3 speed sturmey front wheel drive with 30(-45)mile range
- Thread starter bionicdan
- Start date
spinningmagnets
100 TW
Well done, sir! I like it.
Hillhater
100 TW
brilliant !
That is probably the first powered front hub drive with shifting gears !
That is probably the first powered front hub drive with shifting gears !
grindz145
1 MW
Awesome, what battery are you using? Healthy range.
spinningmagnets
100 TW
Heres a similar build. I think the Sturmey Archer hubs are the narrowest, and the best candidate for a front wheel IGH.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19710&p=287597
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=19710&p=287597
Here's a few more:
Subject: 3 speed front wheel drive e-bike
http://www.evalbum.com/3398
Using a geared hub up front seems to be an easy and cheap way to get the most out of a low power setup. The one concern I have is what happens if the IGH seizes up. Putting a freewheel hub in the wheel and the IGH between it and the motor would allow for more gear down and might give an extra margin for safety.
Subject: 3 speed front wheel drive e-bike
http://www.evalbum.com/3398
Using a geared hub up front seems to be an easy and cheap way to get the most out of a low power setup. The one concern I have is what happens if the IGH seizes up. Putting a freewheel hub in the wheel and the IGH between it and the motor would allow for more gear down and might give an extra margin for safety.
I like it: It's nice to know the smaller size helps; I've been planning something similar for ARTOO's front wheels (with rear wheel pedal drive):
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15214&start=0
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15214&start=0
If the internal hub gear jams on due to failure all that will happen is the motor becomes permanently engaged. My last build had no freewheel so as soon as you shut the power off it just started to drag a little so hopefully all that would happen is it would gently slow the bike down instead of starting to freewheel as normal. As for gear down you physically cannot get a smaller motor sprocket on these shafts than the ones I have made without cutting the rod off and welding a 6 or 7 tooth one on. I managed to get a 9t double slotted sprocket and machine it out to a D shape then grind off some of the washer and spacer so the chain stopped riding up on the shaft and nut badly.
I honestly wouldnt even bother with a my1016 or zy1016 (unite copy?) unless you ditch the standard 12t sprocket for a 9/90t type of setup. Unless of course you can get a larger than 90t cog but even then it starts to fowl curved forks and accentuate any play in your freewheel. I ran this on a 26 inch wheel with no gears to reduce the gearing and at around 1900rpm fighting the wind for a few miles it nearly caught fire. After 20 minutes I could just touch it enough to open it up and it was black and full of molten stuff lol. Maybe if you had a sturmey hub built into a 26" wheel and wanted to support it well with your legs it might be ok but my last build had no gearing involved making it always wanting to do 25mph or overheat if you went slower. Here are my sums which have become vital for these little motors to survive.
I did the inches in a mile 63360" divided by wheel circumference 63" multiplied by the hypothesises speed you want to look at 14 (mph) finally divided by 60. So at 14mph my wheels are doing 234rpm, my 90t cog is ten times bigger than my 9t sprocket so my motor ends up at 2340rpm (2600 rated motor) and draws around 6 to 8amps. Just 200rpm less than this and it draws nearer 12amps and heats up. On the 20 inch rim it also draws half the power and goes 35 percent further per charge than it did on my 26" wheeled bike. The reason iv used 14mph is this is the constant speed it does on the flat whether it has 10 stone or 20 stone on it in 1st gear without pedaling. Its more like 17mph in second but raises the current to 10ish amps and heats the motor to 40 degrees (cuts out at 60).
http://www.900mpg.org/electric_building.php
As for power It started life with two 7kg 12v 24ah lucas deep cycle gels. But the powers that be didnt like the weight and as mine is out of action for now my lady friend has borrowed my 20ah ping lifepo4. On my previous build (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23790) We never went more than 20 miles on the lead acid as the volt display would start showing voltage sag and id panic about over discharging them but would guess there is probably at least a 5 mile difference in these batteries even though the gels say 24ah it seems they gave out 18ish in the end due to that pesky pukka purket thingy effect. Iv never actually run the batteries out of power even after 30 miles but just hate it when cells start to drop as I know they dont like it, maybe il do a full drain one day.
I believe this hub is the AW version with 2nd as direct drive and the ones either side reduction or increased ratio with an oln of 108mm. I think I may have swapped the lock nuts for slimmer ones or lost a spacer I cant remember now but this slim hub with track spacing has been key to this all working out as it has.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer.html aw
I know every idea you will have ever thought of has been done before or patented and I wasnt professing to be the first for this idea but I bet mine would out do the rest of them on range due the extra effort iv made with making sure my sturmey had reduction gearing (I think most have direct drive and then increase) and modified the motors sprocket meaning optional legal uk speeds, and very low amp draw. I actually wanted an 8 speed hub as a friction drive but thought better of it and did this as the bike was a gift given by my 22 year old womans brother who sadly died 2 days after and wanted to make something fun with his last gift and memory to maria from him.
