2006 Giant Trance - Electric

[wildnrg]

This is my first go at building an electric bike. I had the choice of converting my wife's $300 Raleigh "MTB" that weighs almost 20kg, has dodgey caliper brakes and front suspension or my 2006 Giant Trance with 4" dual suspension, and decent disc brakes. From what I've been reading making a dually electric was going to be a challenge.



I choose the Cyclone 500 watt 3 chain ring kit with 24V 10AH LiFePO4, it took 7 days to arriving in Australia from Taiwan. There were no instructions in the box, and the online pictures showed nothing about having to change my bottom bracket. The 60-90min installation took me a whole day.

I decided to wrap my frame with an old bike tube to protect the bike from the mount and to give it more to grip onto. After mounting the motor to the bottom of the frame I found that when the front shocks hit a bump the wheel would hit the motor. So I tried mounting inside the triangle. This seems to look better and protect the motor from damage.



After changing my ISIS bottom bracket and cranks for the supplied bottom bracket I found that the chain alignment an issue, so after trial and error I used to washers between the motor and the mount, and to spaces between the frame and the bottom bracket gave me the best alignment.

The next issue was the front derailleur, I couldn't change from then small chain ring to the large one because the derailleur would hit the chain from the motor.


Originally the Trance is a 27 speed cross country MTB, after putting the Cyclone chain ring on I lost 9 speed, to use the larger chain ring I had to ditch the front derailleur , so now I've got 9 speed. Using the small front chain ring I could only do 30kph max, now with the large chain ring, I got 42kph

Specs
2006 Giant Trance
Rockshox Recon Team front shocks dual air with remote lockout
Fox Float R rear air shocks
Raceface carbon fiber handlebar
SRAM X0 shifters and rear derailleur
SRAM 11-32T rear cassette
Hayes Mag XC hydraulic disc brakes
Mavic Crossmax SL UST tubeless rims 26x1.50 Specialize Nimbus Armadillo
Headline HEV06701G 500w motor
Garmin Edge 305 and Cycle Analyst
Niterider Flight HID Li-Ion
2 x 24V LiFePO4 10AH 10C batteries
Top speed (without pedalling): 45km/h flat, 61km/h down and 25km/h up 2% incline
50km range
Avg 9w per km with pedalling

 

[lesspedal]

Looks nice,, 8)

 

[kentlim26]

if you are using the 900watts or 1200watts kit, it is better to shift motor downwards. there are two important nuts need to be used (center) that will will position the motor steady in correct position without fail. in the earlier place i also ignore the two nuts required to be screw onto frame( position for water bottle holder) if you are shifting ON top of your frame you need to build nuts holes. the aligment will be accurate won't run away, even if is a bit out. the sound from the chain still go wonderful. http://www.flickr.com/photos/kentlim26. i saw your photo i have to inform you, the 2nuts has been there got a very important reason for it to be there.

the 500watts kit is fun too. I ever run 36v sla a batteries, no problem. But do not run 48v on a 500watts, it will kill the internal controller. I run my 500watts 36v sla batteries on a single piece crank. i get more fun fun on a 900watts becasue of the troque is so much obvious different. 500watts is build for super range and best ideal weight for battery on a ebike. my 48v 20hr (14.5kg) is heavy luckily it is still a acceptable weight. if is over 16kg on a rear bike. it wobbles so much i dare not to ebike out , wwu... so dangerous.

if you running 24t crank x rear wheel 28t the top speed is 30km/h same goes to the 900watts. that is the max speed for spinning. if you run 44t x other gearing 22, 18, etc all of them have different top speed. Choose either 22t,18t,16t they are best choice x crank 44t. 24t is bit too soft to pedal. go 44t no problem. 24t crank x 28t is used for real steep hills.


best regards
kentlim

 

[wildnrg]

I decided to go for the 500w motor because the "power to weight" ratio seem to be the best at 500w (2.2kg motor) vs 650w (4kg motor). With the gearing in my bike, the significantly greater torque offered by the 650w didn't justify almost doubling the weigh of the motor.

Limiting factor I have is my rear rack is rated to a max of 9kg, with my 24V 10AH batteries its around 4kg, I'm building this bike to ride to work (35-40km) so I'd probably need 20AH which would max out the weight limit on my rear rack.

