Are AirStream Bikes any good? (A Noob's First E-Bike Thread)

[pjpeter]

That's one thing though if you have a throttle only bike, if you pedal, it uses the power right? It's not as if when the bike is powered it stops using the pedals right? It's just with PAS it will detect how much you put in and match it (based on a certain ratio), right?

Thanks,
Peter

 

[dnmun]

yes, pedelec gives you power based on how much you pedal. power assist controlled through the throttle gives you whatever power you select by twisting the throttle.

for these kit built bikes with 36V lifepo4 packs, most people cannot pedal fast enuff to keep up unless they buy the big front crank and small rear freewheel.

the difference is speed, the pedelec will help you go 12mph, and the 9 continents kit from jason at ebikekits will make you go 25mph. in europe and australia people do get tickets for doing it. i haven't heard of one here in the states or canada.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

As for the A2B, not sure - a bit pricey for me and beyond my knowledge - I noticed he made a lot of mods (and not all for cosmetics), I don't think I'm ready for that yet. Thanks though.

Were any of Ypedal's mods necessary or were they enhancements that were beyond any comparably priced turn-key ebike?

What mods did John Holmes make (I think none)? How much did he pay ($200). I know that's a very rare bargain but you could at least keep an eye on craigslist.

I wouldn't pay any attention to the specified ranges. Compare the pack kWh (volts * ah).

 

[pjpeter]

Interesting, the review was of a full price model - he mentioned the seat made it impossible to pedal comfortably and so on so I was a little doubtful. True though, there are deals out there if you find them.

I'm really considering this now: http://www.moonriverev.com/index.ph...category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=56. The only knock I have against it is I think I pay have broken the PAS when the chain came off at one point (me stupid switching too many gears while on full throttle). May be I just couldn't feel it...not sure. Says it has a Befang motor and Shimano shifter

I was able to get to 22km/h consistent on flat road with me and my backpack on it weighing things down probably 200lbs with no assist, just throttle. Really liked the pick up on this thing - no pedaling required, though it's so light and small it's lighter than my normal mountain bike even with the battery - so easier to pedal as well. I can fit it under my desk at work as well, so no need to worry about it getting stolen - foldable bike is a really interesting thing imho...

No Manual though and only the demo bike left. Every day without the bike is another $5 and three + hours of frustration on transit... decisions, decisions...

Peter

 

[amberwolf]

My current bike is more spare parts than not

That's not necessarily a bad thing.
<======

 

[pjpeter]

The only ones that'd fit most of the time were mostly from the junk bin at the local bike repair shop tho . Derailler, pedals, seat, some cables and brakes and a lot more I think . Break cable needs to be restrung, can't move the wheel at all without it being on

Really liking the MR4 folding ebike though from my last post - really thinking to go back this morning to take another look. I have an appointment nearby it could work out really well...

Peter

 

[johnrobholmes]

That mr4 does look like a good match for you.

 

[pjpeter]

Thanks for that vote - based on that any my own feelings I grabbed the MR4!

At first though I spoke to the guy and he told me it had no PAS - I showed him the site that said it should and he took a look and found the sensor - so he's going to order a new sensor part. The problem I think it is with it is that it was probably broken when the chain came off during my test drive last night. I fixed the chain - but when it came off it may have knocked the sensor too far, it should have been within 2 millimeters of what it was watching, but it was twice that and couldn't see to kick in.

Took it into the office, thought to stealthily try to stick it under my desk and get to work, but the girl a desk over saw and pretty soon the whole office was around, ooing and awwing as I folded, unfolded, throttled and not.

So basically I have to take it in to get the PAS fixed, but otherwise I can throttle my way home. This is the same one that was reported to be only a 1 hour charging time - so we'll see about that. It does fit under my desk quite nicely and there's a couple of other spots in the office I can put it as well (some empty desks and a closet). So, so far I'm quite happy - definitely would like PAS, but we'll see how far throttle only will get me on my trip home. It couldn't quite fit in my trunk without moving the seats forward (it's a Sunfire) but under the desk it's fine so hopefully this will be the start of a long and wonderful friendship!

Gotta get back to work now - but thanks very much for all your comments!

