the spin direction....

Yes Jules that is exactly the problem I have with my KT. I am awaiting the latest from Xiongda and from what you say this should solve a lot of the "hunting for a gear" problem.
Thanks
otherDoc

 

[docnjoj]

Wow! I just got the new controller (3days from China) and it is a higher serial number KT. I prepared it for use (Andersons on the battery connections and my Posilocks on the throttle connection). Should be able to try it on 20 miles today if the rain holds back. It would be neat if the auto-shift is better.
otherDoc
Specs: KT36SVPR-XD15
Serial# 140904484

 

[docnjoj]

Just got back from a 20 miler and all I can say is EUREKA, they got it. The new KT controller makes a huge difference in auto shift. It is now about 90-95% accurate in it's choice of shifts. I actually could have done the whole ride in auto and it would have shifted for the steep hill at the end and for the small hills in the middle. Temperature of the axle as about 120F at its highest with air temp at about 87 and asphalt around 96F. Motor case was about 97F degrees. So at 36 volts the motor is still quite understressed. Xiongda/KT folks really did their homework. Being a lunatic I may buy a Lishui controller just to compare, but the newest KT is simply fine for automatic shifting.
otherDoc

 

[menvert]

Just got back from a 20 miler and all I can say is EUREKA, they got it. The new KT controller makes a huge difference in auto shift. ...
otherDoc

How is the new KT with the shifting delay? I know someone said the older KT is slow to shift compared to the Lishui

On other subjects... any Aussies know a good source for rim & spokes for when I need to lace one in the next few weeks (EDIT: 700c for my setup)?

 

[spinningmagnets]

Whats a good and readily available 26-inch double-wall rim? and once that's identified, whats a good length/gauge Sapim stainless double-butted spoke for a 2-cross lacing for the XiongDa to go with it?

For 22-MPH, I think a rim brake on the back wheel is quite good enough...

 

[panurge]

Hey ODoc
Good news....Glad you're more fine with the new controller!!!.....Seems to me that It's easier for them to work close to the KT team to develop the controlling options, probably I would get one of the new KT combos soon, thanks for your report....

.....On other subjects... any Aussies know a good source for rim & spokes for when I need to lace one in the next few weeks (EDIT: 700c for my setup)?

for my 700c (ambrosio rim) I've used 270mm Sapim strong (single butted) spokes, I'm pretty conservative in wheels...and laced it 3cross....they are about 80° at the nipples that's like the limit of what I consider as the max acceptable angle.

Whats a good and readily available 26-inch double-wall rim? and once that's identified, whats a good length/gauge Sapim stainless double-butted spoke for a 2-cross lacing for the XiongDa to go with it?

For 22-MPH, I think a rim brake on the back wheel is quite good enough...

I actually use Alexrims for base bikes (DM18-36h DM24-36h for regulars or DX32-36h if you need a wide rim), and I'm pretty happy. they are relatively cheap and solid. But for 26" you really have a wide choice...
I would use sapim strong spokes (single butted 13g-14g) on any electric or heavy duty bike....I've recently relaced the wheel of a nice pedego cruiser that was laced with 12g spokes 1cross (not interlaced) with these sapims 13-14 2cross interlaced, instead....the wheel is way more stable, and light, now.....with its 100+kg rider.
The spokes holes in the XD hub are really big (I've laced the 20" fat with 2.5mm -12.5gauge equivalent- Alpina moped's spokes that have a really big head, with no problem) so At least 13g spokes at the head should be used, spoke's washers are a good idea to try, too.

P.S. to not pollute anymore this thread with my builds (although based on that motor) I've opened a thread for the dirt-road race bike with the XD motor here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63291, for the interested ones.....

 

[docnjoj]

to the LishuiHow is the new KT with the shifting delay? I know someone said the older KT is slow to shift compared

I only have the older KT to compare, but the shift speeds are a bit quicker. You do have to downshift the bike gears to be ready to pedal after the shift from low to high, but it does work accurately now, even in corners coming out.I may try to get a Lishiu to try out soon.
otherDoc
edit: The delay is about a second but with the high accuracy you can be pedaling in the right gear as the shift happens. Makes a much smoother transition than the older ones where you could get either gear and a shuttle back and forth for 5 seconds or more. The new KT is quite accurate and makes the change a pleasure. Of course you can override manually if you come on a situation that you absolutely must have the right gear, but on my first 20 mile ride with the new KT controller no manual shifting was required.