Heres a quick pic of the £6 voltage display which helps to gauge how much your asking of the motor by watching the voltage drop or raise, the battery and the tiny 9t sprocket.
I honestly wouldnt even bother with a my1016 or zy1016 (unite copy?) unless you ditch the standard 12t sprocket for a 9/90t type of setup. Unless of course you can get a larger than 90t cog but even then it starts to fowl curved forks and accentuate any play in your freewheel. I ran this on a 26 inch wheel with no gears to reduce the gearing and at around 1900rpm fighting the wind for a few miles it nearly caught fire. After 20 minutes I could just touch it enough to open it up and it was black and full of molten stuff lol. Maybe if you had a sturmey hub built into a 26" wheel and wanted to support it well with your legs it might be ok but my last build had no gearing involved making it always wanting to do 25mph or overheat if you went slower. Here are my sums which have become vital for these little motors to survive.
I did the inches in a mile 63360" divided by wheel circumference 63" multiplied by the hypothesises speed you want to look at 14 (mph) finally divided by 60. So at 14mph my wheels are doing 234rpm, my 90t cog is ten times bigger than my 9t sprocket so my motor ends up at 2340rpm (2600 rated motor) and draws around 6 to 8amps. Just 200rpm less than this and it draws nearer 12amps and heats up. On the 20 inch rim it also draws half the power and goes 35 percent further per charge than it did on my 26" wheeled bike. The reason iv used 14mph is this is the constant speed it does on the flat whether it has 10 stone or 20 stone on it in 1st gear without pedaling. Its more like 17mph in second but raises the current to 10ish amps and heats the motor to 40 degrees (cuts out at 60).
http://www.900mpg.org/electric_building.php
As for power It started life with two 7kg 12v 24ah lucas deep cycle gels. But the powers that be didnt like the weight and as mine is out of action for now my lady friend has borrowed my 20ah ping lifepo4. On my previous build (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23790) We never went more than 20 miles on the lead acid as the volt display would start showing voltage sag and id panic about over discharging them but would guess there is probably at least a 5 mile difference in these batteries even though the gels say 24ah it seems they gave out 18ish in the end due to that pesky pukka purket thingy effect. Iv never actually run the batteries out of power even after 30 miles but just hate it when cells start to drop as I know they dont like it, maybe il do a full drain one day.
I believe this hub is the AW version with 2nd as direct drive and the ones either side reduction or increased ratio with an oln of 108mm. I think I may have swapped the lock nuts for slimmer ones or lost a spacer I cant remember now but this slim hub with track spacing has been key to this all working out as it has.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer.html aw
I know every idea you will have ever thought of has been done before or patented and I wasnt professing to be the first for this idea but I bet mine would out do the rest of them on range due the extra effort iv made with making sure my sturmey had reduction gearing (I think most have direct drive and then increase) and modified the motors sprocket meaning optional legal uk speeds, and very low amp draw. I actually wanted an 8 speed hub as a friction drive but thought better of it and did this as the bike was a gift given by my 22 year old womans brother who sadly died 2 days after and wanted to make something fun with his last gift and memory to maria from him.
Heres a quick pic of the £6 voltage display which helps to gauge how much your asking of the motor by watching the voltage drop or raise, the battery and the tiny 9t sprocket.
Yours probably is mroe efficient; I was just commenting that I liked that yours shows that the smaller wheels will make a positive efficiency difference, as that is how I was pretty sure I wanted to go with mine--20" wheels in front.bionicdan said:
(mostly because I have tires, rims and possible spokes in that size from some jogger's carriages and whatnot, and they'd make a few other things easier). Regarding the gearing ratios, I think you're probably riht about that too; I don't think I ever decided exactly what I wanted to do with mine, but since the motors I'd wanted to use have gearboxes built-in that bring them down to about 100-130RPM at 36V, then I could gear them back up using the chainrings to the IGH, then use the IGH's 1:1 for average cruise, high for traffic, and low for acceleration or hills.
spinningmagnets
100 TW
With cell_man's kit going for $200 (must add battery and charger), This wouldn't be my first choice. However...
If fuel prices spike up to over $5 a gallon this summer, all the hubmotors on the shelf will be snapped up and out of stock. The bulk of the kits arrive by cheapest shipping from China, cargo ship. Small parts (and even some hub kits) fill vacant cargo space in airliners to make a full cargo bay, but the majority come by ship.