Peter

P.S. If anyone has any questions at all on this thing please feel free to ask

Quick Info on Specs: Easy Flip Seat to get out battery, 250W Bafang Brushless Motor, Bell w/Compass, Digital Horn, Light off battery, Disc Brakes on front and rear, 3 month full bike warranty (and I have a guarantee if he can't fix the PAS to my satisfaction it can go back, no questions asked)

 

[dnmun]

most people would just take the sensor off anyway, who needs it when you have a throttle?

except for big brother.

 

[pjpeter]

Interesting - reading up on all the tech it seems like it can be very useful to have that pedal assist - I've found that with the throttle on this thing it can be very easy to go from nothing to max - it's hard to keep it anywhere in between. My thought with pedal assist is I can give the first 100W and then the motor can do the rest. So rather than doing a bunch of big boosts occasionally, I'd be taking a fairly constant drain on the battery while getting some cardio without the burn.

Of course I'm just a noob - but from my reading that's what I've heard and it seemed to work ok the other PAS bikes I tried out. Throttle is great for speed, but for range PAS can be the boost I need - especially when the battery starts to get a bit old. All imho, feel free to correct me.

Thanks,
Peter

 

[johnrobholmes]

If they can't get the parts for it, I have plenty of PAS stuff here and can help you fix it up. The only thing you may need to do is take off the bottom bracket. If the PA sensor is bent out of the way, try bending it back where it is close to the magnet ring again.

 

[pjpeter]

Thanks a lot for the offer John, will definitely take a look if I need anything in future - will probably leave it with them though until this ever so short 3 month warranty finishes. I got him to call up and order the part before I left actually - was going to bring it on Saturday to get it fixed, but it looks like it may have to wait since the post probably won't get it there by tomorrow. I've got it in writing though that he'll fix it or give me a replacement bike so hopefully... He also said he'd find some way to cover that area as well incase the chain were to come off again - not sure if I got that one in writing, but I have witnesses .

I hear you too on that fix, I gave it a shot, trying to bend it over, but it still seems to be too far - it actually feels pretty solid where it is - me and the manager both tried to budge it but short of putting enough pressure to possibly snap it off, it just wasn't going. I tried to clean it off with a tissue incase some grease or something got in there from the chain incident - but no dice.

Is this sort of thing common? The PAS becoming easily damaged I mean?

Thanks,
Peter

 

[johnrobholmes]

There should be a black ring on the crankset with the magnets on it. Try to move that over closer to the bottom bracket. I bet it just slid out when the chain hit it.

I don't use the PAS personally, but I do want to convert one of my bikes to it for "ease" of use.

 

[spinningmagnets]

It might not be too hard to figure out how to leave the PAS system in place, but add a switch that allows you to configure the bike to be either one (hand-throttle, or PAS). I don't know the "appearance of compliance" is an issue where you are.

I'm going to guess you will be pretty happy with that one. Since you have a hard-tail frame, perhaps consider a Thudbuster seat post? (expensive, but I'm told its very nice)

 

[pjpeter]

Hi spinningmagnets, no issue here I think - AirStream said it's the law, but there's no way it is - there are eScooters all over the place and half the riders of them probably can't put them through one pedal revolution (well if half of them still have the pedals on that is ). Very heavy things, I tried one out and I got a few feet pedaling them, but it was a ton of work. The only legal requirements is that it doesn't go more than 32km/h on motor power alone, the motor has a max rating of 500W, you must be over 16 and wear a helmet and it must have working pedals. So I think I'm good with both throttle and PAS - will keep my ear out though incase that ever changes, thanks.

It's definitely nice having the Throttle/PAS power button right on the handlebar - it's so easy in my noobness to accidentally give it a turn and it's a mess.

It took me about 2 hours to come home today - about 30 minutes more than transit - but I went the wrong way for 10 minutes (I thought those other cyclists knew where I was going so I followed them when my map got fuzzy ) - but besides that it was a ton of fun to be riding the bike. I found 90% of the time I was on full throttle, so probably cruising around 23km/h on flats and faster the rest of the way. I wasn't very efficient, not at all - I'd start with the motor from a dead stop almost always. So of course, the dealer said 55km no pedaling - and I did help it a bit on the hills, but let it do most of them itself to see if it could make it. Almost got home, only 2 km away out of my 23km route - and the battery just died. I could turn it on and use it for a few seconds and then dead again. Unfortunately, I was just coming to the hilliest part of the whole ride, almost entirely up hill and very steep - so I had to walk the last 20 mins or pushing my brand new ebike along beside me.