I suppose the cool thing about my bike is that 13kg for a dual suspension bike is reasonably lite, and with the electric kit my bike still weighs less than 20kg. The Mavic Crossmax SL UST tubeless are awesome wheels, I remember getting them a couple of years ago and going for a ride, with half the rotating mass as the old wheels the bike was easier to accelerate.

 

[wildnrg]

Test ride

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/13086694

 

[kentlim26]

the 650watts ~1200watts motor has the same weight and size. the older version is 4kg. i had compare two of them same size and same weight 500watts or the 1200watts motor. the 360watts moter is slightly 5mm shorter in length, speed 30km/h ~ 40km/h.

kentlim26

 

[wildnrg]

Fitted road tires on my bike and clocked 60.6km/h down a small hill, gained 5km/h on the flats with road tires.

 

[Leith Flyer]

Hi. Nice build on the Giant.
Ive got the 500w cyclone on my hardtail and looking to get some lifepo for it soon..
I started out with 2 12v17ah SLA,s and didnt get 2 miles!!
Thanks for posting your gps chart as it gives me more of an idea what battery size to go for. 20ah..I think..
Andalucia lovely place for ebiking, wish i was there..Scotland getting colder & greyer .
Enjoy..

 

[wildnrg]

Rode to work today for the first time on my ebike.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/14225826

25.04km used 6.5AH of my 24V 10AH battery pack. Avg 6kwh/km. I pedalled all the way and made an effort to only use 100-250W assistance unless going up a big hill, then the watt meter was showing 600W+

I drafted some cyclists on road bikes on the cycle path for about 5km, its nice doing 30km/h with little pedalling and only drawing 150W of power

Burnt 888 Calories, and used 158W of electricity. Not bad considering I would have used 3 litres of petrol driving to work and only arrived 20 mins earlier.

 

[wildnrg]

Rebuilt my ebike setup today.
Put a kick stand on my bike as its not doing any XC MTBing its safe to have a kick stand on it now


Here's my Cycle Analyst and Garmin 305. When I bought the CA, it came with a very short lead for sensing the battery and controller, ebike.ca sent me out a full length cable so I did some soldering work remounted the cA.


I removed the bottom bracket and took out the really long Cyclone spindle and put a 127.5mm spindle. I found I was getting foot pains with the extra long spindle that had my left foot too far left by about 1-2 inches, which also cause my pedal to hit the ground on some left hand turns with very little bike lean.


I also removed the small 22T front chain ring, as with the motor I don't need to go down to granny gear. The magnet on the pedal is for the cadence sensor of the Garmin, shows me how many RPM I am pedaling, (and if I'm not pedaling).

I also moved the motor up a bit and drilled an extra hole in the mount so that the grub screws lined up with the water bottle mounts, so now rather than the grub screws pressing against the tube, they screw into the water bottle mounts which ensures motor alignment.

The rear gear shifters have been changed to twist shifters and put on the left hand side, and I've replaced the twist throttle with a thumb throttle.

 

[biohazardman]

Nice build I thought about doing something similar motor wise with my Trance but the shape of the frame tubing was more triangular than round, so I was not sure it would work well, so I did a hub motor. Yours seems to be doing well though. Keep us updated on how things hold up in that area and in general so we can make good decisions when we mod.

 

[wildnrg]

Nice build I thought about doing something similar motor wise with my Trance but the shape of the frame tubing was more triangular than round, so I was not sure it would work well, so I did a hub motor. Yours seems to be doing well though. Keep us updated on how things hold up in that area and in general so we can make good decisions when we mod.

Yeah the tubing is kinda triangle, but it doesn't matter, the clamps do a good job, and the grub screws also keep the mount firm. I used old bike tubes around the frame to protect the frame from damage by the mount, a positive side effect is that the rubber tube also allows the mount to grip alot better to the frame.

The only complaint have with my setup this this I've gone from a 27speed to only 9 speed, which is ok I guess as I doubt with a motor I'd ever need to go down to the low front gears. The second issue is with a 25AH battery pack on the rear rack, the bike feels very top heavy and unstable when I stand up. The only positive thing about having all that extra weight there is I can apply alot more force on the rear brakes without the rear wheel locking up, and I can apply more force on the front brakes without going over that handlebars. I'd love to take my bike on some XC trails again but I don't think its a great idea with all the weight so high up.