When hubmotors are sold out and have a waiting list...I can make as many of these front non-hubs as I want. Plenty of the narrow Stumey 3-speeds available no matter what the national economy is doing, If TNC motors are sold out, I can use an RC motor, or whatever motor is available...
The 3-speed trans is a true upscale feature for efficiency (more range with the same size battery). I would shoot for 36V on a smallish 500W motor for ultimate range on a small pack.
If fuel prices spike up to over $5 a gallon this summer, all the hubmotors on the shelf will be snapped up and out of stock. The bulk of the kits arrive by cheapest shipping from China, cargo ship. Small parts (and even some hub kits) fill vacant cargo space in airliners to make a full cargo bay, but the majority come by ship.
When hubmotors are sold out and have a waiting list...I can make as many of these front non-hubs as I want. Plenty of the narrow Stumey 3-speeds available no matter what the national economy is doing, If TNC motors are sold out, I can use an RC motor, or whatever motor is available...
The 3-speed trans is a true upscale feature for efficiency (more range with the same size battery). I would shoot for 36V on a smallish 500W motor for ultimate range on a small pack.
bionicdan said:
There is also the possibility for the outer can of the IGH to become one with the axle. Then, if the tire grips the road it may flip the rider over frontward. If the tire skids it will cause diminished steering control. I think that's why we don't see IGH's in front wheels commercially, its too much liability?
I have no idea what the probability of such a failure would be, but for me the consequences are something to be minimized if possible.
Before putting something into use with a date stamp of about 1988 I thought it best to have a quick peek inside and give it a grease. It seems to me that the cogs were much more seperate from the axle than I would have imagined. It seemed far more likely that a jam up with the can was only possible once gross wear had occurred on the centralising intermediate cogs and/or something broke into pieces. Hopefully This will become obvious with vibration but for now its only got 70 miles on it and is as new. I did a fair bit of digging and only found one story of failure on google concerning much more than 250watts used and no moaning old ladies who couldnt get thier hair nets and dog food home on time due to a failure (maybe as they dont live on the internet like some of us).
Exploded view
http://medlibrary.org/medwiki/Sturmey-Archer
If a rider can make 200 watts and it survived my other halfs force while on the rear (her actuall nickname is thunder thighs and she can pick me up and run up stairs with me over shoulder) I was convinced it would be fine for her needs up front doing her impression of a powered snail. I know iv bleeted on about how fast iv taken it but im nuts, she just rides it down the 25 mile beach we live on at 11 to 13mph at half throttle half leg power. Shes not a speed freak so any high speed accidents are only ever going to be a problem when I borrow it to go to the shops. Iv headbutted a cars bonnet at 70 mph flew 25 feet through the air and got stuck 6 foot up a tree before now so il take my chance with 18mph down the seafront but it is a valid point im always aware of while riding as like you say all steering would be null if something jammed. At least mines not on the roads but a good point to people who are making a commuter.
My big orange patriot is waiting for its 500w conhis motor as we speak so I can stop thinking of this very issue and can start sweeping round the corners as fast as straight lines. I only ever messed with a my1016 to test the range and power with the legal uk power (I think its actually 200w for a single seater bike) before considering spending big bucks on something fancy or just a good kit. Then my mrs got interested so I gave her my old diy kit. I think you end up paying far more than a bike is really worth buying new ones at the moment. They seem to be awful bikes with motors in them or really great bikes that are way overpriced. This guy spent 10,000 dollars and it goes up hills like any of our creations, wheres the fun in buying something all ready to go lol although he states his life is worth the 10k.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt0RUooD0-A&feature=email&email=comment_reply_received
It doesnt even say what chemistry the battery is on the website for optibike and they are so cagey about any specific details it looks like a bit of previously mentioned nice bike way overpriced. Diy rules I think
Exploded view
http://medlibrary.org/medwiki/Sturmey-Archer
If a rider can make 200 watts and it survived my other halfs force while on the rear (her actuall nickname is thunder thighs and she can pick me up and run up stairs with me over shoulder) I was convinced it would be fine for her needs up front doing her impression of a powered snail. I know iv bleeted on about how fast iv taken it but im nuts, she just rides it down the 25 mile beach we live on at 11 to 13mph at half throttle half leg power. Shes not a speed freak so any high speed accidents are only ever going to be a problem when I borrow it to go to the shops. Iv headbutted a cars bonnet at 70 mph flew 25 feet through the air and got stuck 6 foot up a tree before now so il take my chance with 18mph down the seafront but it is a valid point im always aware of while riding as like you say all steering would be null if something jammed. At least mines not on the roads but a good point to people who are making a commuter.
