3 speed hub as jackshaft. Questions?

recumpence

recumpence

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Hey Guys,

I am looking to use a 3 speed hub as a jackshaft for a drive unit (possibly for production) driven by a 3210. Anyway, I have a couple questions;

#1 What hubs are toughest?

#2 Are all hubs able to be back driven? What I mean is to drive the hub shell with the motor and use the hub's own sprocket as an output sprocket to the rear wheel (left side drive)?

I know I am not the first to think of doing this. However, I would like to make something that can be easily reproduced.

Thoughts?

Matt
 
Miles said:
Hi Matt,

Yes, most hubs can be back-driven, I think.

I guess, ideally, you want one with all overdrive - back-driven this would give all reduction....
Click to expand...

OK Mr Miles. Wave your magic wand and let me know what hub would be best. :D

Matt
 
Matt,
I am doing the exact same thing! After seeing kim shread his with such ease.

I actualy looked at a bicycle camlifter built using a 3 speed for a jack shaft while down in Ohio. He has a very well exicuted unit on a motored bike. & it is holding up well to the pounding of a china girl 4 stroke motor.
look on the seat post tube in the rear fender work.....& the metal work on this bike is phenominal.
http://www.acmemotorbikes.com/?file=kop4.php

#1 the shimao seems to get the high ratings from looking around the internet.
(can't find any think to linc you ATM)
2) I have a shimano & an old sturmey archer....I am going to risk saying yes. (both of mine do at least)

I have ridden some nice powerd bikes electric & otherwise. To be honest, haveing a range of gearing really is a bonus. Now I am in search of specific ratios that are perfect for the emerging racing applications.

We really are streatching the limits of "what is a bicycle".
(did you send the motors out for winding yet?....I really want to see one of them in motion)
 
I can't think of a 3 speed which is all overdriven. The only hub that comes to mind is the SA 8 speed.....

So, I guess it's whichever is the toughest one-up, one-down, direct-drive in the middle....

You might find some are better than others at gear changing, when back-driven...
 
This may take some experimentation. The drive unit for this will be difficult to design and manufacture. But, I think it is worth a try.

Thud,

I knew you would be doing something similar. :wink:

We should talk and compare ideas. I think the range of gearing in a typical 3 speed is pretty good for our application. I think most are about 70% increase from 1st to 3rd. So, 1st could be geared for 25mph for hill climbing or pulling a load (or just putting around without lugging the ESC. Then in 3rd, 40mph would be possible. That is PLENTY of speed for nearly everyone.

Basically, I am looking at moving away from pushing for more HP (heck, I cannot use what I have already) and move more toward other things like efficiency, possibly on-board solar, and getting more out of less (more use out of less power).

Anyway, that is my mindset. Right now I am building a Catrike 700-E. That will use a 7 turn Wye 3220 on 48 volts. It will be relatively modest in power compared to my other builds. I will probably use that as a test platform for this drive once I get it mocked up and tested. But, for now, the CT700 will be a single ratio setup geared for about 30 to 35mph.

Oh, I just realized the gearing will be backward, 3rd will be 1st due to the back driving. That is funny.... :mrgreen:

Matt
 
Hi,

Miles:
Miles said:
recumpence said:
Oh, I just realized the gearing will be backward, 3rd will be 1st due to the back driving.
Click to expand...
Yup. Otherwise, the Sturmey Archer S3X would be perfect, apart from the price..........
Click to expand...
Is the ratio arrangement of the SA S3X that big a disadvantage? It will require more initial reduction but that shouldn't be an issue for Mr. Reduction.

They market it as a 3 speed "fixie". Presumably that means its more efficient than a conventional 3 speed hub? Do you think it might be stronger than a conventional 3 speed hub as well?

Matt:
Gary had this to say about the Nexus 3-speed hubs:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5297&p=79741
GGoodrum said:
I'm sure the Nexus hubs can handle the power. There's a guy with a bike shop down in San Diego (Rusty Spokes, in Pacific Beach...) who custom builds chopper-style motor bikes, using Etek and Mars motors. He uses these same Nexus 3-speed hubs with these beasts, and they have worked flawlessly, even pumping 15 hp through them. Instead of chain, however, his bikes are belt driven, using regular toothless v-belts. There's a little bit of "slippage" when starting out, which is like a clutch. Works great, he says, and these things can hit close to 60 in just 2nd gear. Anyway, he's never had a single problem with any of the Nexus hubs.

-- Gary
Click to expand...
 
MitchJi said:
Hi,

Miles:
Miles said:
recumpence said:
Oh, I just realized the gearing will be backward, 3rd will be 1st due to the back driving.
Click to expand...
Yup. Otherwise, the Sturmey Archer S3X would be perfect, apart from the price..........
Click to expand...
Is the ratio arrangement of the SA S3X that big a disadvantage? It will require more initial reduction but that shouldn't be an issue for Mr. Reduction.

They market it as a 3 speed "fixie". Presumably that means its more efficient than a conventional 3 speed hub? Do you think it might be stronger than a conventional 3 speed hub as well?
Click to expand...
Gearing down to gear back up again is inefficient, that's all. It doesn't have a freewheel but that may, or may not, be the weakest link, for this use. If there wasn't a need to back-drive it would be ideal.... as there is, it doesn't have an obvious advantage.... (unless you want regen., of course).
 
Boeing uses these bikes

http://www.worksman.com/

I've seen 3 speed cassettes on a jack shaft. The crank turns one side of the cassette and the other side turns the axle.


