408 Falcon Puma Golden

[Rob Mcgregor]

Hi Everybody-

First off, I want to say you guys have an awesome forum here. You have built a really great community. Thanks so much for the sharing.

I want to build an electric bike and a little intimidated by the options. I want to have a top speed of around 25 mph or higher. I'd like to have decent torque to impress and hopefully inspire others to convert. I'd like to be able to do it fairly inexpensively to also inspire others to convert. Efficiency is important to me, as I would guess most people who end up here. I'd also like to use a 48V 10Ah or 15 Ah duct tape lifepo4. I'd like to install on a rear 26" to keep it as stealth as possible and be able to easily remove the front wheel for easy transport in a '86 Civic.

Soooo, I've narrowed my choices down to the Puma, 408, Golden and the Falcon. The Puma looks good because of the torque. I also like the idea of the freewheel and low weight. I'm guessing it performs similar to the Ezee hub motor in the hub motor simulator. I also assume it is basically this kit:

http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/brushless-geared-motor-p-163.html

What worries me is that it is geared and therefore not as quiet, a little less inspiring for others due to the extra cost, that it might not be upgradeable to 48V or higher due to 120/60 degree differences, limited to 20mph due to 36V limit, not as reliable due to gear wear.

The 408 looks good to me because of the large user base and interchangeable parts for upgrades. However, it has less efficiency over wide rpm range and less torque than the Puma or Falcon. It also will not get to 25+ mph at 48V. At least not without pedaling. The 407 will make it to 25mph but at the cost of efficiency. I'm thinking the 36V 20A controller that can go up to 48V or the 48V 20A or the 72V 20A. All these are small and low weight. I know I mentioned torque, but efficiency, weight, price and size are very important to me and the lower amps don't seem to have much effect on top speed.

The Golden hub looks good to me also. Mainly, I like the price that might inspire others to adopt electric bikes rather than driving a car. I'd really like others to realize it is easy to go electric. It will also make 25+ mph at 48V. It is faster than the 407 and is also more efficient according to the simulator. Problem is it seems hard to upgrade to 48V. I've heard that the motor degree doesn't match the Crystalyte controllers, true? They list a 48V controller on the Golden website but it seems hard to get and you are stuck w/ an extra 36V controller. Does it weigh similar to the 408?

http://www.ampedbikes.com/index.html
http://www.goldenmotor.com/

The Falcon looks the best to me from my simulator research. At 48V, it will go over 30mph at over 80% efficiency and high efficiency over the largest range of speeds and power. It also weighs the same as the 408 but slightly more than the Puma. I can't seem to get much info other than the simulator info. Is it the Electric Bull here? I think it is gearless, yes?

http://www.falconev.com/E-Bikes.html

If it is, that seems reasonably priced except I'd need it to run at 48V. I've heard the 48V Green Hornet is actually a different motor that is so wide it only accepts a single gear. Also, the Green Hornet is pretty steep priced relative to the Electric Bull. Hard to find real info on this option. Degrees for controller upgrade?

Please chime in and add some of your knowledge/experience to the ups and downs of any of these choices. I have no real world experience w/ any of these choices and very much appreciate any input or advice anyone has.

Thanks soooo much,
Rob McGregor

 

[Drunkskunk]

Looks like you've done quite a bit of research on these motors. I'm not familure with the Falcon motors as such, but I've seen the website, and get the impression that its a little too good to be true. its probably a good motor, but I don't believe the hype.

The Golden looks to be a good motor, but they aren't very popular, and its a geared motor. Unless its just falls in your lap, I would look instead at the Puma, which is a much more developed geared hub, with more technicle information avaliable on its preformance and use.

That leaves the 408 up against the Puma. Or perhaps that should be the Crystalyte up against the Puma.

I run a 408/4012 motor, and its a great motor. as a 408 its torque is limited, but there is enough torque on a 700c wheel with 42c tire that it doesn't disapoint at 48V. its still acceptable at 37V, and its near dead silent at both voltages. Ceiling fan motor levels of noise. at 48V on SLA, it woudl do 25+ on fresh cells, but dropped to 22mph soon after. that would more stable on NiCad or better batteries, but its a ~28inch wheel. 26 would be around 20-22mph.

But I now run Lipo cells at 74V and I don't use the 408 much, instead I run the 4012. it does 26-28mph on flat ground, its a little louder, but it has more torque across a wider band, and feels twice as powerfull as the 408 did at 48V. the 408 will hit 35 at this voltage, but its not as torquey. I think a 4011 at 72V on a 26" wheel would be the equivilent.

