Anybody have experience with 9C 20" Wheels and spokes?

[swbluto]

So ebikes.ca is telling me the double butted spokes are best for ebikes. DTswiss is telling me that it's triple butted spokes (DT alpine III) are ideal for E-bikes.

http://www.dtswiss.com/Components/Spokes/DT-alpine-III-sup-®-sup

Ebikes.ca is telling me that my 9C 20" wheel needs 66.7mm long spokes, however, it doesn't seem like triple butted spokes come in that size and it doesn't seem like you can cut those down? Uhhhh, what kind of spokes are you guys using? I need something strong because the spokes on my 20" 9C wheel are busting like crazy. I run a 100psi tires on the back, so I'm guessing I need the strongest spokes I can get. Let me know if there's a rim that'd be ideal for this, like maybe some sort of "ebike rim" designed for 13ga spokes - I'm getting the feeling I'll need to replace the rim to accommodate my 100psi 2.125" tire.

 

[wesnewell]

Assume it's radial laced. I'd think you'd want the strongest spokes possible. I'd use straight 12g if the hub will take them.

 

[docnjoj]

That is what our 2 9C'a have and they work fine on trikes on smooth roads. 12 ga stainless that came with them. I have Sapim 13=14 butted on my front wheels and my wife has 48 spoke rears that came with her trike. All wheels are 20".
otherDoc

 

[swbluto]

Interesting, I measured my spokes and they were 2.25 mm in diameter which seems to be 13 gauge (2.3 mm, usually). 12 gauge appears to be 2.6mm in size according to http://www.unicycle.uk.com/calculator/ .

How would I know if my rim would take 12 gauge? Would I be checking to see if the rim's holes could take a slightly bigger nipple? Is it just the hub's holes I'd have to worry about?

 

[newb]

I did this a few yrs back using a 12ga spokes in an Alex DX32 w/ radial lacing. Gotta say it was a huge pain lacing w/ 12ga even doing radial lacing.

The rim had eyelets which required drilling to fit the 12ga spoke nipples. Also, it was an older version 9C that required dishing so the spoke lengths were offset by 2mm.


This is what i ordered from Illia @ ebikessf

- 38 x 12 ga brass nipple, metallic finish - $8.36
SKU: nipple-12-ga-sil

- 38 x Sapim black 12 gauge stainless steel spoke - $36.10
SKU: spoke-12g-blk
Specify spoke length (50 to 300mm): 19 @ 80mm / 19 @ 82mm


EDIT: I personally have not seen a bicycle rim that fit 12ga nipples w/o drilling so I would expect that will be required.

 

[docnjoj]

Interesting, I measured my spokes and they were 2.25 mm in diameter which seems to be 13 gauge (2.3 mm, usually). 12 gauge appears to be 2.6mm in size according to http://www.unicycle.uk.com/calculator/ .

How would I know if my rim would take 12 gauge? Would I be checking to see if the rim's holes could take a slightly bigger nipple? Is it just the hub's holes I'd have to worry about?

I suspect that the EBikekit wheels that we have were drilled by them and laced by them. One needed to be redone and one was and is fine 2 years later at about 4000 miles. They state that they do the wheels here in the US.
otherDoc

 

[swbluto]

I did this a few yrs back using a 12ga spokes in an Alex DX32 w/ radial lacing. Gotta say it was a huge pain lacing w/ 12ga even doing radial lacing.

The rim had eyelets which required drilling to fit the 12ga spoke nipples. Also, it was an older version 9C that required dishing so the spoke lengths were offset by 2mm.


This is what i ordered from Illia @ ebikessf

- 38 x 12 ga brass nipple, metallic finish - $8.36
SKU: nipple-12-ga-sil

- 38 x Sapim black 12 gauge stainless steel spoke - $36.10
SKU: spoke-12g-blk
Specify spoke length (50 to 300mm): 19 @ 80mm / 19 @ 82mm


EDIT: I personally have not seen a bicycle rim that fit 12ga nipples w/o drilling so I would expect that will be required.


