Any vendor that supplies adequate information?

[MikeSSS]

A friend got a Luna ebike conversion kit and some other stuff. No instructions were provided for the kit.

Is there any vendor that supplies adequate instructions and information for the products they sell?

Thanks,

Mike S

 

[dogman dan]

How do you define adequate? An on line installation manual? A live person on CS? Information how to hack the controller programming? A schematic allowing competitors to know proprietary information?

 

[MikeSSS]

Definition? ?? Definition is not required, adequate information ... is, well, adequate to use the product safely, for a first time user, who is unfamiliar with the technology. This is not rocket science, it is simple stuff, it is easy to understand, that is ... the concept of adequate instructions or information.

Not providing adequate information, in the case of something dangerous, like an ebike kit or battery, is something called nonfeasance.

Get it?

 

[Ykick]

Novice self-assembly isn’t for everyone. There’ll be people who might be better off buying a Pedego or some other turn-key eBike.

What we do with these supplies is often so varied that explicit instructions often fail or worse, mislead someone into doing something against logical convention.

There’s certainly room for improvement but until the “numbers” dictate otherwise, I don’t expect much to change with regard to printed instructions.

That said, what kit is your friend working with? I think there’s some pretty detailed build logs with Luna and similar stuff on another discussion forum:

http://electricbike.com/forum/forum/builds

 

[aroundqube]

A bit dated , but I think you will get the idea https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=60790

 

[MadRhino]

Yep, I believe that you have found here, the website where to find all adequate (and some dangerous) informations. Especially if you are building from a kit, that is pretty easy to figure out. You will even find some ways to build from recycled parts, to build a whole new bike from scratch and of course, how to build crazy illegal death machines.

Nevertheless, anything sold here in Canada is required by law to have adequate instructions and warnings in both English and French. Most companies now do supply instructions in 4 languages. This should be common practice globally, with all the free trade agreements and ever growing international commerce.

 

[LewTwo]

Most companies now do supply instructions in 4 languages.

Problem with 4 languages is they tend to make the print 1/4 the size. ...

 

[e-beach]

Get it!

......

Well, Grin seems to have a lot of information on their site. http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info.html

 

[spinningmagnets]

Luna needs to "up their game" when it comes to providing information to the new buyer...I will do what I can to prod them. Thanks for the input.

 

[dogman dan]

Hey bro,, If you didn't know, I spend 40-50 hours a week on an on line chat personally providing what we think is mighty damn adequate information for E-Bikekit, E trike kit, and Liberty Trike websites. All part of Electric Bike Technologies.

On line manual, yup. long FAQ page,, yup. Guy you can talk to if you are too dumb to find those pages,, yup. give you a call and spend an hour walking you through the install step by step. Yup.

But it's not adequate for some,,,,

So that's why I wanted you to define adequate. Some guys want enough information to make a copy of the product,, and no,, I don't have all that information for ya.

 

[motomech]

Definition? ?? Definition is not required, adequate information ... is, well, adequate to use the product safely, for a first time user, who is unfamiliar with the technology. This is not rocket science, it is simple stuff, it is easy to understand, that is ... the concept of adequate instructions or information.

Not providing adequate information, in the case of something dangerous, like an ebike kit or battery, is something called nonfeasance.

Get it?

Why didn't you help your "friend"?
You certainly have received "adequate" info here.
Here, Dman, D8veh, myself and others spent quite a bit of time w/ you.
Perhaps you don't remember, given that you never came back or said thanks.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82365

 

[MikeSSS]

At least this topic got some discussion going about vendors supplying instructions.

My reply to Dogman Dan was too sharp and mildly insulting, DD I apologize for that. Also, I would like to thank you for all the time and valuable service you provide to ebike users. Especially, I'd like to thank DD for posting the details of his long tail bike builds, great detail, photos and results. Also thanks to others who have provided help and advice.

Back to instructions provided with parts and kits. It is not unreasonable to expect adequate instructions to be provided.

On the other hand, if a vendor provides instructions, those instructions could potentially be used against that vendor, in legal proceedings. Failure to provide instructions can also be used against the vendor in similar proceedings. The vendor has to take the path of least risk. Perhaps not providing instructions is that path of least risk. Perhaps not.

Vendors buy parts and kits for resale. The products they buy change from time to time and the vendor may not be aware of the changes. For that reason, instructions based on previous products may not be accurate for newly arrived products, thus causing potential problems for both the end user and the vendor. Placing the burden of finding instructions on the end user, sort of shifts the task and liability of providing instructions from the vendor. Sort of. If I were a vendor, I'd like to think that I'd provide adequate instructions, but I'm pretty lazy, so probably I'd take the same path Luna takes. Besides that, vendors do not have the time or resources to test products they receive, especially to repeat test looking for potential changes.

The kit that Luna supplied was very good to excellent. One watt meter / battery gauge had the decal inverted so it showed input and output on the wrong sides of the meter, but the connectors, male and female, were on the correct wires, there were instructions for the watt meters. The torque arms supplied were not correct, the flat spacing on the axle holes was too large for the axle flats on the hub motor kit. No instructions were provided for the torque arms. Only the watt meters had instructions and the one watt meter we used failed at close to 8 miles of riding.

If I were to buy a kit, I'd probably buy from Luna, or possibly not, reasons for not would be to get the motor windings that I'd like. The connectors on the Luna kit were excellent, that is a big plus for Luna. Battery? The battery I got from Luna meets all my expectations.

About me, BS in engineering from The University of Texas at Austin, MS in engineering from The University of Texas at San Antonio, member of Mensa, admirer of Texas A&M.

