A TC100 Project!

[dotrick]

Hello,

Let's take a look on my new motor!

Very long time to find the freewheel (It's a BMX freewheel) and the tensioner! I had to change the chain too!

 

[mvly]

Sweet!

Let us know how it performs.

 

[dotrick]

It works!

First ride this week and 63Kph (GPS). I'm very happy!
Thank you to Justin, he helped me for the settings!

Now, I have to close the battery pack and improve the controller fixation!

 

[wesnewell]

Only 63kph on 24s3p lipo. That doesn't sound right.

 

[dotrick]

Only 63kph on 24s3p lipo. That doesn't sound right.

It was my first test. Maybe the current limit was too low... Maybe my tires were not enought inflate...

I will do a new test next week!

 

[MadRhino]

Welcome to a new ebiker in Montreal.
Your top speed should be much higher with this motor running 24s
Unplug the CA and test it again, this will tell you if it is the CA setting that you have to play with.
If it is riding the same speed, check 2 other possible causes:
-Your controller or throttle doesn't reach full throttle.
-Your hall-phase combo is on a false positive, meaning it runs but it is not the perfect combination.

PS: Don't go speeding off road with this bike, you will kill it or worse it will kill you.

 

[dotrick]

Welcome to a new ebiker in Montreal.

Thank you!

Your top speed should be much higher with this motor running 24s
Unplug the CA and test it again

I did a new test tonight, the top speed is about 70kph. I didn't do your test but the max current I read on the CA was 36A... I would like to see 40A.. :?

If it is riding the same speed, check 2 other possible causes:
-Your controller or throttle doesn't reach full throttle.

I need to unplug the CA... I think you are right... But I have to unplug many wires! :?

-Your hall-phase combo is on a false positive, meaning it runs but it is not the perfect combination.

Can you explain me because I don't understand...

I did a test in my garage : Throttle full and rear wheel free (no contact with ground). The top speed is 120kph. The rear wheel turns with jerky way ( I hope you will understand me... )

 

[jansevr]

nice bike and motor!

when you say the wheel turns in a jerky way, this is what mad rhino was talking about a false positive. taken from the endless-sphere wiki:

Alan B: "The way I approached it is to analyze which wires were easy to change (the phase wiring is easy to switch on my setup) and which were hard (the hall sensors are small fragile difficult to swap pins). So I want to minimize the switching of the tiny hall wire pins.
Assuming the +5 and ground of the hall wires are correct that leaves the three hall signals to play with. Only two combinations of those three wires are necessary to explore. One corresponds to forward rotation and one to reverse. We don't know which direction corresponds to which wire configuration so we may have to try both. The two combinations differ by the switching of one pair of wires. For each directional hall setup we have to try all combinations of the phase wires of which there are six. If none of those runs forward smoothly at low current then we have to swap one pair of hall sensor wires and again try the six phase combos. Twelve to test. Done."

the proper combination will run completely smooth with no jerky motions and hardly any noise all the way to about 120kph. also check the amp draw under no load when you think you have the proper combination - it should be relatively low (around 5-10 amps). if you get a combination that does this but in reverse you should be able to just swap 2 of the phase wires. good luck! everyone that builds an ebike has to deal with this and there is not much of an easier way around it unfortunately. you should hopefully be up and running in no time and you'll see what you were missing with the false positive!

 

[MadRhino]

Yep, Jansevr answered right.
Now you know the no-load top speed of your motor running 24s is 120 Kmh. It should be easy to reach 100 Kmh riding, that is if you set the proper hall-phase combo, and feed enough Amps to power it.

Then I noticed that you are using a lot of batteries for a low total of capacity. That means you have many connections and all of them has to be perfectly secure. A jerky running usually comes from a bad hall-phase combo, but could also be caused by a weak battery connection. Both situations can fry your controller eventually, so you have to make sure.

 

[dotrick]

nice bike and motor!

Thank you!

the proper combination will run completely smooth with no jerky motions and hardly any noise all the way to about 120kph. also check the amp draw under no load when you think you have the proper combination - it should be relatively low (around 5-10 amps). if you get a combination that does this but in reverse you should be able to just swap 2 of the phase wires. good luck!

I tried 12 configurations. I found 2 configurations ( the original and the original in reverse mode). But i'm not sure... I did a video : http://youtu.be/BL3dX_EzwhE What do you think about the sound of the motor for this configuration?

And...I found 2 another configuration with a top speed (no-load) of 230kph

But no torque!