I think maybe the battery ran out of power - but all the lights were still lit, saying it was full. The bike would go about 2 feet with me on it, or it would spin in the air seemingly infinitely - I think maybe the amperage is too low. It read 36.7 on the voltage meter - it's a 36V battery - so that should mean it's got lots of juice left right...?

I'm wondering if the guy just charged it once when he got it a couple of months ago and since it was already 60% charged from the factory, he saw it only took 1 hour and a bit to charge and thought that was it and so advertised it as a quick charger. I topped it up another hour and a bit at work before the bike ride home - I'm not too surprised it didn't make it all the way home 23km with hills 95% on throttle alone - but I wish the indicator showed it was running low. The green would go off if I was going up hill, full throttle, but it always came back on right after - and the yellow and red stayed on always. Does the battery need conditioning and the display need calibration?

One of the things I wanted to ask - when using the motor, I find that at full throttle on level ground I can't do anything whatsoever to help the motor out - my pedals just turn like there is no tension at all, turning freely with almost 0 effort. Is there any way to adjust things to make it harder - this is on 6th gear. Though possibly, my gears are messed up - when I went to first gear again, the chain came right off again instantly. Either way though, is such an adjustment possible? I can help the motor with climbs and so on and I suppose I can try to run it at a lower speed than max (which is tough without the PAS - and maybe even with it!) - but it'd be nice to be able to make it home without having to turn my bike off much the rest of the time.

So lots to get fixed, not sure if I'll be able to make it to work with this thing - definitely though going to dress to work out and possibly sweat though, rather than risking it in the dressy clothes... Was so close too.

Peter

 

[Ykick]

Welcome to the "process" of adapting to battery transportation. I just stumbled into your thread and found some great discussions covering practical issues regarding operation and performance facing an eBike consumer.

Most of us have been there with regard to battery capacity, charging, conditioning and overly optimistic range estimates. You never want to attempt max range on any battery pack until you have a good understanding of what to expect from the particular pack and system configuration.

After a few charge/discharge cycles you should see some average range and then proceed to plan your trips around that realistic information. Doing this type qualification you may also discover your battery has a defect and needs technical help before you find yourself pedaling a steep hill with a rather heavy bike.

Lotsa little details in these things, eh? I don't have experience with hub motor PAS sensors and operation but I have used the Japanese Panasonic PAS geared system. If I understand what y'all are saying the Panasonic Pedelec operates almost in reverse?

In other words, the Panasonic would sense pedal crank movement and apply max assist for a few moments. However, after a few moments of pedaling the system decides you must not need more help if you're going to pedal that much so it backs off application of the motor. The way to "trick" it was not pedal in any cadence - pulsing the pedals would fool the system into thinking it's always pulling from a stop thus applying max motor power during the ride.

Crazy thing to figure out and there were other variations in the logic of the thing but that's what I believe it was doing.

As far as your pedal speed it's a matter of gearing. I'm looking at that change to one of my bikes and learning the bicycle component terminology is challenging. So many variations in Freewheels/Cassettes, Chain rings, Crankwheels, bottom brackets, BCD, etc. Makes my head spin but this forum helps if you can find the discussion, it's probably already been talked to death...

Welcome and enjoy! Keep yer brakes, tires and bike in good shape and always wear a helmet. These things aren't toys!

PS - 14 miles (23Km) is fairly decent in my book from an 8AH 36V battery. The PAS and a few charge cycles might help squeeze a little more but I'm very happy when my batteries deliver 1mi/Ah let alone nearly double that.

 

[pjpeter]

Thanks for your reply Ykick, yep I do always wear a helmet - trust me . I did First Aid though so I know typically people wearing a helmet would have more chance of neck damage vs. brain damage - so I make sure my helmet is fairly light, but still fully protective .

The guy at the shop kept insisting it'd go 55km easily with no assist - he was telling to another customer as I looked over the bike - I was behind the guy so I shook my head at my fellow consumer to let him know it wasn't so. So it didn't make it the full 23 km - but it came close. Though thinking about it now, with all the extra I did when I went the wrong way and all the uphills elevation taken into account, it probably did do 23 before it conked on me. I just wish the indicators had given me some notice it was getting low though - the full light was lit even when it would shut off after 2 feet - so not something I judge from unfortunately. Is that typical?