 

[crossbreak]

can someone please summarize the specs of this motor like weight, gear ratios and KV? Thanks!

made a wiki entry: http://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/EBike_Motors_Hub#2-Speed_Motors

please add useful info, thx

 

[eMax]

Just got back from a 20 miler and all I can say is EUREKA, they got it. The new KT controller makes a huge difference in auto shift. ...
otherDoc

How is the new KT with the shifting delay? I know someone said the older KT is slow to shift compared to the Lishui

On other subjects... any Aussies know a good source for rim & spokes for when I need to lace one in the next few weeks (EDIT: 700c for my setup)?

Hi mate. The prices on here seem ok.

http://www.bicyclepartswholesale.com.au/contents/en-us/d132_bike_spokes.html

EDIT. Wholesale only. Chain Reaction have a sale on some DT spokes and free shipping at the moment.

 

[docnjoj]

I completely forgot to ask this: Is there a way to set the LCD so your speedometer stays on when the throttle is closed? Mine always goes back to zero while I coast.
otherDoc

 

[d8veh]

There's a setting in the display to change the speed sensing from the hall sensors to the internal speed sensor.. Did you get a manual with it

 

[menvert]

So I got me a new commuter trek style bike with discs but the dropouts are 100mm front 135mm rear, Unfortunately the XD is just too wide in the disc version...

I would have preferred front (based on my experience of fixing a puncture with rear hub) but that seems unrealistic, as any stretch kills the shockies.

So the next Question, do I go with a 145mm Rear disc XD and stretch the alloy frame out, or buy a V-brake and 135mm XD and put them on (I do have mounting on the frame for v-Brakes), I did want full disc, but also trying to fix a puncture ain't fun in stretched dropouts.... I Need an 11t setup too, so that's, 36mm for the 7speed... pondering if it can be cut down to a 5 speed, but don't think that works with a screw on freewheel?

 

[eMax]

So I got me a new commuter trek style bike with discs but the dropouts are 100mm front 135mm rear, Unfortunately the XD is just too wide in the disc version...

I would have preferred front (based on my experience of fixing a puncture with rear hub) but that seems unrealistic, as any stretch kills the shockies.

So the next Question, do I go with a 145mm Rear disc XD and stretch the alloy frame out, or buy a V-brake and 135mm XD and put them on (I do have mounting on the frame for v-Brakes), I did want full disc, but also trying to fix a puncture ain't fun in stretched dropouts.... I Need an 11t setup too, so that's, 36mm for the 7speed... pondering if it can be cut down to a 5 speed, but don't think that works with a screw on freewheel?

My dropout is 137mm (not sure if this is stock or its slightly stretched). I had hardly any problems fitting it, just shifted around a few of the nuts they supplied and it was an easy fit.

 

[menvert]

My dropout is 137mm (not sure if this is stock or its slightly stretched). I had hardly any problems fitting it, just shifted around a few of the nuts they supplied and it was an easy fit.

The Motor without disc mount is a 135mm one with 7-8 speed freewhweel space. If you want disc mount you should go to 146mm for 7-8 speed or get a 137mm motor extending the threads on the drive side, perfect for old 5speed freewheels.

Yeah I think I'll be wanting to go the disc version
eMax do you remember if yours is the 145mm version of motor? and is that a 6 speed freewheel? (just there seems to be a more narrow disc version suitable for 5 speed or something)

 

[eMax]

Yeah I think I'll be wanting to go the disc version
eMax do you remember if yours is the 145mm version of motor? and is that a 6 speed freewheel? (just there seems to be a more narrow disc version suitable for 5 speed or something)

Yes its the 145mm disk version, however, I removed on of the nuts on the casette side (5mm width) and fits well. There is one 5mm nut on the disc side. Of course the wheel was built to this fitting and if I were you I would take the frame and motor to a decent wheel builder in Brisbane to build as it may need to be offset (mine is ever so slightly).

Anyway you can see what i'm talking about in some of my pictures here:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9HqVnu9yiRYdy1aVFprSHNlTGM&usp=sharing

Also pictures of display, throttle and gear selector switch for those who have not seen.

 

[docnjoj]

There's a setting in the display to change the speed sensing from the hall sensors to the internal speed sensor.. Did you get a manual with it

Yeah and I read it twice. Prolly forgot right as I read it. Thanks.
otherDoc
edit: Just reread the manual (long version) and I don't find a reference to internal sensor. P2 does seem like the closest with it's funny way of stating that rotation measurement depends on a 1-6 will either make the speed show or not. Gotta experiment.

 

[menvert]

Yes its the 145mm disk version, however, I removed on of the nuts on the casette side (5mm width) and fits well. There is one 5mm nut on the disc side. Of course the wheel was built to this fitting and if I were you I would take the frame and motor to a decent wheel builder in Brisbane to build as it may need to be offset (mine is ever so slightly).