I've done 250km+ on my ebike, so far so good. Averaging 10wh per km with only a little pedaling.

 

[biohazardman]

Good to hear that the motor clamps on tight. I know what you mean about the loss of so many gears but you really don't need them as you have said. I thought the same when I removed my front derailleur so I could use the shift levers as a throttle but never missed the rest of the gears. Built my first bike with the batts up high, only 36v 10ah though so 12lbs, it was OK but a bit dicey when nearly stalled and standing up like one does on very steep hills. I was able to move the batteries down, it was a hardtail, and it made a big difference. They make racks that attach to the rear triangle of the suspension bikes that would allow you to lower your weight in the rear if you use paniers or similar. You would probly need to mod the bracket for the larger axle but that should not be overly difficult. I thought about it for quite some time but finally went with a split pack with part of the batts <5lbs up on the back like yours the rest will be where your motor is. Good luck with your mod.

http://www.oldmanmountain.com/Pages/RackPages/RearRacks.html

http://cbebikes.com/product/axiom-odyssee-rear-suspension-rack-36826-1.htm

My build on the same platform.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=235&start=390

 

[competitions]

Hi all from Tasmania, Australia.


Great projects, congratulations to all. Have become aware of this e-bike forum area thanks to AussieJester's (Hi KiM) postings over at AEVA.

I have a Giant Boulder SE from a few years ago and have now got a whet appetite to perhaps install a kit.

From what I've read so far, although I'd love to do a RC (love the 'whine') those things seem to put out, there doesn't appear to be a "supposed one kit fits all" (c'mon Matt!) like the Cyclone chain ring kit and Elation kits *appear* to be.

So... I guess I'll have a few questions from time to time... first one being that when I look at the Cyclone kit install on this thread I see the motor looks very similiar to the elation one ( http://www.elationebikes.com.au/videos_and_pictures.htm ). Anyone have any comments on the pros and cons of the Cyclone vs the elation?

 

[wildnrg]

Hi all from Tasmania, Australia.


Great projects, congratulations to all. Have become aware of this e-bike forum area thanks to AussieJester's (Hi KiM) postings over at AEVA.

I have a Giant Boulder SE from a few years ago and have now got a whet appetite to perhaps install a kit.

From what I've read so far, although I'd love to do a RC (love the 'whine') those things seem to put out, there doesn't appear to be a "supposed one kit fits all" (c'mon Matt!) like the Cyclone chain ring kit and Elation kits *appear* to be.

So... I guess I'll have a few questions from time to time... first one being that when I look at the Cyclone kit install on this thread I see the motor looks very similiar to the elation one ( http://www.elationebikes.com.au/videos_and_pictures.htm ). Anyone have any comments on the pros and cons of the Cyclone vs the elation?

The motor and throttle from the cyclone 3 chainring and elation kits are exactly the same.

Not that I've seen the elation kit in real life, but as a Cyclone owner, I think from the pictures the elation kit has 4 chainrings and the Cyclone has 3. However, I've taken the front derailuer off my bike and also the small chain ring, so I'm only using 1 chainring to drive the back gears and 1 chainring that's driven by the motor. The reason for this is because having the motor mounted high, the motor chain would interfere with the front derailluer. The benefit of having my motor mounted there is that it doesn't get hit by the front wheel when the suspension compresses.

The elation motor mount looks better than the cyclone, it seems to be more "nicer" with the "U" clamps and the integrated battery mount. However, I can't fit the battery in the triangle anyway, and the cyclone kit has grub screws on the mount that I've got screwed into my water bottle mounts for extra stability.

I was going to by the elation kit, however, when I contacted them they said they don't recommend their kit for my bike. However, after installing the cyclone kit, I think that they were wrong, both cyclone and elation kits work the same way.

If I had to compare both kits side by side, I'd say that if elation got a score of 100%, cyclone would score 90%

The main reason I'd buy a cyclone again tho is that the cyclone kit is about 60% of the price of the elation kit. The main difference between the kits are the motor mount, chain ring, cranks are a more refined on the elation kit, but compare $900 AUD for cyclone kit with 10Ah LIFePo4 10C cells to ~$1500 AUD for elation, I'm not willing to spend the extra $600.

