24 Mosfet Controller XJC8b116 microchip Information Thread

Hey Everyone,

I just recieve my 2 kits yesterday,

-they came with 200v 470uf Rubycon capasitors 105 degrees
-i was very surprised to see that the controller also came from factory with the tiny 250v ceramic (caps) (the red ones on the pcb)
-I've very impresed with the quality/layout of this new controller
-the bus bar for the mosfets is well designed, the bus bar is in sort of an L shape, the bottom of the L portion is the part that makes contact with the casing to transfer the heat,
-Overall this controller Has Tons of room inside to fit everything .. i can probably go as far as easily adding 200v 1000 uf capasitors lol...

I will take some photos on the weekend when i have some time, i'm awaiting my mosfets which i hope should arrive by the end of the week or earily next week.

thanks
-steveo
 
steveo said:
-they came with 200v 470uf Rubycon capasitors 105 degrees
Are these the caps you have now?
Rubycon (KXW) 200V-470uf 18X40 (1270ma Ripple - 105°C 2000 hours)

I also found this spec (slightly better cap) ...
Rubycon (TXW) 200V-470uf 18X40 (1770ma Ripple - 105°C 10000 hours)

Just curious which caps you have.
Both the KXW and TXW series are recommended for switching power supply.

Rubycon Caps List
 
Knuckles said:
steveo said:
-they came with 200v 470uf Rubycon capasitors 105 degrees
Are these the caps you have now?
Rubycon (KXW) 200V-470uf 18X40 (1270ma Ripple - 105°C 2000 hours)

I also found this spec (slightly better cap) ...
Rubycon (TXW) 200V-470uf 18X40 (1770ma Ripple - 105°C 10000 hours)

Just curious which caps you have.
Both the KXW and TXW series are recommended for switching power supply.

Rubycon Caps List

Hey Knuckles,

They the model of caps it comes with are MXR

-steveo
 
Knuckles said:
New 24-Fet Voltage Regulator Circuit

The new 24-fet controller board has a nicely improved voltage regulator circuit that appears superior to the VR circuit on the older 18-fet XieChang board.

Looking at the new VR circuit it is clear that it is a simple "buck" step down converter tailored to the specific requirements of the controller board 5 volt and 15 volt circuitry. It should be very efficient (generating very little waste heat) at dropping the battery voltage from 100V (max) down to the input of the 15V linear regulator. The voltage “window” for safe controller operation should be very large easily accepting any battery from 24 to 72 volts with no modifications needed.

This is my best guess (as of today) of the functional parts of the new switching regulator circuit.

View attachment 2 Higher res pic

How I Think It Works

I don’t physically have this board (yet) so I am guessing how the VR circuit might work (based on the pics from Keywin). Comments and/or corrections are welcome of course.

BTW, I like to call the “thin red wire” that connects the VR circuit to the battery (+) the “ignition wire” as it is meant to be used with a key switch to turn the controller on and off. Also, there is space for a single “power resistor” (R115) that may well allow for voltages in excess of 100V max. For now, let’s assume R115 is zero ohms (a piece of wire) when analyzing the VR circuit. I’ll try guessing at values for R115 later on.

FYI, the “7550-1” is a 5V linear regulator and the “78L15” is a 15V linear regulator with a rated max input voltage of 30V. The “100V diode” is a SS110 (100V) schottky diode that (I believe) conducts current from GND during the “buck” switching cycles. I think that Q13 is the “buck” switch (I’m guessing it’s a mosfet) and that Q17 and Q18 are transistors that create a hysteresis feed back loop that controls Q13 switching frequency and keeps the input to the 15V regulator below the 30V max value. Also, my experience with 12-fet controllers tells me that the minimum current to the 15V regulator is about 30ma (motor, halls and throttle not connected) AND maybe 70ma (everything hooked up with motor cruising under load at 50% wide open throttle). The 15V bus powers the gate drivers (24 mosfets) and the 5V bus powers the “116” chip and the throttle/motor hall sensors.

I am guessing that this “buck” converter is switching at a very high but varying harmonic frequency depending on the loads and voltages applied to the circuit. Again, I am just guessing here. So let’s slow down time into microseconds and try to see what’s going on.

Idea 1: Ignition off. All voltages and currents in the circuit are ZERO. Q13 (switch) is OPEN. Transistors Q17 and Q18 are open (not conducting any current).