The Puma just plain has more torque, and with the metal gear option, the guts to handle it. Its a little more efficent at low speeds, but not as efficent at cruising speeds, and its not stealth at all. people are going to hear it, Although I wouldn't call it loud, just loud compared to a Crystalyte. Search Youtube, and you can get some idea how it sounds.

Puma and C-lyte are apples and oranges though. One is best off road or in really hilly areas, the other is better on roads and moderate hills.

 

[Johnbear]

Here is my golden motor hub on a tidalforce frame. It pulls pretty good. The speed on a flat is around 32 kph. It is run by 36v lifepo4's. I think it is a good value. It is very quiet.

 

[Rob Mcgregor]

Hi Johnbear, Drunkskunk and all-

Thanks so much for the replies!

I was under the impression that the Golden motor was gearless. Is it not? Does it sound like gears Johnbear? Has anyone set it up for 48V? I heard it doesn't run correctly w/ a Crystalyte controller. Maybe a 60/120 degree difference?

The Puma sounds great except it seems hard to set it up for over 36V. Therefore it won't go over 23mph. I might like the option of going over 23mph. I'd also like the idea of no noise at all.

I like the 72V 20A controller. Small and light. I'd like to upgrade this controller w/ the 4110 FETs. I heard the new controllers are harder to upgrade because they are no longer analog, true? Can I run the 72V 20A controller at 36V or will it not work because of low voltage contol in the controller? Ideally, I'd like to have two 36V LiFePO4 packs I can run as a single, or both in parallel, or in series at 72V for high speed. Where can I get the controller and 408? Ebike.ca is out of stock of this stuff. Powerride has this stuff but it comes as a kit w/ SLA batteries. I don't want SLAs. I'd also like to be able to start w/ a single 48V battery and then add a second one in series for 96V in the future. Is this possible and still have a rock solid setup or is this pushing the envelope too hard and setting myself up for an unstable setup? I did note that Fechter said a high current diode across the BMS +/- would keep the BMS from frying due to high voltage across the BMS during cutoff, so it seems series duct tape lifepo4 is an option. Makes sense.

The 4011 motor shows about a 5% increase in torque from a standstill and less torque as the speed increases above 2 mph relative to the 408. Seems odd. Am I missing something here? This finding on the simulator seems to go against what most people say about more turns on the stator poles equals more torque.

Thanks so much everybody and please chime in,
Rob McGregor

 

[Drunkskunk]

The 4011 motor shows about a 5% increase in torque from a standstill and less torque as the speed increases above 2 mph relative to the 408. Seems odd. Am I missing something here? This finding on the simulator seems to go against what most people say about more turns on the stator poles equals more torque.

Thanks so much everybody and please chime in,
Rob McGregor

I think I had the Goldenmotor confused with the EZ. Yeah, its gearless.

As for the C-lyte, you have the right Idea, but if you compare them at the same voltage, its going to work out that way.
If you increase the number of turns in the motor, you increase it's caapability to produce magnetic force, But, you also increase it's resistance. 2X the number of turns, 2X the resistance, so 1/2 the speed. meaning you have to double the voltage to compinsate. On paper that works out to a very slight efficancy loss, untill you compare what it does to the torque curve. with the higher windings, its torque is a lot higher for the same top speed. On the order of 50% more. and the real world it works out to better on road efficancy because the motor doesn't get bogged down as easily, or drop in speed as much up hills.

See this effect for your self. use the Ebikes.ca simulater to compare the 404 and 408. the 404 at 36V, 18ah, 50A controller to the 408 72v, 8ah 50A controller. (roughly same wattage battery) Their peak speeds are the same, but the 408 can draw more watts and produce more torque if needed.

 

[knoxie]

HI

YEs the Puma is a very good option, I know a bit about them :lol: just search for 72v electric BMX on youtube and see one running at 72V, Jozzer on the forum here also runs a puma at 80v. A 320 RPM Puma will do 27mph in a 26 inch wheel at 37V and still have way more torque than the equiv xlyte, they are not at all loud nobody hears mine once I am moving, my tires make more noise, just search the forum here for Puma.

Knoxie

 

[Microbatman]

Knoxie

Any update on the puma?

Last I read the controllers we not ready.
What is the status

 

[Rob Mcgregor]

Hi Everybody-

Thanks so much for the informative replies. Is this the Puma? What is the top speed on this motor at 36V, 48V and 72V, 26" wheel? Can I get a controller for this at 48V? What is the drop out spec w/ and w/o disc brake?

http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/brushless-geared-motor-p-163.html

Take care,
Rob