50 mile commute - ebike?

pavers

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Hello I'm looking to get an electric bike that'll help me with a 50 mile commute into work. Is this even feasible? Here are some specs:

  • 50 mile each way
    Can recharge at work
    25 miles can be done on paths
    Distance is more important than speed, but with 50 miles to cover getting over 25mph would be helpful
    I am fine with and fully expect to be pedaling for a good 20-25 miles of the way. The electric motor is a means of taking breaks, but keep on moving.
    I may opt to just hop on the bus halfway through the commute (that's still 25 miles biking each way though)
    I want the system to be able to pay for itself in < 6 months through < gas, < car repairs, and weight loss

Doing a couple of days of research, this is what I'm coming up with.


  • 48 volt system
    hub motor
    lithium ion batteries
    20 amps minimum (30 amps preferred)

Is $2000 about right for this or is that too much? I was hoping to spend $1k, but someone told me it would be $2k. Also do those specs seem reasonable? Any suggestions on vendors, manufacturers? I'm in Washington DC area.

Thanks.
 
1k won't get you much. 50miles each way is a pretty high number, and at 25mph at that. 2k sound like a good start. Are you prepare to pedal along with the bike or will this be electric only kind of driving?
 
You could manage a 2hr commute? :shock:

The DC area is great by bike, if you aren't always on roads.

Technically, it is very do-able. Expect to spend at least $1000 on batteries.

:mrgreen:
 
that's a heck of a long way for a daily commute. consider a recumbent for this distance for its greater comfort, coupled to a cyclone or ecospeed kit would be ideal
 
Add front fairing for long distance commute. Get the biggest capacity batteries you can find.
 
Thanks for the replies...It's a commute from Bethesda to Frederick in the mornings, then back down in the evenings. Would be 38 miles if done strictly on roads (rt 355), but there's nothing safe as far as I know so it winds up being 50 miles due to safer less traveled detours. I can jump on a bus half way through and cut it in half. Though not as adventurous, it may be the sane thing to do.

Anyway, yes I would definitely be fine with pedaling, and want to use this to keep in shape as well as reduce battery cost. My understanding is that as a rule of thumb, 1 Amp/h gets you about 1 mile. So 20 amps is about 20/h miles, and 30 amps/h is about 30 miles....and voltage gets you speed, so 48v system should get be up to the mid twenties when needed?

Anyway, from the sound of things, you're all saying as much as $2k sounds about right for:

  • 48 volt system
    hub motor
    lithium ion batteries
    20 amps minimum (30 amps preferred)

Good thing it's tax refund time. At $2k, the investment will be returned in about 150-200 days of commuting (factoring <gas, and <car repairs), or about 9000 miles. My next hope would be that the equipment can last 9000 miles with minimal replacement. How long do these systems last? I understand batteries can go as long as 5 years, but what about an electric motor? I take it brushless is better for lasting longer?

Thanks.
 
pavers said:
Good thing it's tax refund time. At $2k, the investment will be returned in about 150-200 days of commuting (factoring <gas, and <car repairs), or about 9000 miles. My next hope would be that the equipment can last 9000 miles with minimal replacement. How long do these systems last? I understand batteries can go as long as 5 years, but what about an electric motor? I take it brushless is better for lasting longer?

That's a lot of miles. Only a few here have even done 5,000 on a single bike, but then again most of us are total mod whores and couldn't go a thousand miles without deciding something isn't satisfactory, even if it works like new. :p

Well, with a good brushed all you need to do is replace the brushes when they wear out. How long they last depends on the motor and whether or not you overvolted the thing. A brushless setup will cost more, but you'll never have to do this. Brushless controllers are still kind of touchy, though.

Considering that the biggest costs are the motor, bike, and batteries, I wouldn't worry too much. Though accounting for things going wrong and whatnot, I'd expect a return around 300 days, just to be safe.
 
Why not just get (or share) an apartment near work? I worked with a guy who did this for a while. He lived in Santa Barbara, about 90 mi from Los Angeles. He's been married for a while and his kids were grown, and he couldn't get a decent job in SB, so he got a cheap apartment with another guy at his work, worked like a dog all week, and went home on weekends. I hear a lot of Pols do this in Washington.
 