Idea 2: Ignition just turned on (say 100V bat). Cap C2 starts to charge up and the voltage increases. R117(15k) and R118(3.1k) start to conduct (this is a voltage divider). At 100V bat this divider (midpoint) cannot exceed 17V. The current thru this divider cannot exceed 5.5ma.

Idea 3: The divider is connected to the base of Q17. Q17 is placed between 2 resistors (R119 and R120, both 2.1k). Before Q17 starts to conduct, the voltage across it is full bat voltage 100V.

Idea 4: As the base voltage of Q17 begins to rise, Q17 starts to conduct. AND this circuit “pulls down” the gate voltage of Q13 (and current starts to conduct thru R116 (1.2k)). Q13 is now CLOSED and current runs to the “buck” inductor. The voltage across the inductor “jumps” from zero to 100V and current starts flowing thru the inductor and the inductor magnetic field grows (storing energy).

Idea 5: The more Q17 conducts, the lower the voltage drop across it. If Q17 was completely closed the voltage across it would be close to zero. Now we would have three resistors in series (R116, R119 and R120). But Q17 emitter voltage would be about 39V way above the base voltage max of 17V (Q17 would stop conducting). A-Ha! But we do have (a very small) cap C129 in series with R121. This provides some hysteresis causing a momentary voltage boost above 17V. This is a funky circuit. :lol:

Idea 6: As the voltage to the 15V regulator climbs to 30V (max allowable), ANOTHER voltage divider (R124-3.3k and R123-2.2k) is conducting. Eventually the voltage (in) to the 15V regulator climbs to maybe 30V (max allowable). When this happens (I guess) the Zener diode (ZD1) starts to conduct. AND this causes the base of Q18 to rise thus causing Q18 to conduct. When Q18 conducts the base of Q17 plummets to zero volts. And this OPENS switch Q13.

Idea 7: Well the inductor is “energized” but Q13 is open so the voltage before the inductor MUST drop BELOW zero volts as it “pumps” current (releases energy) into the 30V cap that feeds the 15V regulator. The schottky diode completes the circuit and conducts current from ground to the inductor coil.

Idea 8: Eventually the voltage to the 15V regulator drops under the 30V (max allowable), and Zener diode (ZD1) stops conducting. The base of Q18 goes to zero and the Q17 - Q19 “dance” starts up again (charging) the inductor and maintaining the 30V “bus” to the 15V regulator.

Cool. 8)

I agree with your analysis. Here I am posting my buck step-down power supply, which should be very similar to XieChang's design. This buck step-down design proved itself to be very reliable in past 2 years' mass production.
 

Attachments

  • analysis.jpg
    analysis.jpg
    29.2 KB · Views: 4,939
Actually there was a labeling mistake in my previous circuit diagram.
The U1 "KSA1275" actually should be 2SA1275Y which is the one I use most in production.
KSA1220Y can also be used for U1 if you can't find 2SA1275Y
 
wshi,

Welcome to Endless-Sphere and thank you for the input on the buck circuit.
Do you ride an e-bike? Are you and EE at a manufacturer?

just curious. :D

thanks again!

-Knuckles
 
amberwolf said:
Well, they wouldn't be the first counterfeit parts ever found, if that's what they are. ;)

WHAT?????

Counterfeit parts in a controller from China :shock:

I cant believe it :)

Lets get serious - if there are any parts in there that AREN'T counterfeit I will be surprised. Even good ol' Kenny tried to slip us the phony 4110's a few months back - and they were the worst excuse for a counterfeit you could ask for. When a cap is marked by nothing but heat shrink it is very easy to fake.

Counterfeit isn't necessarily bad though - I prefer to think of it as "affordable".

-methods
 
Hey,

you guys really think there fakes? ... they are identical to what knuckles shows in that pdf!

i'm almost finished building the controller .. i will post pic tommorw!

-steveo
 
Knuckles said:
wshi,

Welcome to Endless-Sphere and thank you for the input on the buck circuit.
Do you ride an e-bike? Are you and EE at a manufacturer?

just curious. :D

thanks again!

-Knuckles
Knuckles,

My pleasure! You are right I am a EE at manufacture. I started e-bike controller project from scratch 3 years ago, design and build from bottom to top, burning a lot of FETs :)
Now I am living in Canada, got my dream job as computer software engineer. I am still partnered with motor controller manufacture though. So daytime I code for computer company and night time I work for my own company, awesome!

