400 watts in suitcase - can it power a Collosus or bigger?

[BigOutrunner]

While commercially available batteries still have weight and range issues, perhaps this supposed 400 watts in a suitcase from IHI can fill the gap?



Youtube video here:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Al8elCF816g
(Note: you might have to remove the 'm' in the link if watching on a PC)

My question to our experts is: Will this be capable of powering a Collosus motor or even a much bigger motor?
Will it be capable of handling a small EV's needs on a highway?

Thank you in advance.
BigOutrunner

 

[Ricky_nz]

My question to our experts is: Will this be capable of powering a Collosus motor or even a much bigger motor?

Well collosus can draw way more than 400 watts. You might get it to spin no load at 400W but under real loads its not likely to work as well as you would want. Maybe if you charged a small battery pack for bursts of power but 400W is way too small.
If i remember right collosus is a 12KW motor so you want to power it with 1/30th of its rated power?

 

[BigOutrunner]

My thoughts exactly.

The experimental Jaguar C-X75 has bigger Bladon microturbine generators,



... but for replenishing a battery pack that is already at 10 or 15 percent charge, this IHI microturbine would be of little use it seems. I've paused on their testing in the videos. The amps displayed did not give much hope.

This microturbine won't do for us guys who like to race.

Even if scaled up to Bladon size, won't do even for a Collosus motor, much less an EV motor?

I admire the lightness of the thing though - and OMG those RPMs!

Surely I'm not the only one getting tired of running out of juice on my lithium iron phosphate batteries. More comments please.

 

[liveforphysics]

I have run out of battery on an ebicycle once in the last 2 years, and I was totally asking for it. The problem people have is picking the wrong sized pack. The right sized pack is a million times better than some screaming burning exhausting turbine to lug around IMHO.

 

[BigOutrunner]

Sadly the big outrunner that I have made is much larger than a Collosus. Hence my problems with rapid depletion of my battery packs. Lightness appeals to me in my application. Hopefully batteries progress soon to the point where it doesnt end up heavier than a conventional ICE vehicle - perhaps graphene? Sadly it isnt there yet today.

Im all for pure plug in vehicles, dont get me wrong, but I need a solution right now, not later.

Using these turbines to charge batteries instead of the usual ICE - the way the Volt does intrigues me.

To paraphrase one Jeremy Clarkson - 'How hard can it be?' to modify the innards of say a Jetcat, and use a CNC Shopbot to make a low cost gas turbine and perhaps run on propane as with this IHI microturbine?

 

[bigmoose]

Using these turbines to charge batteries instead of the usual ICE - the way the Volt does intrigues me.

First, the small, integrated package is a significant accomplishment. That said, small gas turbines have a tremendous inherent efficiency problem. The tip clearances create a greater % stage leakage as size shrinks. When and if this product goes commercial, I would expect two characteristics. An overall conversion efficiency (from fuel BTU in to watts out) perhaps less than 1/2 that of a 1 kw diesel generator; and a very high price tag.

The key sales characteristic of this device will be watts per pound. It will likely be a military product for field recharging of batteries. The problem there is they are currently running it on propane, and our military wants a single fuel of essentially Jet-A/Diesel.

Still a nice accomplishment.

 

[BigOutrunner]

Thanks Dave for sharing your knowledge. So it is tip clearance creating a larger percentage stage leakage which causes relatively weak BTU to watts conversion efficiency.

When the Jag C-X75 came out with the Bladon turbine, I mistakenly thought (as many others have) that the jet noise was what killed it being used on the 2nd gen C-X75. The IHI uses very high temp fabric and padding material to deaden the sound, so it is likely that the Bladon turbine could have used the same solution to minimize the noise.

Flying in B747s and A380s you gain a tremendous respect for jet turbines and their reliability and power. But as a small package for replenishing nearly spent batteries on the move, it seems it will fall way short of being a definitive solution.

Thank you again gentlemen for your insight and knowledge.

BigOutrunner

 

[bearing]

I think that another efficiency problem with small units is the relative high surface area to volume ratio. Heat is lost through the walls. Friction is probably another problem.

It's the same problem on small ICE and stirlings.

 

[BigOutrunner]

I believe that the IHI turbine shown is a typically Japanese miniaturization demonstrator. As Dave said an impressive achievement nonetheless. But even at 140KW charging capacity (?!?- per above Jag C-X75 image for two turbines) the Bladon turbine has not seen wide spread adoption success thus its very likely that all the shortcomings cited by all you gentlemen are accurate.

Perhaps then the most viable battery range extenders for large electric motors for vehicles are the experimental opposed piston diesels that have come out recently, and not these microturbines.

Kindly point out if there are better range extender options that you know of. Thank you all!

 

[bigmoose]

What you are looking for is, relatively, the same specifications that the military are searching for for front line battery chargers for man portable electronics. It has been a while since I followed up on the designs... about 10 to 15 years ago there were stirling cycle prototypes, then more recently there was basically an industrial redesign of a model airplane engine in the 0.60 to 1 cu in displacement coupled with an internal high speed alternator that seemed to do pretty well. I haven't heard of anything else new, but I haven't been looking.

Although the diesels will have better overall conversion efficiency they will destroy the power to weight density criteria if cast iron is introduced. Therefore gasoline/propane may work out better in low power requirements.

Personally, If you can deal with the exhaust and the noise, I think one of those Still or Honda weed whacker motors that are 4 cycle (Honda GX25) coupled with a high speed motorcycle alternator is the sweet spot.

 

[BigOutrunner]

What you are looking for is, relatively, the same specifications that the military are searching for for front line battery chargers for man portable electronics. It has been a while since I followed up on the designs... about 10 to 15 years ago there were stirling cycle prototypes, then more recently there was basically an industrial redesign of a model airplane engine in the 0.60 to 1 cu in displacement coupled with an internal high speed alternator that seemed to do pretty well. I haven't heard of anything else new, but I haven't been looking.

Although the diesels will have better overall conversion efficiency they will destroy the power to weight density criteria if cast iron is introduced. Therefore gasoline/propane may work out better in low power requirements.

Personally, If you can deal with the exhaust and the noise, I think one of those Still or Honda weed whacker motors that are 4 cycle (Honda GX25) coupled with a high speed motorcycle alternator is the sweet spot.

Thanks Dave!
Actually I love the lack of noise in an EV too much to mount a weed whacker - although you are right the combination you've given is light and powerful.
I was looking at modifying a Jetcat turbine because it seems simple enough as a DIY with shopbot help - and the noise it makes, if scaled down, seems to be well respected by those addicted to exhaust noises. This is supposedly a good audible noise alternative for EVs both ways if it could produce the required power. Some auto manufacturers have resorted to adding fake noises to their EVs for pedestrians.


http://www.gizmag.com/dlr-free-piston-linear-generator-range-extender/27736/

Sadly, this type of range extender is way out of reach as a DIY. Back to the drawing board.