By the way, I did help my friend. His ebike conversion is up and running.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Reguarding Luna and inadequate information: MikeSSS is absolutely correct. Luna has absolutely failed to meet the minimum standard for products sold in the US. If we do not demand consumer rights we will become one of the countries that does not have them. Virtually every one of the hundreds of products I have purchased includes written user instructions AND backup instruction manuals on the internet. Not once has anyone sold me a blender, battery charger, drill, or anything else that has moving parts without giving me information about what I bought. Except Luna. Only Luna tells me to "go look" when I ask for information. For instance, they sold me a data display to go with my hub kit. It has no name or numbers on it, After I explained this to them they emailed back and asked which display I had. When I repeated that I could not identify it, they suggested that I go look for vidios. I did. Non of them apply to my set-up. BTW the torque arm they sold me (without instructions) with my kit failed on the second ride, and dumped my front wheel in a busy intersection. It was the wrong size, made of thin, soft metal, and should have never been sent to me by Luna. Also, look at the reviews on their site. Arn't you wondering where all the critical reviews of their products got to?

 

[JohnT818]

...Electric Bike Technologies.

On line manual, yup. long FAQ page,, yup. Guy you can talk to if you are too dumb to find those pages,, yup. give you a call and spend an hour walking you through the install step by step. Yup.

Years ago, I picked one of their kits for my first conversion, mainly because of their instructions and customer support. I didn't want to ask for help, but if I needed it, I wanted to be sure I could get it. I'm sure it's even better now that Dan's involved!

 

[spinningmagnets]

Luna has an entire forum devoted to answering the questions of new Luna customers. Also, I seem to remember quite a few youtube videos being provided to help new customers getting their kit going. They seem to have quite a few employees providing email support for answering questions too.

They really need to list these resources on a sheet of paper for their new customers, packed into every box of kit or battery pack they sell. I know they've only been doing this for a year, but listing the location of their many resources is really the minimum that a company should start out doing. Everyone who is unable to find enough resources to help them with their new Luna kit should go to the Luna forum and complain. This is really unacceptable.

Captain Chaos, you may only have one post when I wrote this, but...you are absolutely correct. Luna needs to improve the resources provided to their new customers. I am going to do what I can to make sure they get their shit together.

 

[bingosunnoon]

Hi
I have a motor from e-bikekit in the shop for service. Suspect one of the hall sensors as commutation causes lock up.
Anyone know the pin assignments on the Julet 9 connector for this motor? The phase wires are apparent but B+ and ground are a mystery. Their support email does not respond.
Thanks
Bingo Noon

 

[docw009]

Looking at one of my extension cables. This would be the motor side, looking at the male pins.

White optional for speed sensor on my motor. Black is Hall sensor ground. Red is Hall sensor power.

Of course, I could be color blind.

Nine Pin E-bike Motor Connector Pinout (Juliet/Higo) used on my Bafang 8fun hubmotor and others. Your motor may vary.

 

[dogman dan]

Beat me to it Docw009. There is a point though, at which EBK would rather not have it's customers modifying stuff. So if you need that pinout, you crossed the line where EBK would help. This is liability stuff, if the company encouraged you to modify your wiring.

But I would have told you here. :wink:

 

[amberwolf]

Just curious: why would it cross the line to need the pinout to troubleshoot a problem, to determine if it was the controller or motor?

Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to not have to ship the entire kit back and forth, and send only the part needed to fix it?

 

[dogman dan]

Because if he needs that pinout, he's not trying to get the kit going with our stuff. He's modifying it, meaning we are all done with our job.

If he wants to make his bike run on parts sold by somebody else, how is this something we would spend money on helping him do? We send him to ES to ask the question. And there,, it costs the company nothing if I give the answer on my own time. Think of it like this,, if you own a ford, would the ford dealer spend time helping you fix it with chevy parts?

Wire colors match up throughout the whole kit anyway. All he'd need to do is buy an extension wire from us, and then his pinout matches. then after the plug, he just goes by wire colors. So this is what we tell people to do. buy the wire, then make the splice by matching colors. Or cut the plugs off, and match up the colors.

 

[amberwolf]

Because if he needs that pinout, he's not trying to get the kit going with our stuff. He's modifying it, meaning we are all done with our job.

Are you sure? His post says:

I have a motor from e-bikekit in the shop for service. Suspect one of the hall sensors as commutation causes lock up

so knowing the pinout allows for testing of the motor separately from the controller using a multimeter, without risking further damage by opening up the motor to get to the hall sensors directly and waving a magnet over each one.

It's possible there is more to the story that isn't being said in his single post on ES, but it doesn't look like a modification based on the post itself.

 

[dogman dan]

There is a crapton of information on the EBK website. Anything missing on the website is Jasons decision, not mine.

Plus you can ask me about stuff 8 hours every weekday. No waiting for email. But I never got this guy on the chat asking about pinout. The business also has a phone number.

I was not able to find an email asking about pinout. But I could easily have missed it, doing a crude look for it without a name to search for.

 

[2old]

I'm involved in a project constructing a three-wheel "chariot" using a Mongoose Dolomite as the donor bike and grafting a "side car" which encloses a wheelchair to it. Just want to report that we're now using an ebikekit rear motor built into a fat rear wheel and that DD has tirelessly assisted with the project answering any and every query. What I think is objectionable and egregious are companies that lie about the characteristics of their products like the one which stated their batteries were good for 400-1000 or whatever cycles and both of the ones that I purchased (the first with a kit) died within 50 cycles. The owner knows he had a problem, but offers no compensation.

 

[slacker]

2old, link to kit and bad battery please. Thinking of purchasing and would like a warning. thank's

 

[2old]

Since you asked, stay away from Dillenger based on my experience. Beautiful kit that was very intuitive to assemble and fun to ride until..... Now, I have a bunch of useless parts until I decide to purchase a 36V battery elsewhere and graft it to the system.