^^
 
steveo said:
Hey,

you guys really think there fakes? ... they are identical to what knuckles shows in that pdf!

The wrappers probably are identical :D
Just teasing you though - there really is no easy way to tell.
If they came direct from China the likelihood is much greater than if they had come from Digikey.

On the other hand - maybe they came from the back door of the best low ESR capacitor manufacturer in China! :p

who knows....

-methods
 
Knuckles said:
steveo said:
caps it comes with are MXR
Well I'm Stumped.
The Rubycon MXR Series are discontinued
and do not come in 18mm x 40mm size at 200v 470uf. :roll:
(I love a good mystery!) :wink:

There are plenty of fake Rubycon in Chinese market (my gust feeling tell me >90% market share). Even the real Rubycon have their low temperature issue, so after all my choice is Chemi-con.
 
wshi said:
There are plenty of fake Rubycon in Chinese market (my gust feeling tell me >90% market share). Even the real Rubycon have their low temperature issue, so after all my choice is Chemi-con.
wshi,

Toa Chie!

Excuse my rudeness. Are you of Chinese ancestry? Do you speak Mandarin?
Your English is excellent and I am so pleased you have joined our forum.

I have a very good Chinese friend in Hong Kong (Shenzhen) ... Keywin Ge (Ge Shijie).
Keywin is a very good friend (he is EE also) and very much important to us on Endless-Sphere. My first Post.
If you speak Mandarin or other dialect I do so wish that I may invoke a dialogue between you and my good friend Keywin.

Bu xie,
-Knuckles

PS ... Keywin and I ALWAYS look out for fake parts. It is a very serious issue.
 
Knuckles said:
wshi said:
There are plenty of fake Rubycon in Chinese market (my gust feeling tell me >90% market share). Even the real Rubycon have their low temperature issue, so after all my choice is Chemi-con.
wshi,

Toa Chie!

Excuse my rudeness. Are you of Chinese ancestry? Do you speak Mandarin?
Your English is excellent and I am so pleased you have joined our forum.

I have a very good Chinese friend in Hong Kong (Shenzhen) ... Keywin Ge (Ge Shijie).
Keywin is a very good friend (he is EE also) and very much important to us on Endless-Sphere. My first Post.
If you speak Mandarin or other dialect I do so wish that I may invoke a dialogue between you and my good friend Keywin.

Bu xie,
-Knuckles

PS ... Keywin and I ALWAYS look out for fake parts. It is a very serious issue.

Knuckles,

Good guess and thanks :)
I come from Beijing, China and I speak Mandarin. It would be my pleasure to talk to you and your friend.

-wshi
 
wshi,

I send you and Keywin a PM

Steveo,

Keywin says cap is not fake. It is real Rubycon.
Not for international market ... (you have good caps ... no worries).


:)
 
Thanks knuckles for clarifying this .. you guys had me going here ...lol

-steveo
 
Hey Everyone,

I am please to give everyone a succesfull bench testing update, with alot of photos of the new controller & video, I've spent about 8 hrs in 2 days to fully complete this controller properly, its virtually 90% finished i'd say, with a few mods i still need to get done ...

Lets start with some photos showing my good work 8)

15czrko.jpg

s4ouax.jpg

wjw8lx.jpg

15cn40x.jpg

25q5890.jpg

200d9n9.jpg

2cpxbnq.jpg

14doahz.jpg

262v8xz.jpg


video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjX1e3NiWvo

-steveo
 
Hello Steveo,
I am curious about how you go about changing a blown Mosfet on that setup? This is not a critical question, just wondering the thought process that went into the design.
kenkad
 
Good job Steveo.
I know just how long it takes to assemble a new controller (learning every lesson the hard way) along the way.
Looks like the design has come along nicely since the slow start 18 fets - those bastards were flawed!

Question becomes - how much work (to your exacting specification) can you get Keywin to do in China?

You probably know now after building that - assembling here by hand blows any chance of a profit - or even breaking even.
I was successful once in having Kenny do "most of the work" on a batch of 18 fets but I still ended up having to do hours of work on this end. The risk becomes very high once the quantity goes up too - if something is forgotten - on 50 controllers - there is nobody but you to make the corrections :|

-methods
 
methods said:
Good job Steveo.
I know just how long it takes to assemble a new controller (learning every lesson the hard way) along the way.
Looks like the design has come along nicely since the slow start 18 fets - those bastards were flawed!