3cbonmoverview-200.jpg
 
One of the methods I have sketched up for ARTOO to use the powerchair motors on the front wheels is to use the SA, Shimano333 or Sachs hubs as jackshafts, but I'd be inputting from the sprocket as normal most likely (I actually don't think I ever considered the other way--why exactly do you want to do that? I'm sure it's obvious but I am feeling kinda stupid today).

I was going to just use them directly in the wheels, but I want to use disc brakes and it looks to be overly complicated and possibly failure-prone to try to get adapters to work on these hubs, since I'd have to modify the discs themselves, too (significantly cutting out some of the center material, redrilling holes in a larger than normal pattern). Using the 3speeds as jackshafts removes that problem, though it adds a bit more weight (that of the plain wheel hubs).
 
There are two reasons I want to back drive it;

#1 The existing sprocket can be used as an output to the rear wheel rather than make some adaptor. That would simplify the fabrication.

#2 It would make for better freewheeling capability because the left side chain would be moving while coasting. If back driving, the freewheeling would allow the hub body to remain stationary while coasting. However, if using it the typical direction would force the hub to spin while coasting. That would add significant drag because the hub would be turning 3 to 4 times faster than the rear wheel.

Matt
 
I'm going to do something similar (although driving it in reverse I hadn't considered) and my approach is to use a SA 3sp hub and then try to kill it. I'll include clearance for the larger hub though, in case I have to use a larger one.

All this fooferaw about which hubs can take it, and which can't. Whose sig is it about a thousand opinions vs one test? It seems like no one has a list of tough hubs, so we're going to have to determine the old fashion way.

I'm starting with the cheap one, results in 2-3 months. But I hope you all beat me to it! :lol:

Katou
 
Hi,
amberwolf said:
One of the methods I have sketched up for ARTOO to use the powerchair motors on the front wheels is to use the SA, Shimano333 or Sachs hubs as jackshafts, but I'd be inputting from the sprocket as normal most likely (I actually don't think I ever considered the other way--why exactly do you want to do that? I'm sure it's obvious but I am feeling kinda stupid today).

I was going to just use them directly in the wheels, but I want to use disc brakes and it looks to be overly complicated…
Click to expand...
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=597011
the two choices in disc-compatable three-speed IGHs are the Shimano Nexus SG-3D55 and the SRAM iMotion-3 Disc.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't it be easier to use a disc-compatable three-speed hub?
 
MitchJi said:
Wouldn't it be easier to use a disc-compatable three-speed hub?
Click to expand...
Sure, it would. (Although ideally they'd be able to be flipped left-for-right so I can run them symmetrically.) Got any free ones laying around? :lol: The only reason I'm even using the ones I have now is that they came as donations. ;) So I am working with what I have, to make what I need to use. I'm probably not as thrifty or creative about it as Naeem, but I do what I can. ;)

I don't have the budget to buy things except when I am absolutely sure I can use them in my projects for some long time to come. When there is something I just want to try out, then unless I can get it for ridiculously cheap, like less than the cost of a week's groceries (which for me is VERY little, on the order of $15-$20 or less depending on what sales I can hit, coupons, etc), and I have enough stored food/etc to take me thru the time it'll take to re-earn that (usually I do), then I won't be able to justify spending anything on "experimental parts". :)

Most stuff I play around with was somebody else's junk or trash, and typically cost me the energy and time to haul it back to my place. Just the shipping costs on ordering things on the web costs more than I can usually afford to spend on the *items*! :shock: That's what upset me so much about the USPS double-charging me and refusing to refund it.


But even aside from the money, the *challenge* of trying to make it all work is a lot of fun, most of the time!
 
So although it has been done before there is no topic on ES about this other than this one ? Because it looks promising if you don't have too strong an E-motor , even just 2 speeds (low/direct) is better than direct drive I think ! And it should be possible to do cheaply with some simple engineering/fab. Cheap and still work good enough is always ok in my book :wink:

Say , when you guys talk about the sturmy archer 3 speed in general , do you mean the one that has been around for 30+ years (the one with the little chain coming out of the axle) or is there some newer type ?

There has been some discussion about strenght of the various in-hub gear systems before as I remember , but is there also something known of issues with making lots of revs with them , how do they take that ?
 
I think I'm the only one considering using such an old design actually. Yes, I am going to start with that one, with the chain coming out the side. Then, I will kill it. mu ha ha ha haaaa.


Katou
 
I followed your link there to motorbicycling, and on the last page of that thread there is a dude in NZ that was saying he put 6000 km on his Shimano 3-spd in offroad conditions (I think he means trails and such) before it broke. And it broke because the chain came off under power, not in normal use.

http://motorbicycling.com/f37/3-speed-jack-shaft-11499-9.html#post131681

Good news methinks.

Katou
 
Matt,

I'm looking forward to what you come up with here!

Interesting ideas regarding the backdriving. I like the idea of using the input
as the output in order to have a lower friction freewheel.... But wouldn't the friction be the same, as it's still spinning the same
bearings? I guess the inertia of the input drive would be less when compared to the spinning the hub.

It would be neat if you could used the same 3 spline SA sprockets for the input and output, then you have a common sprocket source.

The shimano 3 speed hub allows you to use the disc brake output as an interface to a 6 bolt disc brake fixed sprocket. I guess that you can always
tie into the the spoke flanges like the Sturmey Archer 3 speed jackshaft.
 
i know this topic is old but i was wondering if anyone has had a 3 speed hub fail due to torque from electric mid drive?

i am thinking about getting http://www.industrialbicycles.com/Huskyindustrialtriket-326industrialtricycle.htm

and i was wondering if i should get the 3 speed option or stick with just the coster brake and i was wondering if anyone has destroyed their 3 speed hub from an electric motor.
 
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