With my backpack and possibly some extra weight gained working at this desk job, I may be almost at the 100kg capacity rating - so I'm thinking it will probably go faster and farther as I get more in shape and cut out some of the superfluous stuff I'm carrying around. No complaints on how long it lasted - I knew the guy was over-estimating/going from PAS numbers on perfectly ideal conditions - but it's nice to know when it's running low. All I noticed is that the green started to go out under heavy load about 30 minutes before it finally went - the yellow never went out from what I saw.

Definitely glad though I had the 50lb foldable one when the battery went (though having use of Gear 1 would also be nice... need to get that fixed) - just too bad the end of my trip will always be uphill, will have to be saving power for it the whole way around.

I bet though if I did things better, took a straighter path with fewer starts/stops and gave it more assist then I could go much further - looking forward to trying that in future .

Also certainly glad I've got the throttle - it's a feature I definitely like - when AirStream told me it was illegal I decided to stay away from AirStream (though also confirming in the law that it isn't) - looking forward to trying out PAS and seeing what I think of it was well though - if I decide I don't want it then I can take it away quite easily apparently .

Glad I got the bike with suspension, some of my trip is gravel and almost all of it is pretty bumpy. Not sure how much it actually helped though, I think I might be able to adjust it though I don't really have a clue on that. The front fork suspension has caps on both that turn - no idea if it's doing anything tho..

Thanks,
Peter

 

[Ykick]

The onboard power meter is probably scaled for lead acid batteries which exhibit much great voltage sag than some Lithium chemistry and probably slightly lower nominal operating voltage. Even in a perfectly calibrated system, these so called "fuel gauges" are more of an approximate "idea" of how much battery capacity remains.

You should really use some type of Power/Volt meter like a Cycle Analyst for accurate idea of how much AH you're actually using. I have a much cheaper Turnigy power meter alternative that works well but either one requires wiring skill to install.

I also highly recommend some sort of cycle speedometer and calibrate it to youir particular wheel size for best accuracy. Something like this really helps instead guessing distance travelled. They also store trip data which can be pretty fun to scroll through every once in a while.


I don't think those caps on your fork adjust anything. If like some of the lower cost MTB forks I've seen they're simply dust/moisture caps that cover attachment allen bolts down inside the fork.

I went full suspension and would probably never go back. It's a huge improvement in ride and road damage suffered rolling over rough surfaces with relatively heavy bikes.

 

[pjpeter]

Thanks for that - it makes me feel better to hear that was your vote as well. I noticed some other eBikes sold around the corner, didn't have disc breaks, suspension and a few other things that this bike had and I was second guessing if the $350 difference was worth it - this helps to reassure me a bit on that. Especially with the smaller tire, the ride is that much bumpier than even with my regular Mountain Bike...

I just wish more than just the green light would do anything lol - still I hear you - I'm used to having things drop off quick, it's just nice to know the plateau so I can estimate it. With not even one light going out (unless I'm watching it carefully on uphills) it makes things a little difficult. I may look at doing what you suggested and hooking up a meter, though of course not until the warranty runs out. Might give complaining a try and see if they'll do anything .

I hear you on checking the trip data - I thought it'd be nice to know so I had my X1 cell phone in my pocket running iGo GPS app on record mode. That's also how I confirmed the speed of 23km/h on my test drive the other day as well - it's just too bad last night and this morning I forgot to switch it on until I was half way through the ride. I've got my trusty A696 with its hold button ready to go in my backpack for the trip back - that way I don't need to worry about calling anyone or draining the battery with the screen on while doing the record as on my X1. Might get a cheap mount for the GPS or the phone at some point - I have a couple universal ones, just not the connector for the handlebar to attach it. A little worried though what might happen if I were to get knocked over tho - but it's all a risk really.

Thank you for your posts

Peter

 

[dnmun]

you may already have damaged your battery if you ran it dead on the first ride. it take a few cycles to get it balanced so the fake voltage reading did not show the low cells dropping below the 2V where they are damaged. this is how most new lifepo4 packs get damaged.