That's a thought, though the wife would kill me...I'm going to try to do a dry run (park my car at Great Falls and roll up the C&O canal to Frederick). This chops it down to 40 miles and lets me think it through before dropping the 1-2 grand. When gas hits $4 per gallon, I'll be spending about $280/month to commute to work PLUS $70/month avg in car repairs.

Anyway, I was looking at some of the gear from Falcon EV. 48Volt set-up with Lithium Ion batteries summing to either 20 or 30amp/hours depending on the available budget. Might get 20 amp/hour to start then add more batteries later if this is for me. Again, I can charge up at work, and fully expect to assist with long periods of pedaling so this seems to be a good fit assuming the numbers are right. I don't know what peoples opinions are of Falcon, but the guy I talked to there seemed pretty helpful.
 
Eh, there's bad history between the FalconEV people and members of this forum. Bad things were said. Not that that matters if you're getting good helpful advice.

Now, an important correction. You have your units all wrong. Battery capacity it a given voltage is measured in Amps*hours, not amps/hours. Energy capacity, which is what really determines range at a given speed, is measured in Watthours, which is Amphours*Volts. Your efficiency is in watthours/mile, where a lower number means less energy to travel one mile.

I'd also suggest a recumbent, trike, or recumbent trike. On an upright bike, that commute will make you walk pretty funny when you get to work, even with a good gel saddle. In a recumbent, your aerodynamic profile will be far better, and depending on the style, you could have much more room for batteries. The latter also applies for an upright trike. In fact, one member built an electric upright trike with 50miles of range using 6 marine lead-acid batteries. Heavy as hell, but relatively cheap!

Since speed isn't important to you, and it doesn't sound like you need to climb mountains, a crystalyte 400-series motor or similar would be a great fit. Light, powerful, and reliable. I'd also suggest you run it at 48v, which will give you much more power than a 36v setup while allowing you to avoid using more expensive 72v controllers.

To do 50 miles at 25mph, you'll need ~1400Wh of rated battery capacity, which would mean a 48v 30ah pack. That's assuming 450 watts of power to keep that speed, 80% motor efficiency, 80% depth of battery discharge (a good margin to keep the batteries healthy over the long run, and to account for other small losses), and assuming no pedaling. If you choose to pedal, you'll be able to add 150w of power (that's continuously). Doing so would reduce your required battery capacity to ~950Wh. That sits nicely with a 48v 20ah battery.

Sometimes gearing can be a problem. You'll need to gear your bike so that you can keep a comfortable pedaling cadence at 25mph. For whatever bike you choose, if you choose to pedal you will need to first ensure that you actually can keep up with the motor. A mild downhill where you can reach such a speed with a little extra pedaling would work. First see if you can get to 25mph, hold your speed there with brakes if the hill's too steep, and see if you can comfortably keep the freewheel engaged at that speed. If not, you either need taller gears, to go slower, or not pedal.

So, other than a comfortable recumbent or whatever bike you choose, I recommend a crystalyte 408 motor in a 26" wheel, a 36v 20a immediate start controller (you could use a more powerful 35a controller, but it'd add ~$100, and at that voltage and speed you'd only see a benefit on steep hills), half-twist throttle, and 48v lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) battery. That isn't the only way to go, but it's one of the more popular and well-tested routes. You'll have the choice of putting the motor in the front or rear wheel, so choose whichever works better for your bike setup. I highly recommend you look at the CycleAnalyst (http://ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml). It's the best ebike computer there is, and it'll tell you everything you need to know about your speed, distance traveled, battery status, power use, efficiency, and more. Also consider buying everything from ebikes.ca. They're the most knowledgeable and helpful sellers in the business, and they won't gouge you or sell you anything you don't need (cruise control, brake inhibits, etc). Their controllers are also modified to directly plug into the CycleAnalyst (which they invented, manufacture, and continue to update), which saves a lot of trouble.

For the battery, you have a few options. Ebikes.ca sells LiFePO4 batteries in 48v12Ah configurations, so two of them would provide 1150Wh. They're very well-made and well-documented, but they're also relatively expensive. There are also "duct tape" batteries. They're sold on Ebay by a fellow named Ping, who buys the cells and assembles them in China. They aren't as well-built as the stuff other places sell, but many here have had nothing but good experiences with them. Two (or three, if you don't pedal) of these would do: http://cgi.ebay.com/LiFePO4-Electric-Scooter-E-Bike-Li-Fe-Battery-48V-10AH_W0QQitemZ220226704324QQihZ012QQcategoryZ11332QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Any questions? If you have 'em, we'll answer 'em!
 
