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Alternator Motor - Thee itch I need to scratch

It's nice to see what people are planing. I'd like to see a modified bike controller to serve as a controller for such seperate excited motors. The current limit circuit should be matched with the new exctitation current circuit. I thought some time about such a circuit. I'm willing to help someone who would like to develop this. First, one has to understand how the two current limiters of an Infineon controller works, to find an Interface. There should be some sort of "loop back" or current measurement in the Infineons, which could serve as this.

The higher the rpm, the lower the excitation current should be, the higher the phase current, the higher the excitation current should be. Is that right?

If so, one could just mix a tachometer voltage with the current measurement voltage (over a potentiometer or risistor voltage devider) to get a field/excitation voltage signal. This signal could then go into a PWM that feeds the excitation coils in the rotor.

Besides your thoughts about building a PM Rotor for these alternators, one should also think about double excitation, to get the most out of it.

About the speaker magnets: I know from a friend who alsways tried to squirt out the most of bass car hifi speakers, that many speaker magnets loose their field quickly if they get hot. Or do they only serve as field conductor? Maybe thats not the best solution. Also the field orientation looks weird.
 
Besides your thoughts about building a PM Rotor for these alternators, one should also think about double excitation, to get the most out of it.
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What do you mean by this? Build a PM magnet rotor but still utilize an excitation coil to increase the field strength produced by the PM magnets? Can that be done?

The way I understand it, the excitation coil in a traditional alternator rotor works by actually magnetizing either side of of the 'claw'. This works because the rotor is split into north/south halves and the excitation coil magnetizes these halves when power is applied. If you were to build a PM magnet rotor for the alternator you'd do exactly as LFP stated back at the start of this thread and use straight through bars. In other words no halves for a excitation coil to power - not easily anyway. I guess you could wrap the coils around the magnets themselves (like a normal stator but the stator teeth are replaced by magnets) but this introduces a great degree of complexity not to mention the need for some serious cooling because the magnets will get super hot and the last thing you want is to ruin a set of expensive magnets.

That been said even a a small increase in magnet field strength may be worth it given the electronic gearing it may provide.

I also could be talking straight out my own a** because I'm new to this.

Cheers,

- Matt
 
HI DEE JAY IAM WORKING ON AN ALTERNATOR CONTROLLED BY AN ESC MYSELF. SO FAR I BURNT UP TWO LOW COAST CONTRLOLLERS . ONE IN TRYING TO PROGRAM IT WHILE CONNETED TO A 24 GROUP LEAD ACID BATTERY .THE CONTROLLER GETS HOT WHILE PROGRAMMING I FOUND USING MY 15 AMP CAR BATTERY CHARGER STOPPED THAT FROM HAPPENING. THE OTHER IWAS CHANGING FROM 12VOLTS TO 24 VOLTS BACK AND FORTH AND LEFT THE PROGRAM ON 12V WHEN I WENT TO 24V. ANYWAY I FINALLY GOT IT GOING . I USE A 1.82 OHM IGNITION COIL RESISTOR IN SERIES WITH THE FIELD TO KEEP THE FIELD CURRENT DOWN TO 2.4 AMP I CHANGED THE STATOR FROM WYE TO DELTA CUZ AFTER TRYING ALL THE PROGRAMMING SETTING THE SENSORLESS CONTROLLER WOULD SPIN IT THEN SHUT DOWN I FIGUERED THE THE VOLTS/HZ WERE NOT ANYTHING THE CONTROLLER COULD RECOGNIZE. THAT DID IT I BOUGHT A TACHOMETER. MY SPEED RANGE IS FROM 600RPM TO 2800 RPM .THE MOTOR GETS HOT THE CONTROLLER STAYS COOL AND I CAN NOT STALL THE ALTERNATOR BY PUSHING A 2"BY4" Against the pulley.(NOT SO HIGH TECH ) .I WILL TRY TO ATTACH A PICTURE. GOOD LUGK HAVE FUN
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OK. Question time. :lol: What ESC did you end up using ?? I have been looking at HK's 190A clone of the Castle controller. Castle is $300.00 HK is $30.00 ?? I won't be drawing 190A ? , so, figured it would also be good to test some other projects.

The ignition coil resistor. Is that one of those wire wound coils set in the ceramic base, that you can screw to the firewall of a vehicle ??

I am NOT electronically inclined, so, I need to be sure what you actually have.

The photo is blurry, and, my monitor screen is small, along with weak eyes. :lol: :lol:

Did you use hall sensors, or, is that why you only get rotation in Delta ??

Is it possible you have rotation in the wrong direction, so, the fan is not sending enough air through the case, causing the hot motor case ??

I have an alternator converted to PM, and, a smaller one non-converted, just waiting to be messed with. Also, have a LARGE one, waiting to be messed with.