 

[pjpeter]

Reading http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15784 now. Stupid me I believe the manufacturer and went with their recommendations:
ie:

For a brand new lithium battery, the first 3 charge-discharge cycle should be fully discharged and fully charged. During these 3 cycles, the architecture of the batterys anode and cathode will be completly build. After these initial cycles, user can freely charge and discharge the battery. For longer battery life it must be plugged in after every ride.

http://www.moonriverev.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=63

Thanks for the post, based on that advice from the manufacturer I was minutes away from going to go out on a ride to run the battery down completely as it said. At least it had gone through at least 2 charging cycles before I ran it down fully - and I made it home today, exactly 23km in 1 hour 8 mins (GPS stats, says average speed 20km/h), without running out of power - though this time when I was coming up the last hill it had gone to yellow on the voltage reading.

Thanks for your post, wish I'd read the guide sooner

Peter

Update: One thing I will mention to clarify is that the battery was not 100% dead the first time (doubt it was still at 30% tho) - it would turn off after a couple of feet, but would turn on again and again and again - it always had enough power to do those couple of feet (I didn't push it though, but before I knew what the battery meter was showing I did start and stop it 5 or 6 times trying to get home on power or showing my father the problem). So I think the BMS was probably shutting it down before full discharge.

I know what the electric cars are doing tho, not using beyond 30% and not charging beyond 80% of max to keep the lifespan long - and I know I killed a Li-Ion laptop battery a few years ago with a couple of full discharges, so I've been very careful. When I read what the manufacturer said though, I believed it - but what I'm reading on the guide fits much better with everything else I know about lithium batts...

 

[pjpeter]

Hi Everyone,

Just FYI, I wanted to let you know - I took that ebike back. It turned out to have all sorts of problems - at first the PAS was broken and they got the wrong part from the manufacturer and I'd have to wait 6-8 weeks for it to be fixed. Then it turned out the gears couldn't do all 6 speeds and he disabled the last one. It meant I'd get a lot of clicking when trying to use the other speeds and it shouldn't have been needed on a new bike - it seems it was because the chain was not lined up properly. That's why it fell off and killed the PAS. And then the power cord started to fall out as I biked after about a week on the road - and that (along with many other issues with the bike and the service it was given) was the final straw. So I ended up taking it back (and to their credit, when I explained all the problems, they took it) and bought a Bay Street 20" Folder from Green Cruiser instead. It has a chain guard, much higher quality full fenders, foldable pedals, rear light, it's faster, folds up nicely enough to put in a bag, has a 10 Ah battery (that I confirmed today by going 25km almost all full throttle with some pedaling and it still had more juice left! - this was on my 12th charge though, previously I only went 8km at first and up to 15km for the first week to condition the battery) and many more features that beat out the other bike in just about every way.

Plus it was $400 less than the other bike (950 CAD /w tax vs. 1350 CAD w/tax) - no contest.

Thanks for your help all.

Peter

Link to new bike, just fyi: http://www.green-cruiser.com/bay-street-angel-1.html

UPDATE: I had some issues with this bike, see my other post for more details...
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22180

 

[whyroc]

This is an old thread but the title fits. First, post, and a total ebike noob here.... I recently bought an Airstream 905 from a local home hardware store after searching around these forums etc, I guess the OP here didn't get an Airstream after all? Anyway here's a little review after my first week using it for anyone else shopping for the airstream.

So far my experience has been quite good with the bike and I am excited about commuting with it daily. This is something that just wasn't feasible for me to commute with my regular non-e-bike, 30km round trip often against the shore breeze made it very hard to get to work in under an hour and not soaked through with sweat.

Specs: -from what I understand about ebikes are not too bad for entry level:
-lithium battery
-250-350W rear hub motor
-pedal assist controller with override button for the throttle.

Observations:
-The bike was on sale for $799 from home hardware in Toronto, it became obvious quickly that home hardware typically does not know how to put a bike together properly (or inflate tires) etc.. . however I think the overall quality of the bike components as well as the electric stuff is pretty good for the price. If you are looking at this bike my suggestion is you will need to know how to tune and maintain bikes. It wasn't 'ready to ride' as far as I was concerned and I spent an evening getting it set up right. I put an allen wrench set and an adjustable in my backpack for the first week just to be safe.