I would suggest going to 36v, and not 48. 36v and a c'lyte 405 will get you to around 21 MPH on a 20" wheel, and a bit faster on a 26". A 408 will go slower, but handle hills better.

48v will crank speed up a bit, and you will start to lose range to wind resistance. At 36v, you will be able to pack in more amps for the same weight.

Consider a geared hub ( BMC, Puma, Heinzmann, eZee, etc ) instead of a c'lyte ... more efficiency.

Another option is to put the hub on a trailer, and then stack on big RV sealed lead-acids ... a cheap but heavy way to get more amp-hours.
 
I would suggest going to 36v, and not 48. 36v and a c'lyte 405 will get you to around 21 MPH on a 20" wheel, and a bit faster on a 26". A 408 will go slower, but handle hills better.

There'll be about 1-5% difference in speed and efficiency between a 405 at 36v and a 408 at 48v in a 26" wheel. However, the 408 will have about 25% more thrust. It'll perform much better accelerating and climbing hills.

At 36v, you will be able to pack in more amps for the same weight.

...Meaning that each amp is less energetic. To output the same power, the lower voltage battery will have to produce more amps. Total energy capacity, in watt-hours, will be the same. At the same power draw, range will be the same between two batteries of different voltage but equal watt-hours, assuming speed and efficiency are the same.

Consider a geared hub ( BMC, Puma, Heinzmann, eZee, etc ) instead of a c'lyte ... more efficiency.

A very good suggestion. Unfortunately, I am of no use discussing geared setups. :oops:

Another option is to put the hub on a trailer, and then stack on big RV sealed lead-acids ... a cheap but heavy way to get more amp-hours.

Another very good suggestion. Do a search for "trailer" and you can find lots of ideas. Depending on the trailer design, you can put the motor there too, so that all it would take to revert to a normal bike is unhitching the trailer and disconnecting the throttle and Cycleanalyst wires.

One disadvantage of both the trailer and the trike is that depending on where you work, it might complicate parking.

Also, the trike I mentioned: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3542. It's heavy, but the thing fits the bill. :mrgreen:
 
To give you some perspective on how challenging this could be: Occassionally I'll commute to work on my c-lyte 5304 ebike. It's a ~15.5 mile trip each way through the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex:

http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/West-Plano-to-Dallas-TX

I've optimized the route over time to avoid traffic as much as possible (very difficult in Dallas!). Still, between 4-7pm some of the roads are insane.

I've tried running at ~64V with a 40 amp controller, using a 1.5KWh A123 battery configured as 6 separate packs (18S10P - 2 packs in the front, 4 in the rear). I can *just* make it to work and back without charging using this configuration. With 6 packs/180 cells, the bike was so heavy that acceleration and power usage where noticeably degraded. (But man, the power!!) I went back to running with 4 packs/120 cells at ~87V and charging at work.

Each trip was an adventure. But there's no way I could do it every day AND get productive work done, the trip just took too much out of me. These days, I only ebike to my local light rail station (6 miles each way -- MUCH less stressful).
 
I've tried... using a 1.5KWh A123 battery... I can *just* make it to work and back without charging using this configuration.

How fast were you going? 50Wh/mile means you're doing something like 35mph-40mph. That *is* a very very challenging commute at that speed.
 
lazarus2405 said:
How fast were you going? 50Wh/mile means you're doing something like 35mph-40mph. That *is* a very very challenging commute at that speed.
Lotta traffic and hilly. Check out his map :(
 
Up to 20mph on the bike paths, and around 30-33mph on open roads. Peak speed is 38mph. There are a lot of starts and stops due to lights, which don't help.
 
