Are Electric Cars Really Green?

[Warren]

WoW!!

From JR's blog:

JUST PASSED Federal Highway Bill. This past June Rep. Markwayne Mullin (R-Oklahoma) and Rep. Gene Green (D-Texas) introduced the Low Volume Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Act of 2015, http://media3.ev-tv.me/replicavehiclebill.pdf legislation that SEMA points out it had pursued since 2011.
The act received strong bipartisan support and was inserted into the highway bill. When the bill passed last week, it became law, meaning low-volume car manufacturers can produce turnkey replica vehicles for customers nationwide, SEMA said. This bill allows manufacturers of turnkey cars some of the same freedoms of kit cars – exemption from crash tests and many other regulations. As long as total volume is 325 vehicles or less per year.

It is interesting the cars DO have to pass emissions test. But they can use “approved” OEM engines to do it. Electric versions just don’t have the problem.

http://evtv.me/2016/02/days-inch-days-yard-days-mile-two/

This means that cars like this

http://www.evalbum.com/5048

that makes the upcoming Bolt look like an energy hog, could be built and sold legally.

 

[nutnspecial]

That's very positive! Up to 300+ vehicles a year though- is that just a token? I remember back to my favorite and most used car- the 12yo 60hp Honda CRX HF i picked up for 1200$ in 2001, and ran for 160k more miles @ 50+mpg (averaging well above 65mph, or in town) and @ negligible upkeep expense due to it's great simplistic and perhaps minimalist design. Just legally a 2 seater, the layout allowed easy transport of 8' long items, 1/2 ton plus of cargo capacity (on beefier coils), and even fit large things like the household washingmachine, all with the hatch still down.
15 years later, the same year and condition car would cost 3x or 4x if it can even be found; no thanks to legislation. How is this law going to help with anything that's cost effective and efficient for the masses(due at least mainly to quantity restr) when the orginal federal attitude and law remains? I don't know whether to laugh or cry :|

Maybe I misunderstand the way 'law' works to our benefit, but wouldn't it be more reasonable to work on rolling back, simplifying or perfecting previous law when evidenced as harmful or even just inadequate, such as in this case with the original intent of restriction? Instead it's just more laws, statutes, legislation piled on top of each other in a convoluted mess, making it energy prohibitive to decipher or uphold. This seems to be status quo- from tax code to business and corporate law to traffic and building codes. . .Not to mention practice of/towards: financial, insurance, medical, and food industry regs.

I stated this maybe 12hrs ago in another thread, and think it applies to my thoughts here:

. . .I have a problem when the 'messy mechanism' seems bent on safety regulating everything- regularly and repetitively in replacement of simpler, healthier, cheaper, and more logical encouragement and direction towards simple human togetherness, values, critical thinking, responsibily, and flat out impartialness and objectivity in study, knowledge, and living.

Furthermore, beside the part that demonstrably acts as above, there's the part that actually directly seems to blur, retard, cheapen, and generally discourage or even defile, confuse, or destroy aspects which are necessary for healthy society, while perpetuating the need for increasing regulation and dependence. It's my suspicion that these two 'sides' are the same of one coin, and there are no accidents in the results. . .

Just me?

 

[Scottydog]

Honda made a huge commitment to efficiency and low emissions in 2000 with the decision to design a universal fuel injection platform that could be used on all upcoming single cylinder world bikes. 50cc to 300, all of their affordable bikes have injection and a cat with an O2 sensor.

Not quite correct. They decided to phase out all their twostrokes and go fourstroke. Later on they went with injection / cats.

They were actually behind Synerject equipped bikes from PGO, SYM, Peugeot which were using efi back in 2004. I have one of these early models which I use everyday. I was surprised but the Honda efi models came out in phases a bit later 2007 or so. The Japanese market first, followed by the Thai and European markets.