Then I noticed that you are using a lot of batteries for a low total of capacity. That means you have many connections and all of them has to be perfectly secure. A jerky running usually comes from a bad hall-phase combo, but could also be caused by a weak battery connection. Both situations can fry your controller eventually, so you have to make sure.

Not at all!

I think, i will made a pack because there are too many wires for power and too many wires for each cells. If I do this, my battery pack will be smaller. My connections to my BMS more secure! Actually, I didn't put the BMS on yet ...

 

[jansevr]

the motor seems to be running pretty well, a bit rough to start off though. what is the no load amps? i run my crystalyte sensorless and it acts similar from a stop but if you're moving forward at all its not a problem. have you taken it for another ride? under load is the throttle smooth throughout acceleration?

i'm still surprised that the top speed would be 70kmh especially considering the no load speed is 120kmh. even at only 36A on 24s lipo thats around 3600w which should be enough for closer to 80kmh. one thing that you can try doing is modifying the shunt in your controller to allow more amps to pass through. here is a link to the best method:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31643

basically what you want to do is wrap some very thin copper wire around the shunt (you probably only have 2 legs as opposed to the 4 in the picture).

then add a small amount of solder over the wire.

then because you modified the shunt you will need to figure out the actual shunt value and adjust this in your CA. without having the proper value your CA is not calibrated to read your amps/watts correctly. a good place to start would be half of what it is set for. (i.e if it was 2.0 mOhm try 1.0 mOhm to start). if you have a charger that measures the AH that is put into your battery this will also be useful in calibrating your actual shunt value.

go for a ride for a km or two. then check your CA and write down your measure AH. now charge the batteries and take the measured AH (from your CA) and divide it by the actual AH (measure by your charger). then multiply this number by your shunt value (according to your CA).

for example if your CA says you used 500mah and your charger says you used 1000mah and your shunt value is 2 mOhm... 500/1000 = .5 then take .5 x 2 mOhm = 1 mOhm. your new shunt value is then 1 mOhm.

 

[dotrick]

what is the no load amps?

At 50kph (no load) 140W 86V 1.6A
At 80kph (no load) 270W 85V 3.2A
At 100kph (no load) 370W 84V 4.4A
I will use this measure to re-calibrate Rshunt after modification. :wink:

have you taken it for another ride? under load is the throttle smooth throughout acceleration?

No ride. My battery is empty and i have a problem with 3 cells. I have to exchange them before another ride.
But I had to adjust the PID regulation. Now it's better, not perfect but better!

i'm still surprised that the top speed would be 70kmh especially considering the no load speed is 120kmh. even at only 36A on 24s lipo thats around 3600w which should be enough for closer to 80kmh. one thing that you can try doing is modifying the shunt in your controller to allow more amps to pass through.

No problem, I will do that. I will take the no-load measures for recalibrate Rshunt. I will check with an ampermeter.

I did some calculations about the power vs kph for an ebike.
Mass of ebike with me : m=100Kg
Drag coef : cx=0,90
Drag area : S=0,46m2
Rolling resistance : Cr=0,013
Controller efficiency : 0,8
Battery Voltage : 88V

Speed - Power output - Power input - Ibat

• 50kph - 0,9Kw - 1,1Kw - 13A
  60kph - 1,5Kw - 1,8Kw - 21A
  70kph - 2,3Kw - 2,9Kw - 33A
  80kph - 3,3Kw - 4,1Kw - 47A
  90kph - 4,6Kw - 5,8Kw - 66A
  100kph - 6,2Kw - 7,8Kw - 89A
  110kph - 8,2Kw - 10,3Kw - 117A
  120kph - 10,6Kw - 13,3Kw - 151A

After these calculations, I think my top speed is normal with a 36A limitation. No?

 

[dotrick]

News!!!

First ride today from my home to my work! But... not enough battery I rode for about 4km...

I did some modifications: I increased the current from 36A to 47A. (Rshunt was 2.24mohm and now it is 1.7mohm)

I will do a new top speed test this week... With the value of 47A (Ibat), I think I Will have a top speed of 80 Kph...

 

[neptronix]

You need way more current. If it isn't getting warm or throwing you off the back, you ain't put enough power in it yet... ;]

 

[mvly]

Damn I need this motor to sustain 40mph without burning. I might have to give in and make the upgrade...

As of now I have 24s30Ah battery and will burn out the current motor if I try to sustain 40mph until the battery is empty. This will allow me to make the trip without burning out.