Hi all
I found you while searching for the duct tape thread(I found it).
If I can put in my opinion speeking as somone who rides a recumbent trike with a geared drive system, though not hub I went down the route of the USPD or electrodrive or lashout, I have an external motor connected to the rear hub via chain drive with the sprocket for the wheel attached via the disk mounting bolts, would not sute everyone but I like it.This is powered by a 48v 20ah "duct tape" battery.
the gearing for the pedels was increased to allow me to keep up with the higher speeds.
I get a max crusing speed of 25mph with a cadence( rpm of the peddles) of 60 maybe a bit more if I push it.
Current draw as for all cycles at the start is anything up to 30 amps though peddeling first and applying the throttle gradualy reduces the amp draw spike drasticly.
current draw at max crusing speed no peddeling 17amps peddeling 14amps
at a reduced crusing speed of 20mph the draw is 10amps no peddeling 6 peddeling.
I am going on a long journey in a while so have been doing range tests(all at top crusing speed).
1: local stuff lots of starts and stops with not a lot of pedelling distance 18 miles.
2: first "long" distance (for me) run same way of peddeling very little 28 miles (the journey was an out back turn round when I liked so I kept an eye on the amp/hour gauge)

I will follow up with some distances at lower speeds and with peddeling as I do them.

I am also adding an extra battery pack to the setup to make it a 48v 30ah setup.
 
dude y don't you just get a petrol engine bicycle kit? range is not a factor with those.

50 mile commute is not well suited for an electric bike. or get a solar powered trailer :mrgreen:
 
hi all
monster two things not related.
can you post or pm me with the stats on your cycle wheelsize,max speed , range both at max speed and a slower mor economic speed if you do that. I ask as a friend ha ordered a system like yours.

putting a petrol engine onto a bike defeats the object of the forum and in tv I'm the law wants you to have a licence road tax and everything else, as for 50 mile commute 100 round trip being too much for ebikes how many can do 50 or close and think with a bigger battery could.i talked before about duct tape batteries I have been on to the vendor and he does a quick charger putting out 5 amps.
I give an example:-
a 48v 30ah DT battery system fitted to a recumbent trike(for comfort) can Handel 50 miles
the pack would be made of 2x48v 15ah batteries connected in paraellel with a schottky diode .
about 25 ah will be used
on arival at destination put batteries on charge and in less than 3 hours the batteries will be ready for the return trip.
 
i have a 1092wh pack (if i run fully loaded) and it will get me about 35 miles (with pedaling) at 25mph. i feel this pack is about on the limit of weight that you would want to put on a bike. i use NiCd cells, if you went for more expensive battery technology you could push it a bit more but i think you are really on the limits of what an ebike can do here. i would get a motor bike for 50 miles or move closer to work. i usually run only half the pack so i can lift it and brake faster.

you could put a petrol kit and a front hub motor on the same bike. that way you could "go noisy" when you are away from traffic and then return to stealth mode when you see cars. is there much traffic on your commute?
 
pavers said:
I may opt...
You got the right idea, you're halfway there.

Optibike claims it can do this distance
If you have $0.15 in your pocket, you can fill up the Optibike and ride for 50 miles.
http://www.optibike.com/
It's only money.

Isn't there a hero amongst us that will pick up the gauntlet that has been thrown in challenge?


I'd say a workalike BB drive would be the best configuration to get the most miles/Wh & should meet the target when hi on Lithium.
 
If I needed that much range I would get a bike trailer and use high capacity batteties. You could carry 6 large 12v batteries and have them running at 36v and use an efficient geared hub and I would think it would work nicely. The other way would be to build a adult trike and you could carry a lot of batteries and even use golfcart motors/parts if you had the time to engineer it. The only other way would be to mount a gas engine and make a hybrid.
 
The only other way ...

As in the only other way you can think of. Doesn't mean that it's the only or best remaining option.

But yes, as we've said, trikes and trailers are good choices for a lot of range on the cheap.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3542
 
At 25mph AVERAGE, it will take 2 hours to do 50 miles. To average 25mph on normal roads you'll need to cruise at 30 or more. You said paths - it's not safe to ride at 30mph on paths in the dark.

2 hours x 2 = 4 HOURS. That's half a days work. :shock:

50 miles is too far for an ebike. This is motorbike range. In fact, this is too far to commute IMO - get a new job or a new house :cry:

Think about this. You're 45 miles from home, it's dark, it's pissing down rain (you'll be getting home from work at 7:30pm..) and your bike is broken/battery flat. You're stuffed. Better hope Roadside assistance will do bikes, cause it won't fit in a taxi..

Suitable transport is the key. This is a job for an ICE.
 
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