48v 20ah Mr. Lau Chan / Lifepo4.hk pack arrived (May '09)

Does anyone have any insight why my top speed is down now?
I was getting 27.5 or so on this pack for the first week or two.
Now I can't do faster than 26.2 - 26.8 mph

Starting voltage seems to be the same.
Maybe it's not the pack's fault but my BD36 is showing it's age...?
 
Check brake pad rubbing and wind direction. pumping up tires may help a little. Maybe 1/2 mph.
Tires seem to be "porous" and will lose some air over time. Again, fully pumped tires will give some more range and maybe a little speed. So far my BD-36 has never lost speed. It was always something else. Check spokes, too.
 
I tried dogman's long term trickle charge recommendation, letting it run on the third stage 0.8 amp trickle all day and today I saw 28 again on the flats :mrgreen:

I took a different route home that had a long gentle downhill and I actually saw 30mph for the first time ever on my speedometer. It's amazing how conditioned to speed ebikes can make you, 30 didn't feel that super-fast and actually the bike felt more stable somehow, maybe it's the gyroscope effect of the wheels at that rpm?
 
needWheels said:
I hope I don't burn out my other charger which isn't meant for this capacity at all.
Click to expand...

As far as I'm aware, a battery can never be too big for a charger in practice. However, a charger can be too small for a battery. :mrgreen: (That's to say, user complaints of "it won't charge fast enough.")
 
needswheel, youu've mentioned your BD36 is slower than other models. I have an '06 or '07 model. It runs 25 mph on 36 v SLA. What's your speed on 36v SLA?
Another point I have to make is that I seriously doubt that Ping is the only seller of duct tape pouched cells. My non-Ping pack is duct tape and seems to be pouched.
 
swbluto said:
As far as I'm aware, a battery can never be too big for a charger in practice. However, a charger can be too small for a battery. :mrgreen: (That's to say, user complaints of "it won't charge fast enough.")
Click to expand...

Well my worry in that because this charger is so under capacity it has to run all the time (half a day) and therefore reduces it's life dramatically. When it on the final trickle stage the fan doesn't turn on so it gets a little toasty.

Mr. Lau seems to be indicating in his last messages to me that he uses 3A chargers, which I think is his attempt to convince me he is sending back the same kind of part when he uses his own stock to replace it, even though it's pretty obvious the one I got is 5A (labeled 6A but 5A in reality because it's Chinese marketing math)

3A is too underpowered for a 20ah pack and that's what I told him. We'll see what happens, I'm not holding my breath.
 
RTLSHIP said:
needswheel, youu've mentioned your BD36 is slower than other models. I have an '06 or '07 model. It runs 25 mph on 36 v SLA. What's your speed on 36v SLA?
Click to expand...

My BD36 is probably a 2006 model since that's what the approved date is on the charger sheet, I have no way to be certain as I bought it as old unused stock off ebay. I never had new SLA batteries so I never saw full speed at 36v, the most I saw was 23mph on SLA. However on perfectly level ground with a long strip to build up speed I do finally see 28mph or so on lifepo4. So I am only 1mph off. It might be from my BD36 not being trued or just that I keep my seat somewhat high on my bike and that I am not reducing my wind resistance enough. I can live with that 1mph loss.

dogman discovered that if the magnets in the bd36 are not aligned correctly, even off by a little bit, you will lose max speed, which makes perfect sense. I am not willing yet to pull mine apart as I don't have the tools, waiting for the necessarily brush change next year.

Another point I have to make is that I seriously doubt that Ping is the only seller of duct tape pouched cells. My non-Ping pack is duct tape and seems to be pouched.
Click to expand...

Mr. Lau drop ships from two different factories (perhaps more but at least two).
One uses 18650 cells, the other are pouched.
From what I have read, the cheap pouched models can be even worse than the 18650 and not handle 2C very well.

It's a moot point as I am stuck with 18650 and will have to make the best of it.
It would be nice to eventually discover I have the better 18650EC cells but I am not counting on it.
 
The brush holder timing adjustment can speed up or slow down a brushed motor. Slow ones will make more heat. The one I fried last summer was 2 mph slower than the other, both motors new, bought in 2008. One went 25 mph hot of the charger, slas, the other 23 mph. It's pretty easy to take a cover off, It's getting the whole hub out of the wheel that is tricky and can cost ya a fingertip.

Just leave that charger trickling any time you aren't riding the bike. You were getting out of balance when you had the slow speed. The charger can be replaced cheap, the battery not at all cheap to replace. The trickle will help top up the low cells, but really slowly.
 