View attachment 1

Thanks for the information! I have a feeling I have one of the older generation 9c's. I've had mine for 3 years and it was used when I purchased it.

Sounds like a huge pain, however. Removing the spokes, drilling the rim and hub, relacing with 12 gauge spokes, truing the wheel. I just want to order an up-to-date 9C 20inch rear wheel but ebikes.ca is out of those and has been for at least the last 3 months. [In my experience, it's a good idea to keep a backup hubwheel. My experience has been they regularly bum out due to various issues, like bearings going bad, spoke flange breaking off, spokes breaking or freewheel collar being sheared. All have happened to me in the last 5 years. ]

 

[docnjoj]

Both of our Ebikekit 9C have never had any electrical or bearing problem. Mine at 3 years and my wife's at 2 years and lots of miles.
otherDoc

 

[swbluto]

Both of our Ebikekit 9C have never had any electrical or bearing problem. Mine at 3 years and my wife's at 2 years and lots of miles.
otherDoc

Cool. I can't find any individually sold hub motors, though. It seems they only come in kit form.

 

[newb]

Thanks for the information! I have a feeling I have one of the older generation 9c's. I've had mine for 3 years and it was used when I purchased it.

Sounds like a huge pain, however. Removing the spokes, drilling the rim and hub, relacing with 12 gauge spokes, truing the wheel. I just want to order an up-to-date 9C 20inch rear wheel but ebikes.ca is out of those and has been for at least the last 3 months. [In my experience, it's a good idea to keep a backup hubwheel. My experience has been they regularly bum out due to various issues, like bearings going bad, spoke flange breaking off, spokes breaking or freewheel collar being sheared. All have happened to me in the last 5 years. ]

You won't need to drill the hub for 12ga just the rim. And if you went with 13ga you wouldn't have to drill either one.

Fyi, I went overkill using 12ga as i had planned to take some pretty big drops w/ that build, otherwise it would have been 13ga.

 

[swbluto]

So are the 13 gauge sapim spokes so much stronger than the 13ga chinese spokes the older 9C wheel came with? Steel seems to be steel, not exactly sure how 'sapim' is going to save the day.

 

[swbluto]

Seems like ebikessf now sells straight 12 gauge philwood spokes and 13-14 gauge butted philwood spokes (14 at the nipple, 13 at the rim).

Seems I'd have to get the straight 13gauge spokes from ebikes.ca.

 

[newb]

So are the 13 gauge sapim spokes so much stronger than the 13ga chinese spokes the older 9C wheel came with? Steel seems to be steel, not exactly sure how 'sapim' is going to save the day.

Good question for JRH (jonrobholmes). But of the wheels I've built never had an issue using 13ga. In fact, used 14ga on several and they have all held up well. To date, not a broken spoke in the whole bunch. Example, built a 26" wheel using 14ga odessey spokes on mac 10t motor that pulls up to 50a max/35a cont. It's used regularly up steep hills, trails and off plenty of curbs - true as the day i built it. Maybe i have just been lucky, but if so, then I've been Lucky A Lot :lol:

 

[swbluto]

Ok, good to know.

I emailed ebikes.ca about their 13ga spokes and I'm trying to figure out if I need 66.7mm like their spoke calculator is telling me, or if I need half 80mm and half 82mm like you ordered. I'm hoping they can figure it out because I clearly can't, lol. I'm also ordering one of their 20inch 10-turn 9C front wheels as a backup - would remove the ability to pedal but I don't care - just need something to get around. I had multiple 26" hub wheels for the purpose of backups, but my recumbent only takes a 20" wheel, and recumbents are in a whole another class when it comes to range/comfort capabilities.

 

[newb]

Ok, good to know.

I emailed ebikes.ca about their 13ga spokes and I'm trying to figure out if I need 66.7mm like their spoke calculator is telling me, or if I need half 80mm and half 82mm like you ordered. I'm hoping they can figure it out because I clearly can't, lol.

Your spoke length will depend on your rim ERD (Effective Rim Diameter). Once you know what the ERD number is, it's an easy calculation.