 

[competitions]

Thank you wildnrg for the reply.

My second lot of questions - related to the cyclone website where they mention 3 chainwheel and 1 chainwheel kits.

Am I right to assume the chainwheel is the wheel near the centre of the bike where the chain fits? (Which on my bike I can currently select via my left hand gear selector?)

If my understanding of what the chainwheel is correct,

- why does it need replacing?
- are all 3 still selectable via the gear selector after conversion?

[edit - US$243.00 for shipping and handling!!! That's almost another 50% on top of the kit price]

 

[wildnrg]

Thank you wildnrg for the reply.

My second lot of questions - related to the cyclone website where they mention 3 chainwheel and 1 chainwheel kits.

Am I right to assume the chainwheel is the wheel near the centre of the bike where the chain fits? (Which on my bike I can currently select via my left hand gear selector?)

If my understanding of what the chainwheel is correct,

- why does it need replacing?
- are all 3 still selectable via the gear selector after conversion?

[edit - US$243.00 for shipping and handling!!! That's almost another 50% on top of the kit price]

The 3 chainwheel kit is what you want, they actually mean 3 chain ring which is the cogs the pedal connects to.

The reason why you need to replace your current chainrings is their one and elations ones have a freewheel that allows the motor spin the chainrings and your pedals not to have to rotate, but the one way bearing allows you at anytime to start pedaling. There is also a freewheel on the motor that allows u to pedal while the motor isn't engaged.

Only 2 are selectable after conversion, unless you mount the motor high like me, which in that case the motor driven chain would foul against the derailleur. I believe the elation kit has 4 chain rings not 3, so all three would be selectable.

However, from my experience, where I've removed the front derailleur and only have 2 chain rings, one for driving the rear gears and one that the motor drives, there is no need for the small front gears. The only time you would have used the lowest is a steep climb, and the biggest, for going down hill, now with the motor, u can drive the biggest because u have a motor assisting for the climbs. my 500w has no probs climbing hills @20km/h without my help in 1st or 2nd gear on the big chain ring.

Yes postage is expensive, but they do send via EMS express air mail, and the box with the motor and battery is pretty heavy.

 

[lesspedal]

Hi all from Tasmania, Australia.


Great projects, congratulations to all. Have become aware of this e-bike forum area thanks to AussieJester's (Hi KiM) postings over at AEVA.

I have a Giant Boulder SE from a few years ago and have now got a whet appetite to perhaps install a kit.

From what I've read so far, although I'd love to do a RC (love the 'whine') those things seem to put out, there doesn't appear to be a "supposed one kit fits all" (c'mon Matt!) like the Cyclone chain ring kit and Elation kits *appear* to be.

So... I guess I'll have a few questions from time to time... first one being that when I look at the Cyclone kit install on this thread I see the motor looks very similiar to the elation one ( http://www.elationebikes.com.au/videos_and_pictures.htm ). Anyone have any comments on the pros and cons of the Cyclone vs the elation?

See reviews and testing.elation 200w kit [ australia], desvejk, He had a cyclone and upgraded to elation.
Trev.

 

[wildnrg]

I've just upgraded my 500w to 650w (cos I could, no probs with the 500w).

The issue I found with the upgrade was finding a place to mount the motor controller, as the 500w had one built it.

The weight of the 650w didn't seem any different from the 500w in my hands, didn't weigh them to compare tho.

The physical size are the same, and I was able to mount it to my bike with the 500w mount. The 650w motor came with a ring that you can tighten with a screw driver, I assume it goes around the motor, but not sure why.

Torque wise, the 650w is amazing, on paper its double the torque for only extra 150W power consumption, it certainly feels like it. The 650W doesn't seem to struggle when I'm in a gear that's too high, in fact I snapped the chain. I have to remember to back off the throttle and ease it on when changing gears (like a motorbike).

Front wheel lifts off the ground taking off whilst seated, its dark here now, will try a wheelie on the weekend

 

[competitions]

How long usually from order to delivery?

 

[wildnrg]

How long usually from order to delivery?

I bought my 650W kit from extreme cybershop in Perth, it took about a week. Cost a bit more to buy than direct from Taiwan, but I have the piece of mind that I can speak to someone in Australia to get help and its still cheaper than most other places.