Question becomes - how much work (to your exacting specification) can you get Keywin to do in China?

You probably know now after building that - assembling here by hand blows any chance of a profit - or even breaking even.
I was successful once in having Kenny do "most of the work" on a batch of 18 fets but I still ended up having to do hours of work on this end. The risk becomes very high once the quantity goes up too - if something is forgotten - on 50 controllers - there is nobody but you to make the corrections :|

-methods

Hey methods,

i will discuss with keywin exactly what would need to be done if these come into production, they are alot of work, and alot of solder LOL

Does anyone know where i'm suppose to install the LVC pot, if you look at my earlier photos i posted, on the top right corner there is a adjustable pot that was included .. i have no idea where it goes though ... i have to ask keywin.. any ideas?


-steveo
 
Probably R12
It is documented in many threads.

If you find R12 and one end goes to ground and the other end goes to the controller. . . . .

-methods

EDIT: But wait - hold the phone - why would you want to install a pot to adjust LVC? Is this batch not programmable? I would not install the pot. I would install a new resistor to set regen voltage up to XX volts and adjust LVC in the software.

WARNING: If the controller was set up to run 72V and you run 140V you will be applying near DOUBLE the voltage on the A/D pin of the ucontroller. This very well might let the magic smoke out. That was the real reason for changing R12 on my controllers - not for regen. You need to reverse engineer the R10 R11 R12 before running that controller again.
 
methods said:
Probably R12
It is documented in many threads.

If you find R12 and one end goes to ground and the other end goes to the controller. . . . .

-methods

EDIT: But wait - hold the phone - why would you want to install a pot to adjust LVC? Is this batch not programmable? I would not install the pot. I would install a new resistor to set regen voltage up to XX volts and adjust LVC in the software.

WARNING: If the controller was set up to run 72V and you run 140V you will be applying near DOUBLE the voltage on the A/D pin of the ucontroller. This very well might let the magic smoke out. That was the real reason for changing R12 on my controllers - not for regen. You need to reverse engineer the R10 R11 R12 before running that controller again.

Hey Methods,

I did confirm the adjustable pot goes in parrallel with the r12 resistor to adjust the lvc as per keywin. I have a feeling the LVC in the software isn't anywhere over the 100v mark, probably similar to the 18 mosfet software, I've request the software from keywin, and asked about that LVC pot issue, I haven't installed it at this time, worst case scenario, I could get a modded cycle analyst to cutout the battery, I really would like the big display version :D

-steveo
 
Hello steveo,

I am just wondering did you ever do a extreme condition test for the controller? As far as I know most major e-bike manufactures require their controller to pass stall start test, which is a test they deliberately welding a BLDC on the testing base so it can’t spin, then connect the controller and turn thrust to max, the controller should withhold 8~10 seconds over circuit without smoke or blow up. The test is usually repeated 3 times with 5 minutes gap. I heard last week while one of other potential supplier doing stall test with their 24-fets controller caught fire and their lab is almost destroyed. I am not kidding just be careful, high voltage plus huge current are powerful.
 
wshi said:
Hello steveo,

I am just wondering did you ever do a extreme condition test for the controller? As far as I know most major e-bike manufactures require their controller to pass stall start test, which is a test they deliberately welding a BLDC on the testing base so it can’t spin, then connect the controller and turn thrust to max, the controller should withhold 8~10 seconds over circuit without smoke or blow up. The test is usually repeated 3 times with 5 minutes gap. I heard last week while one of other potential supplier doing stall test with their 24-fets controller caught fire and their lab is almost destroyed. I am not kidding just be careful, high voltage plus huge current are powerful.

Hey wshi,

I'm very confident i could pass this test with the stock shunt, however i'm not willing to toast a controller i paid for, if members on the forums are willing to donate a pcb & mosfets i will do some crazy tests with my 5306 to ensure ultimate reliablity!

I have pushed my diy 133v controller though hell and back... and it never let me down i've held the brake and gave it some heavy throttle without flying of the bike and no pop!, and look at the work on it .... (looks for photo in forums)

these photos bring some good memories; i remember the plasma arch & melting of the fuse when i blew the controller the first time !!! ^_^


n8i2g.jpg


4jkk86.jpg


4sh0md.jpg



-steveo
 
Back
Top