This the easiest set up for me to understand what you did. I just need verification of the parts you used. I can't afford too many smoke tests. :lol: :lol: Thanks for posting. 8)
 
HI HAROLD. YES I USED A HK190 THE PROGRAM SETTINGS ARE 1SHORT 2LONG25.9V/2SHORT3LONGHARD START/2SHORT1LONGAUTO THROTTLE/3SHORT1LONG/4SHORT2LONGCCW ROTATION/4SHORT4LONGHARD CUTOFF/5SHORT3LONG15 DEGREES/6SHORT 2LONG16KHZ.YES THAT IS THE KIND OF RESISTOR LIKE I TOLD THE GUY AT THE AUTO PARTS STORE WHEN I SHOCK IT NEAR MY EAR SOUNDS LIKE ABOUT 25WATTS.IT IS SENSORLESS AND CHAGING IT TO DELTA WAS JUST THE LAST ACT OF DESPARATION.THE ROTATION IS COUNTER CLOCKWISE SO IT WILL DRAW AIR INTO THE ALTERNATOR.THE ALTERNATOR I USED A FRIEND FROM WORK GOT ME BRAND NEW FROM CHINA THE WYE WAS PRETTY EASY TO TAKE APART USING A HAIR DRYER TO SOFTEN THE VARNISH.I CALLED ALL THE NEW WIRES X2 AND THEN JUST STARTED CHECKING CONTINUITY TO THE OTHER WIRES . CALLING THE OLD WIRE ON THE RIGHT X1PHASE A.IF LOOKING AT A THREE PHASE TRANSFORMER DIAGRAM MAKES SENSE TO YOU .YOU JUST FALLOW THAT PATNER FOR X2 OF PHASEA GOESTOX1OF PHASEB AND THE MIDDLE TERMINAL(WIRE) OUT.I HAD TO USE SOME AMPLIFICATION TO HEAR THE TONES TELEPONE PICKUP TO A PA IN AN OLD RADIO TO HEAR THE TONES .THE SOUND SEEMS LOADER ON THE Y TUBE VIDEOS I HAVE SEEN ON PROGRAMMING. I DO NOT KNOW IF THAT IS BECAUSE IAM USING A LANTERN BATTERY AS A UBEC TOTHE SERVO TESTER IAM USING AS A TROTTLE.THIS IS ONE NEWBEE HELPING ANOTHER.HOPE SOME OF THE FOLKS WITH MORE EXPERIENCE WITH THE DEVICES WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WILL SAY SOMETHING IF I AM LEADING YOU WRONG.HERES ANOTHER PICTUE GOOD LUCK. IAM GOING TO ISOLATE BOTH SLIP RIG BRUSHS FROM GROUND ONE OF MY ELECTRIC MOTOR CYCLES JUMPED FORWARD BROKE TWO OF MY TOES THEN CLIMBED THE GARAGE DOOR ONCE .KILL SWITCHS AND ISOLATE FROM GROUND.
 
Thanks for that info and new photo, Dave. Makes sense now. Just got my crate of stuff from the USA, and, have a Kawasaki Alternator to play with, before stepping up to auto alternators. :) :)
 
HI HAROLD IN CR. I HAVE BEEN DOING SOME RESEARCH AND I THINK YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT THE ROTATION MIGHT BE WRONG THE ALTERNATOR IS A DELCO 10DN AND ACCORDING TO SOME OF THE SPECS I HAVE SEEN THE ROTATION SHOULD BE CW. DRAWING AIR IN FROM THE DIODE AND EXHAUSTING IT OUT THE PULLEY END.THANKS YOU HELPED ME .
 
All of the alternators I've seen so far have the fan on them designed to fling air out away from the fan radially, which then sucks air into the fan from inside the alternator. So if the inlet vents on the alternator are on the non-pulley face, or on the outer circumference of the main casing, that's where the air will source from to flow thru the inside of the alternator.

I used this same airflow method by using an alternator fan on a treadmill motor, for CrazyBike2's first middrive setup, and it greatly cooled the motor, when the motor could be kept to higher speeds (at least a thousand RPM or more).
 
I'm thinking of replacing the stock fan on my build with something a bit more refined (and hopefully effective). It's not going to be sitting inside a hot engine bay or be directly beside (or near) a large heating element. So I figure a conventional and more powerful fan type blade would be more effective.
 
You will want a radial fan, still, like a squirrelcage type, enclosed at the end away from the alternator, so it sucks air thru the motor.

If you use a "propeller" type fan, it's not going to move as much air especially for the power you put thru it, when you have flow restrictions and turbulence like in this sort of setup.


I'm still not sure exactly why the alternator fans are designed the way they are, with their asymmetric blades, etc., rather than using a "pure" squirrelcage, but the approach does work, is mechanically simple to manufacture, and strong/durable at very high speeds. I used one on my treadmill motor mostly because it did move so much air compared to other solutions (and it happened to be a perfect fit for the motor shaft).
 
There is also another fan inside the case, on the rear mounted claw. I am going to try to use it, as well as the front fan. I'm thinking the internal fan stirs the stagnant air inside the case, so it mixes with the air moving through the case.
 
Thanks for the info now I have a choice to make . I CAN REVERSE THE ROTATION EITHER BY SWAPPING TWO OF THE PHASE WIRES GOING TO THE MOTOR OR RE PROGRAMMING THE ESC AND THE WAY IT GETS WARM DRING PROGRAMMING EVEN WITH A LOW CURRENT SOURCE IS SCARY BUT IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO I THINK MAYBE. HAVING FUN
 
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