-Riding an ebike takes some getting used to!!! I find the low top speed is a little annoying, I tend to want to pedal faster than the motor goes, must be 25 + km/hr. What I find sort of amusing is how the lycra road bikers will blow by you with attitude, but sure enough you catch up to them 5k later while they struggle with a hill or headwind. Each day this week my battery range has gotten longer, hopefully today i'll make it home without running out of juice. Running out of juice sucks on an ebike but not as bad as I thought... but still not fun. I think my riding style is I tend to push as much as I can with both power and pedals to get maximum average speed, I have been able to shave off at least 30 minutes each way with the ebike over the regular bike. Even if I can typically go faster on a non-ebike for a short stint, over long haul the steady 25km/hr wins for me both in terms of time and sweating factor when I get to work.

-I was definitely going to get and ebike or kit to convert my old bike and the airstream 905 seemed like a good deal (especially since i would need to do a lot of work on my regular bike to get it ready for a conversion). I missed out on the fun a little from the DIY kits but I feel like this bike is a great platform to get started with and am so far very happy with it. Of course after reading more here I see how its just beginning and I will likely be upgrading the battery, motor etc over the next few years that should give me a chance to experience the DIY thang..

-If you see me on the bike path lakeshore west give a thumbs up!

-w







-

 

[pjpeter]

I'm going to be over going across the Humber and western Waterfront trails myself in less than a week - looking forward to it . I'm still on my 50km round trip commute till then tho.

On the bike, it looks like you got one of the ones I was looking at all that time ago - I'm assuming you got it here:
http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-...IKE-LOWEST-PRICE-IN-CANADA-W0QQAdIdZ276044562

I hope the battery lasts well for you, as I doubt they followed the correct storage procedures (not storing full, topping it up at some point during the winter, etc..).

Did you end up getting the one unit that would start from a dead stop? (AirStream told me they crippled these units on purpose for Canada by law - which of course isn't true - they were probably just broken - a lot of them were conglomerations of spare parts - I know the dead start eats battery, but I'm lazy and it makes the experience much more fun ).

If they had that one unit that could there the second time I went back last Aug/Sept, I'd have gotten it - it really isn't a bad deal. I mean I like the folding one I got, but you can do a heck of a lot more biking on a 26" than on the 20" - especially now since I can't get my 20" to go to the most resistant gear (can't recall if that's highest or lowest) - I spent 15 minutes on it on a stand and still couldn't get the darn thing switching (though I did manage to get it to fall off the other side more than once ).

I hear you on the steady pace - I really hope it works out for you man . Mine goes just about 25km/h on flat into a light breeze, but pedaling the 20" in those conditions can only get me to 27/28 max even at the lowest gear and going full out.

So definitely, enjoy and I hope it works out .

 

[whyroc]

Hi pjpeter, so far my trip is working out great on the airstream ebike. It's been reliable and fun so at least it's motivation to !not! drive or take the go train.

re the battery and model year of bike, they had one left over that was 'last years' model that had the start from stop 'feature'. The 905 is newer and has a pedelec controller with throttle override but yes alas you do need to pedal to get it started. From what I can tell it is the 'whisper' bike from the UK, maybe they have swapped out some parts but in general its seems to be good quality.

From what the guy said it was in a box from the distributor only a week before (explained some of not - so - tightened parts) I don't think they had much of a chance to abuse the battery hopefully, but the floor model was the earlier model with the 'broken' controller that allowed throttle from dead stop I might question the condition of it.

re maintenance, I think there's some good resources out there to learn how to tune and repair common bike issues (regular bikes) that apply to ebikes. I've always tried to keep my bike in good working order but its not easy, especially getting the rear derailleur set right. There's always a new bike - cable stretching effect so that brakes, gears etc will need adjusting guaranteed within a few months of new bike purchase.

I find using the power in the stop start city traffic is not really needed especially downhill. It can also be a little dangerous when there is a crowd of bikes and cars not expecting you to take off so quick. I usually turn it off to conserve so I can make sure I have some juice to get across the humber flats in a headwind.

I'm not planning on modding the bike for the time being but next things I would do are:
-get a geared free wheel motor
-strap another battery on somehow and wire it in (after reading up on these forums!!!)

-C