My big orange patriot is waiting for its 500w conhis motor as we speak so I can stop thinking of this very issue and can start sweeping round the corners as fast as straight lines. I only ever messed with a my1016 to test the range and power with the legal uk power (I think its actually 200w for a single seater bike) before considering spending big bucks on something fancy or just a good kit. Then my mrs got interested so I gave her my old diy kit. I think you end up paying far more than a bike is really worth buying new ones at the moment. They seem to be awful bikes with motors in them or really great bikes that are way overpriced. This guy spent 10,000 dollars and it goes up hills like any of our creations, wheres the fun in buying something all ready to go lol although he states his life is worth the 10k.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt0RUooD0-A&feature=email&email=comment_reply_received
It doesnt even say what chemistry the battery is on the website for optibike and they are so cagey about any specific details it looks like a bit of previously mentioned nice bike way overpriced. Diy rules I think
Green Machine
100 kW
nice work...really like that bike
mihai_atanasiu
100 mW
hi,
I am considering to transform an city bike with 3 speed in an electric bike;
My first choice is to put a front wheel hub motor;
The second choice is to make a non hub electric bike;
the question is : how good is the 3 speed hub system ? can electric motor destroy the mechanism ?
I am considering to transform an city bike with 3 speed in an electric bike;
My first choice is to put a front wheel hub motor;
The second choice is to make a non hub electric bike;
the question is : how good is the 3 speed hub system ? can electric motor destroy the mechanism ?
spinningmagnets
100 TW
If you have a powerful motor and accelerate hard, it may damage an IGH. It would be wise to find some way to snub the acceleration so that the power eases-on in a gentle manner. Best of luck with whatever you try....
One way is a slipper clutch of some type (search thru Recumpence's threads for one such), and another is to mount hte sprockets using rubber rings around the bolts, with oversized mounting holes in the sprockets. There should be others.
mihai_atanasiu said:
Hi so far so good. Compared to a solid single geared set up this is bliss. It breezes up most hills with a good helping from you and speeds downhills as fast as you dare in 3rd gear. Iv been very careful to make sure she only engages the motor once moving a little or at least have it engaged ever so gently before going wide open throttle as there is often some lag with the freewheel and will clunk badly if you dont be do this. This has now been used for gathering information door to door for the government and is a really good talking point and has been reliable (minus a puncture or two, bmx tyres now fitted).
Power source unassisted/assisted speeds loaded voltage
9ah sla 24v 6kg 1st 24.2v 13/17mph 2nd 22.9v 17/22mph range=15 miles
24ah sla 24v 14kgs 1st 25.5v 14/18mph 2nd 24.4v 18/23mph range=30 miles took 12ah approx so estimated is around double depending on voltage sag and terrain (its flat coast here but windy)
20ah lifepo4 ping 5kg 1st 26v 15/19mphmph 2nd 25.7v 18/25mph range=30 miles took 10ah approx so easily 60 miles with 40 % help from you.
Cost ended up being very similar for both systems not counting the ping lifepo4 (£280). I ordered the conhis motor only and built it into my own wheel to save money on postage etc. I ended up with too short spokes and my downhill beefy rim still didnt accept the fat nipples and needed drilling out 0.4mm each hole yawn. It was about £112 delivered for motor, controller, throttle and bag plus £18 for a fat rim. The shopper set up was around £130 with some basic sla batteries and the bike and sturmey archer hub as a freebie.
Torque IGH stress.
Allot of people along with myself have been concerned with the stress on the hub gears. I cant think of a way to convert the force of 13 stone man who lifts 400 pounds at the gym with his legs standing on the pedals when your setting off at traffic lights or pulling out onto a busy road into watts but I bet its at least 300w. Or the force of my rather heavy girlfriend who has been known to carry sofas and me on her own easily pushing down on it. These hubs have been standing up to this since 1980 hence I think it earned its place in the safe to use in a 250w set up.
Compare this to my non geared and larger wheeled 26 inch version that used to draw double the ampage, have half the range and eventually the motor melted due to low rpm (1400 rpm in 26inch and around 2300rpm in shopper with 33% geardown). I now have a conhis motor and find it slightly slower and harder to maintain speeds above 18mph due to 24volts and motor design. I hate to say it but do prefer the shopper regarding nice no drag freewheeling plus the variable speed with the gears. Obviously its not all about speed and have to consider the conhis motor being very efficient and really high in torque and silent to annoy the roadies in lycra as they cant figure why you flew up a monster hill past them. Beep Beeep lol