Ugh this is so not going to end well.
Today I get a message that sounds like I am not even talking to the same person.
Remember that I told him last week that I mailed it back to him.
His excitement makes me think that he got a refund from EMS and is not sharing that with me.
Hi Sir
I have good news for you!

I have talked with my manager about your situation

Here is the solution:
You do not need to send the broken charger back to me

and either do not need to pay extra charges for the shipping

I will arrange to ship you a new 48V3A charger soon
Click to expand...
 
alot of sellers will take your word and send out another part without requiring an exchange, especially with inexpensive
items.
 
No you don't understand, I argued with him for nearly a month, he would not send anything.
Then suddenly a week after I gave up and mailed it back he changed his mind.
I suspect EMS compensated him or the factory after I sent all the photos of the damaged box.

Now he keeps arguing it was a 3 amp charger (because obviously he wants to send what he has laying around).

I would really strongly caution anyone from buying off ebay, it's just not worth the wasted time and money. I don't know why I was suddenly an optimist and hoped my experience would be different from other stories around here.
 
We tried like hell to warn people about mr Lau. As long as everything works , fine, but his CS still is horrible.
 
Yup, I definitely can't say there weren't warnings.
I fell for a recent review of a 48v 15ah pack that the person said turned out pretty well and decided to take a risk on that.

What I didn't know however is that JimmyWu66 *IS* Lau Chan, same person.

This is the page I finally found again that made me realize who he is:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6034&start=75

I expect I'll get one of those little black chargers which are really a converted SLA charger.
(Today he told me that a 5A charger "would not be good for the battery")

So these packs are made of 1300mah cells which means it's really 18.2ah at BEST.

Well at least I have one month down now with no pack troubles, I guess we'll see how far I get and if it fails next year maybe I can find someone to turn it into a 36v pack or something. I really need to find a hard shell case for it.

I still have two weeks to dispute it but I also can't afford to ship it back at this point so I'm pretty much stuck.

I still see endless sales on ebay though, he's still selling under a couple names.
It's easy for him because he just drop ships everything, zero work.

Maybe enough disputes will get ebay to close his paypal account and end it once and for all.
 
By the way, here is the source page for the wholesaler on the cells supposedly used in these packs, notice how they sell the same battery part number IFR18650EC but have two capacities, a 1200mah version and a 1350mah version - wanna bet which version they actually use in the packs?

(oh and they are made in a factory in the same city I believe as where the pack shipped from)

1200mah
6.50 Chinese yuan each = $0.95 U.S. dollars * 224 cells = $212.80 in cell cost
vs
1350mah
8.00 Chinese yuan each = $1.17 U.S. dollars * 224 cells = $262.08 in cell cost

Here's a little resume I found from some senior "scientist" for Valance Technology
and a chart he made about the IFR-18650EC from May of 2007
Looks like he was trained in the USA and Canada.

View attachment IFR-18650EC-graph.png
View attachment IFR-18650EC-graph2.png

Dr. Ming DONG
President, NanoChem Systems (Suzhou) Co., Ltd. 恒正科技(苏州)有限公司
Step in Lithium battery field in 1989, following Prof. Liquan CHEN in China
1997. Ph.D. of Materials Science, Solid State Chemistry from UNIVERSITE BORDEAUX I, France
1997- 1998 Postdoc of Materials Sci.& Eng. in GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY, Atlanta, USA
1998 – 2001 Materials Scientist, Dept. of Chemistry, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, Canada
2001 - 2003 Senior Research Scientist, Henderson R&D Center, Valence Technology, Inc.
Focused on lithium ion polymer cells production improvement, and OEM management
2003 - 2006 Director of R&D, Asian Operations, Valence Technology, Inc.
setup powder production plant, battery packaging plant and R&D center in China, start
commercial production of cathode materials and battery packs in Suzhou, China.
Found NanoChem Systems (Suzhou) Co., Ltd. in Aug. 2006 ,
start mass production of NCSTM Lithium Iron Phosphate Materials in Jan. 2007,
provide technical support to LiB manufactures on using NCSTM powder,
provide OEM management service for large format LiB pack makers
Click to expand...

Oh and I found this on another distributor's page:

Model IFR-18650EC

Nominal Voltage（V） 3.20

Nominal Capacity（mAh） 1350

Thickness×Width×Height (Diameter×Hight) 18×65

Charge 0～45

Discharge –10～50

Storage –20～35

Inner impedance（mΩ） ≤42

Weight（g） ≤42
 
needwheels, on your BD36 what is your maximum range so far on this 48/20 pack from Mr Chan? My guess is about 22
miles with occasional pedaling only.
I have taken my 48/15 pack a max of 14.5 miles on a brushless hub with 51+volt residual.
 