Anyway you can see what i'm talking about in some of my pictures here:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9HqVnu9yiRYdy1aVFprSHNlTGM&usp=sharing

Also pictures of display, throttle and gear selector switch for those who have not seen.

Thanks heaps, nice and close on the freewheel there
I just ordered a 145mm kit

 

[menvert]

EDIT. Wholesale only. Chain Reaction have a sale on some DT spokes and free shipping at the moment.

Good call eMax on http://www.chainreactioncycles.com I got me;
- Mavic A119 700c and some Rim tape
From http://www.thorusa.com/accessories/product10.htm got; (ended up being $56.50 AUD)
-Sapim "Strong" single butted spokes (13G/14G)
-Sapim Polyax Brass nipples -
I specced for 2x lacing so it should be 81.3 degree rim angle according to http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc.html and the polyax allow 9 degree radial angle and still sit solid, so it should be quite strong.
All up including spoke tool, it was about $105 AUD for the wheel components, much cheaper (and better quality) than the extra $170 to order the XD laced.

So I think I have everything ordered, including a 24" XD (2 weeks till it is shipped apparently), so now I wait... lets hope I got the measurements right...

 

[panurge]

I'm crying 'cause my last build with the dirt-jump frame and the XD 24" on 700c as been stolen today.....My miss, It was at 5 meters from me, I was talking with a friend when a Maghreb man, like a snake coming from nowhere, picked the bike and goes fast.....my running for an half km and more looking it more and more far has been like loosing 10 years of my life....
He don't even knows what has in his hands.....hope that the small Lipo pack will do its job tonight :x .....70% of the components was rare or unique, don't know what could He do with that bike....must go to the other part of the world, and have to be careful too....ES has Agents everywhere...

Hope that your 700c bike will get more chance.....

 

[eMax]

Good call eMax on http://www.chainreactioncycles.com I got me;
- Mavic A119 700c and some Rim tape
From http://www.thorusa.com/accessories/product10.htm got; (ended up being $56.50 AUD)
-Sapim "Strong" single butted spokes (13G/14G)
-Sapim Polyax Brass nipples -
I specced for 2x lacing so it should be 81.3 degree rim angle according to http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc.html and the polyax allow 9 degree radial angle and still sit solid, so it should be quite strong.
All up including spoke tool, it was about $105 AUD for the wheel components, much cheaper (and better quality) than the extra $170 to order the XD laced.

So I think I have everything ordered, including a 24" XD (2 weeks till it is shipped apparently), so now I wait... lets hope I got the measurements right...

Nice one mate. Sounds like its going to be a great wheel build.Let us know how it turns out! Is 24" referring to the motor winding? What is available now been a while since i've spoken to Xiongda.

 

[menvert]

Nice one mate. Sounds like its going to be a great wheel build.Let us know how it turns out! Is 24" referring to the motor winding? What is available now been a while since i've spoken to Xiongda.

I sure hope so, will be nice to move on from my 30+kg workhorse
Yup 24" windings, though Yona seemed reluctant to give me those windings; knowing I intended to put it in a 700c wheel, but she agreed in the end, TBH me and my bike will be well under 80kg so I don't think it'll be strained at all.
I am not sure what is available in terms of any standard windings, I just asked for what I wanted (she calls it 250w 36v 24" @ 25kph max speed).

What's available in general seems to be 36v or 48v (though I think they'd do a 24v if asked as it is listed in alibaba specs);
With Newer KT controller, I asked about the Lishui and she said they don't really do them any more, they have the more expensive LCD anyway. Maybe if I insisted, but looks like they are focusing KT only now.

135mm or 145.6mm dropout rear or 100mm 110mm dropout front (wider for the disc versions) no mention of the shortened disc version I saw someone get on here (suited for a 5 speed) when I asked about thinner options.

Oh I also got it shipped with 7SP 11t Freewheel and brake switches (not sure on type, but I said it is for my existing Disc brakes), makes me wonder what other goodies they can supply...

 

[menvert]

I'm crying 'cause my last build with the dirt-jump frame and the XD 24" on 700c as been stolen today.....My miss, It was at 5 meters from me, I was talking with a friend when a Maghreb man, like a snake coming from nowhere, picked the bike and goes fast.....my running for an half km and more looking it more and more far has been like loosing 10 years of my life....
He don't even knows what has in his hands.....hope that the small Lipo pack will do its job tonight :x .....70% of the components was rare or unique, don't know what could He do with that bike....must go to the other part of the world, and have to be careful too....ES has Agents everywhere...

Hope that your 700c bike will get more chance.....

That's very sad news, sorry for your loss. I have a cage at work locked by proximity cards, but I might chain it up too. so hard to lose after the lengths we go to to make these custom bikes...