Mine was 393mm so that worked out to be 80/82 for me.

Alex DX32

Low profile, extra wide rim profile
4 sizes available
Option: CSW / SSE

Pin joint, 32, 36 holes, silver, black
26", 559X32, 755g, ERD: 546
24", 507X32, 650g, ERD: 495
20", 406X32, 540g, ERD: 393
19", 381X32, 510g, ERD: 371

 

[izeman]

for my hs3540 which is quite similar to the 9c radially laced, i used 13g dt swiss stainless steel from Alan Raeburn <catsnapperwheels@gmail.com>
laced in an alienation delinquent rim. i used washers - don't know if they are needed for the 9c. laced it once, checked spoke tension every now and then, but no spoke snapping or untrue wheel for 1000km now. imho there is no need to go 12g spokes.
what's the power you're wanting to drive it? my max is 4.5kW and i got no problem yet.

 

[richmpdx]

izeman,
Interesting that you have had no problems with an HS3540 radial laced in a 20" rim and using a disk brake. I also have an HS3540, radial lace in 20" rim. But unlike your custom wheel build with quality spokes, mine was the Crystalyte wheel build with Chinese spokes. I have had a big problem with spokes breaking. Perhaps it just requires better spokes and wheel build. I had assumed that part of the problem was due to the use of a disk brake which really stresses radial spokes. Do you use the rear disk brake much, or pretty much only brake with the front brakes?
Rich

 

[LSBW]

Bicycle rims don't allow for angled spoke installation. That's too bad.

With 16" moped rim I was able to make 1 cross lacing, which is after 1200 km proved to be very reliable.

 

[Chalo]

Uhhhh, what kind of spokes are you guys using? I need something strong because the spokes on my 20" 9C wheel are busting like crazy. I run a 100psi tires on the back, so I'm guessing I need the strongest spokes I can get. Let me know if there's a rim that'd be ideal for this, like maybe some sort of "ebike rim" designed for 13ga spokes - I'm getting the feeling I'll need to replace the rim to accommodate my 100psi 2.125" tire.

They are breaking because they are crap spokes and radially laced (therefore winding up with each application of torque). The fact that they are very short doesn't help your situation either, because they have little elasticity to attenuate shock loads on the spoke elbows and rim holes.

Best for you is probably 13-14ga single butted spokes, with a regular 2.0mm threaded end but a heavier 2.3mm elbow. That way you have as much elasticity as possible in a spoke with a thicker elbow to take the shocks and rocking movements.

However, the limiting factor in your case is how short your spokes must be cut. Grin Cyclery can do it, but they only do 13ga straight spokes. Maybe John Rob Holmes can provide other spoke options; I don't know. In any case, the Belgian-made Sapim spokes from Grin will be worlds better than what you have now. You should use linseed oil or Spoke Prep to keep the nipples from unscrewing.

As for rims, there are a lot of 36 hole freestyle rims to choose from that will all do the job. I'd shop around for the heaviest double-walled rim I could find.

Once you get to a tire as fat as 2", there is no benefit whatsoever in pumping 100 psi into it. The harsh shock transmission will eat up any efficiency gains from the high pressure, you'll wear out tires too fast, and you'll compromise traction and puncture resistance, while not enjoying any of the benefits of a fat tire. For a 2.125" tire, try 60psi and adjust up or down from there.

 

[amberwolf]

From my experiences using 20" wheels and hubmotors:

The 9C from ebikes.ca (just unused rotor and spokes and rim, from Dogman, used with my own stator/covers from a previous 9C): Spokes were 12g, I think, and too thick to stretch when tensioned, so they wouldn't stay tensioned and just loosened and broke and fell out of the wheel instead, in an extremely short time. Rim was same Champion brand I'd already had in the preivous wheel, just in 20" instead of 26", and it's not a very good rim at all. I don't recall the spoke length needed, but it was radially spoked. I think I lost four or five spokes before I gave up on it as unrideable, set it aside to fix it and got it partly relaced with used spokes but never got it back onto the bike to retest before the house fire.