 

[dotrick]

You need way more current. If it isn't getting warm or throwing you off the back, you ain't put enough power in it yet... ;]

What? What does it means? I'm not a chor boy!
You want a lot of power? I can do it! :wink:
...Yes, you're right. I would like much power but my controller need some modifications to do that. I will do that later!

Damn I need this motor to sustain 40mph without burning. I might have to give in and make the upgrade...

I did a ride 15-10 min full power (maybe 3kW - before modification of rshunt). And I checked my motor and my controller and nothing, cold...Now I have 4.5Kw and I think, it's not a problem for my motor. :lol:

 

[pchen92]

You should add some 6s 5Ah to increase your battery capacity and the range of your bike. Also you can run more Amps as you'd get more Ah. This motor is a fast winding and it needs high current to become powerful and efficient (> 60A)

 

[dotrick]

You should add some 6s 5Ah to increase your battery capacity and the range of your bike. Also you can run more Amps as you'd get more Ah. This motor is a fast winding and it needs high current to become powerful and efficient (> 60A)

ooh un parisien! Je suis Nantais expatrié à Montréal! :wink:
Yes, I know... I will do that! I have to choose... BMS or More Ah... Look at the picture. :?

I'll probably order 8 Turnigy 3S -2.2Ah (24S-2.2Ah) to do a configuration 24S4P - 800Wh but without BMS...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have some difficulties to adjust the throttle regulation on the Cycle Analyst. It's very incomfortable to ride at a constant speed... I tried many configurations and the better is throttle "Pass thru ". The speed is never constant.

Throttle In --> Control mode --> Pass thru ( I tried Amps, Watts and kph...) no success

Throttle out --> Up Ramp 1.00 Sec / Volt
Throttle out --> Down Ramp 0.25 Sec / Volt
Throttle out --> Fast Ramp 0.30 Sec / Volt
Throttle out --> Fast threshold 5.00 Amps

Speeed Lim --> IntSGain 20
Speeed Lim --> PSGain 0.10 V/kph
Speeed Lim --> DSGain 0

Any advice for me?
Anyone can give me his parameters to try with my ebike?

Thank you!

 

[dotrick]

i'm still surprised that the top speed would be 70kmh especially considering the no load speed is 120kmh. even at only 36A on 24s lipo thats around 3600w which should be enough for closer to 80kmh.

New test tonight and my new top speed is 83.5Kph. It's fast, but I think If the road is more longer i will go more faster. I did the test with my battery full charge @100V. My current limit is 48A. My tires inflate to 65 psi. Now, I have to increase the current because the torque is not enought for me. I would like to do wheelie... :wink:

Note: The temperature of the motor and the controller were probably under 40DegC. The temperature outside was about 10DegC.

 

[wojtek]

is it high speed or high torque version please?

 

[dotrick]

is it high speed or high torque version please?

The features are :
- TC100 for 100kph - High speed
- TC80 for 80Kph - High torque

I do not have the spec sheet for TC80. I have only TC100 and TC65.
I checked the efficiency vs Kph for TC100 vs TC65 with 26" Wheel.

And the originals datasheets...
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71224521/TC100kph-72V-100A.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71224521/TC65kph_72V-98A.JPG

 

[John in CR]

Current limiting is what is keeping your speed relatively low for that voltage. Achieving only 70% of no-load speed will result in relatively poor efficiency if you're really going to ride at 80+kph. If nothing gets too hot, under any of your riding conditions, then you'll have a nice smooth power response. That motor would perform worlds better in a 20" wheel, but the effects of gearing lower will be lost on most. With a 26" wheel 20s would be a far better voltage, but that fact is lost on most people too. If you run into heat problems as you increase the current, then lowering the voltage will be a good solution, because the high voltage puts you running in the lower range of efficiency a greater portion of the time.

John

 

[dotrick]

I rode 200km. My average speed is about 35kph. I set the speed limit to 40kph to economize my battery. Now, I removed all the limits (current and speed) in the CA. I try not to go over 45-50kph. I ride more smoothy and my consumption is the same 20-22Wh/km.

... With a 26" wheel 20s would be a far better voltage

I will do a test... It's easier to remove a battery than adding it (for my setup ) And it's better for my FETs 4110...

 

[dotrick]

Last week, I replaced my tires for a set of "crazy bob" by Schwalbe.

I'm very surprised of my new consumption!!! Before I had an average of 22Wh/Km (average of 32kph). Now, I have an average of 18Wh/Km (-20%)

No need more Ah with my new tires!!! Good news!

 

[Doctorbass]

Tes tests sont très intéressants dotrick!

Merci.

Doc