Isn't your 48/15 pack a shrinkwrapped prismatic pack? Or am I thinking of someone else.
They have a higher starting voltage and behave differently, probably better than 18650 cell packs.
But I vaguely remember reading you are getting cutouts on your 15ah pack on a BD36?

I have not attempted to find max range yet, the most I have done is 15 miles or so but that was on 90 degree days and hilly, where my bd36 controller cut out once on the way out, so it was not the fault of the pack/bms.

I've also had 10 mile runs at full throttle, 26+ mph all the way on level ground, zero problems.

Pack voltage has never been below 52 volts and resting voltage 48 hours after charge has now risen to 54.3 volts.

I will probably do a max range test the second week in June where I need to go completely across town, and it's rolling uphill on the way there, but I get the gentle downgrade on the way back.
 
I have a duct taped pack. I've never taken it apart completely, but I strongly believe it is made of pouched/prismatic cells.
My 48/15 pack weighs 15 lbs. pretty light and compact. The mini shrink wrap I put on it is to hold down the 1 inch poly-foam blocks for more external protection and water resistance.
At this point the pack has preformed very well. the only disappointment is that the BMS was installed cross-ways
and there may be no slack to center it. Also, this ebayer was uncommunicative after he got my money.
 
I have a 36v/15Ah Mr. Lau (jimmywu) pack and with pedaling on the hills, I routinely get 25 miles before cutout. Unfortunately, my commute is 28 miles, so it leaves me a bit short. I recently upgraded to a 48/20 Ping pack and am very happy with it. Now the 36v battery will go on my chopper for cruising the neighborhood.
 
What's your range, jimmy, on 48/20 Ping?
 
I just realized my mistake, 15ah would be 18650 cells.
Prismatic can only be in 4ah increments, 12ah 16ah 20ah

Shrinkwrapping foam to your pack is very clever.

Remember there are two kind of cells that they use the in 18650 packs.
One are 1.2ah and the other are 1.35ah
I suspect early packs were made with the 1.35 and then they scaled back to 1.2 to save money but I have absolutely no proof of this unfortunately because the two cells use the same part number, so you'd never know without testing.

It's possible they are the exact same part and depending on what testing level they pass they are either A grade or B grade and maybe they switched to B grade to make more profit. Again I have no proof, it's all just a theory in my head based on typical ebay resellers.

CammyCC supposedly uses many more cells in his 20ah pack than Lau which is why it's heavier at the same claimed ah. I think it's 224 vs 288. This might because of 1.2ah cells vs 1.35ah or it might be an honest attempt at achieving true capacity instead of "Chinese Math". But it also means many more welds to fail someday
(it also means a 25 pound pack vs 20 pounds)
 
This info on Mr. Lau Chan has been gathered from various posts around this forum to help others in the future, all of these are the same person (or his agents)

lifepo4.hk
Mr. Lau
Lau Chan
Ching Lau
Emma (possible employee in HK?)
Ray (possible employee in CN?)
chan71 @gmail.com
cha71 @gmail.com
3721c7 @gmail.com
plypal @petpetgold.com
tonyyan51 @gmail.com
lukeya59 ebay
2707co ebay
peterwong228 ebay
EastUnitedMusic ebay
playgame6969 ebay
jimmywu66 ebay
mp3hk ebay
free_shopping88 ebay
leebenmr08 ebay
tonyyan51 ebay

other threads about him or his packs (sorry not linked because I can only do 10 links per post)
endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6034
endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7628
endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=236&start=30
endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9388
 
RTLSHIP said:
What's your range, jimmy, on 48/20 Ping?
Click to expand...


So far I haven't reached cutout on the Ping. Farthest I've gone is 30 miles and that was going heavy on the throttle and not pedaling much. The 48v system is considerably faster than the 36v system, so now I really only pedal to help with starting from a stop and on the steepest of hills; the rest of the time, it is going faster than I can pedal. Definitely happy with the Ping. I'm planning to buy some Headway packs with a local group buy. When I have those, maybe I'll do some testing to show how the three types of batteries compare.
 
It could be 16 ah. whatever it is, it only weighs 15 lbs. Maybe it's a 12 ah. Or as you say, I got round cells.
But look at Pings website, he doesn't sell 16 ah. He sells 15 ah. This is confusing. One day I will carefully try to open it up.
 
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