The HS3540 from ebikes.ca, prelaced with I think 12G or 13G "china" spokes, on whatever rim they come with: Again, too thick to stay tensioned, and they again just loosened and broke and fell out of the wheel. I forget exactly how many, but I think 10 (ten) spokes broke very very quickly.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12500&start=825#p752291

This wheel I got a new set of Sapim spokes, 13G I think, from Grin Tech / ebikes.ca, cut at two different lengths. Drive side is now 1X and left side is still radial. So far I have had no problems with the spokes loosening up or breaking, in what is at least 400 miles of work commutes and other riding, and that includes several SERIOUS pothole hits I couldn't avoid, 6-8" deep, enough to almost cause me to crash (the rear wheel, this one, has no suspension and has most of the bike's weight on it).

But to use the 1X, with my rim and these thick spokes, I had to bend the spokes prior to the threaded part, so they'd not end up snapping at the threads--this isn't desirable, but the only way I could reasonably do it without other special parts/rim/etc., using just what I had already plus the new spokes.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12500&start=825#p763615

I think it would be better to use double or triple-butted spokes, but I'm not sure how available they are in lengths as short as are needed for this kind of wheel, especially in a radial lace. I'm also not any kind of expert on wheelbuilding, so those above with more expertise and experience at it would be wiser to follow than me.


If you go for 1X instead, the wheel will be significantly stronger than radial, and with longer spokes might be easier to get the other spokes for. The catch with non-radial lacings in wheels this small with hubmotors that big, is that the rim's nipple holes aren't angled for this, so you may have to get washers for the inside of the rim that are made with "cups" in them so the nipples can be angled to allow the spoke to be straight, and not have any part of it that is bent. There are also nipples that have a matching curve to those washers, that would help with this.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22800&p=767501#p767501


If you still have the Champion rim that the 9C typically comes with, you might wanna change it out for a better rim that has eyelets, too, and a non-deep rim is better because you can fit longer spokes, making lacing easier and giving more ability to tension the spokes properly, and more spoke to stretch as needed on bumps/etc.


Brand of spokes: Sapim, PhilWood, etc., are all good ones. Probably if they *have* a brand name they are probably good spokes. (though some are probably still better than others, I don't have the experience to say).

 

[amberwolf]

So are the 13 gauge sapim spokes so much stronger than the 13ga chinese spokes the older 9C wheel came with? Steel seems to be steel, not exactly sure how 'sapim' is going to save the day.

Regarding this, steel comes in many many types, and I have a feeling that most of hte stuff in the generic "chinese" spokes is a mishmash of whatever metal was avaialble at the time, melted and then drawn into wire and bent and threaded to make spokes as needed. I doubt it is made of any particular kind of steel, or consistent from batch to batch. I also can say for sure that it isn't the right kind for spokes, or it wouldn't break the way it does compared to non-chinese spokes (whcih also break, but under heavier loads/worse conditions).

So yeah, Sapim (or most any other "brand name", most likely) will be tremendously better than generic "chinese" spokes.

Personally, I don't understand why any ebike vendor (especially Grin Tech / ebikes.ca) would even bother to order pre-laced wheels from China without sending over the good spokes for them in the first place, and not just letting them use the junk spokes, and dealing with the problems later (with customers down for the duration till the wheel gets fixed).

 

[swbluto]

Personally, I don't understand why any ebike vendor (especially Grin Tech / ebikes.ca) would even bother to order pre-laced wheels from China without sending over the good spokes for them in the first place, and not just letting them use the junk spokes, and dealing with the problems later (with customers down for the duration till the wheel gets fixed).

It's cheaper for the distributor having the cheap Chinese slaves lace the wheel with their cheap components and let the customers deal with the problems at their expense.

Now ebikekit certainly takes a more proactive approach, in bringing up the product quality to western standards, but they won't sell *just* the hubmotor as far as I can tell by looking at their site.

 

[swbluto]

From my experiences using 20" wheels and hubmotors:

The 9C from ebikes.ca (just unused rotor and spokes and rim, from Dogman, used with my own stator/covers from a previous 9C): Spokes were 12g, I think, and too thick to stretch when tensioned, so they wouldn't stay tensioned and just loosened and broke and fell out of the wheel instead, in an extremely short time. Rim was same Champion brand I'd already had in the preivous wheel, just in 20" instead of 26", and it's not a very good rim at all. I don't recall the spoke length needed, but it was radially spoked. I think I lost four or five spokes before I gave up on it as unrideable, set it aside to fix it and got it partly relaced with used spokes but never got it back onto the bike to retest before the house fire.


The HS3540 from ebikes.ca, prelaced with I think 12G or 13G "china" spokes, on whatever rim they come with: Again, too thick to stay tensioned, and they again just loosened and broke and fell out of the wheel. I forget exactly how many, but I think 10 (ten) spokes broke very very quickly.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12500&start=825#p752291

This wheel I got a new set of Sapim spokes, 13G I think, from Grin Tech / ebikes.ca, cut at two different lengths. Drive side is now 1X and left side is still radial. So far I have had no problems with the spokes loosening up or breaking, in what is at least 400 miles of work commutes and other riding, and that includes several SERIOUS pothole hits I couldn't avoid, 6-8" deep, enough to almost cause me to crash (the rear wheel, this one, has no suspension and has most of the bike's weight on it).

But to use the 1X, with my rim and these thick spokes, I had to bend the spokes prior to the threaded part, so they'd not end up snapping at the threads--this isn't desirable, but the only way I could reasonably do it without other special parts/rim/etc., using just what I had already plus the new spokes.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12500&start=825#p763615

I think it would be better to use double or triple-butted spokes, but I'm not sure how available they are in lengths as short as are needed for this kind of wheel, especially in a radial lace. I'm also not any kind of expert on wheelbuilding, so those above with more expertise and experience at it would be wiser to follow than me.


If you go for 1X instead, the wheel will be significantly stronger than radial, and with longer spokes might be easier to get the other spokes for. The catch with non-radial lacings in wheels this small with hubmotors that big, is that the rim's nipple holes aren't angled for this, so you may have to get washers for the inside of the rim that are made with "cups" in them so the nipples can be angled to allow the spoke to be straight, and not have any part of it that is bent. There are also nipples that have a matching curve to those washers, that would help with this.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22800&p=767501#p767501


If you still have the Champion rim that the 9C typically comes with, you might wanna change it out for a better rim that has eyelets, too, and a non-deep rim is better because you can fit longer spokes, making lacing easier and giving more ability to tension the spokes properly, and more spoke to stretch as needed on bumps/etc.


Brand of spokes: Sapim, PhilWood, etc., are all good ones. Probably if they *have* a brand name they are probably good spokes. (though some are probably still better than others, I don't have the experience to say).

Good to know! Thanks!

(Jeez, I just want to throw away this wheel now. These wheels seem to be as bad as a junker car in terms of cost of maintenance, including lost time and money.)

 

[izeman]

you must know that there are BIG differences between spokes and spokes. i would never trust cheap chinese crap. i may be ok for a 250w 26" wheel. but for 20" radial i took the best quality i could afford. buy good rims as well.
the problem with crossing spokes and 20" wheels is, that i just won't fit. if you try to bend these small thick spokes you will get problems to tighten them correctly and keep them tight.
i was worried about radial lacing a lot (read my seperate threads about it) but am really happy now. spokes are really short, and i use my rear brake all the time. the brakes are really strong and it's hard to no over brake the wheel
as was also worried that the rim could brake/implode as the forces are really high and you can't check spoke tension because no tension meter will fit because if the short spokes.

 

[docnjoj]

So are the 13 gauge sapim spokes so much stronger than the 13ga chinese spokes the older 9C wheel came with? Steel seems to be steel, not exactly sure how 'sapim' is going to save the day.

Yep! More elastic too. That is what saves them.
otherDoc