 

[sendler2112]

True. The Corporate edict for a universal small bike fuel injection system was made in 1999 but wasn't seen in the Wave/ Innova/ CBR125R/ ect until 2007 apparently. The Innova is a great bike with most people getting about 140 mpgUS on spirit monitor.

 

[sendler2112]

Some interesting reading about the Honda universal 50-300 FI system.
.
http://world.honda.com/motorcycle-technology/pgm-fi/p4.html
.

 

[speedmd]

Honda has typically done just enough. Many times they have much more to offer then they make public. Interesting.

Direct gas injection is starting to make inroads in sleds and shows some wide spread promise.

 

[sendler2112]

Direct injection becomes a bigger advantage in engine design when coupled with turbos. I'ts not worth the bulk and expense for a fuel economy motorcycle. I could see the open class race bikes getting it someday though.

 

[Scottydog]

Honda has typically done just enough. Many times they have much more to offer then they make public. Interesting.

Direct gas injection is starting to make inroads in sleds and shows some wide spread promise.

This is true, some of the advancements were done to stem the import of cheaper imports from China. The Japanese, Thai governments would make it mandatory to be of a certain emission level and spec so that their home producers (Honda, Yamaha etc) would have an advantage as most of the Chinese products would be running carbs, no cat etc.

 

[speedmd]

Direct injection becomes a bigger advantage in engine design when coupled with turbos. I'ts not worth the bulk and expense for a fuel economy motorcycle. I could see the open class race bikes getting it someday though.

Turbo would work also. Small normally aspirated also. Rotax is doing it on their two strokes now. Certain that most will follow in one form or another if they are chasing ultimate efficiency /emissions level. Allows much higher compression ratios than can be had most any other way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu3NEPSBfUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awA753hWl-w

 

[Warren]

This seems as good a place to post this as any.

Solar powered fracking!

http://qz.com/618391/the-oil-industry-has-invented-an-ironic-new-use-for-solar-power/

 

[Dauntless]

And with all that the gas engine surpasses electric for your interest in this thread. (???)

The thing about a company building 300 ELECTRIC cars a year is that they could sell them all locally. Like the original automobile, more a local matter, you take it back where it was built to get it fixed. How nice. They should know how repairs are handled. Chalo made mention in an earlier post, it's still going to take millions a year to build those few cars. But it sounds terribly perfect to be trying to sell 300 electric cars a year to Hollywood. Some of those people buy them and don't really drive them, they're just supporting the fledgling industry and not worrying if they just bought something that's worth the money.

So the temptation is to think you can buy up a defunct kitcar where they made the shells and have a startup halfway developed. This one no longer has the sale page available, but I'm sure it never sold. I'm thinking the price had dropped below half of where it started. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20090907-6-054785.html As far as I'm concerned that's not a finished car, even.

So let's see, I set up 5 operations, building 5 models, we're up to 1,500 cars a year. Much the same components used in the lot of them. . . .

 

[Warren]

Dauntless,

I can't figure out what you are asking. I have no love for ICE vehicles. I posted the piece about solar fracking because it is insane.

Scroll down to the seventh ad on this old page. This ad for a Doran ran for several years, but is gone now.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150331123133/http://www.evfinder.com/classifieds.htm

 

[LockH]

I have a vision... of a future with roads all clogged with electric cars. (Very "green", don't ya know.) And when I die, I'll be hit/run over by a (large, heavy, fast, expensive to own and operate) electric car. How "green" is that!


(With apology to Martin Luther King Jr., etc)

 

[Dauntless]

Nothing to figure out, since I'm obviously not asking anything. I'm WONDERING at the shift of a thread titled 'Are Electric Cars Really Green?' into discussing gas vehicles. (???)

The only curiousity of your old ad would be which one it was, leading to assumptions of how the kitcar market really works. The story is that Doran built two in developing the car, the green one being electric. It spent some time in a museum, but they sold it off. But is that the SAME green one? The story going around is that noone ever completed their homebuild of a Doran. Just recently I saw pictures online of the '. . . .electric Doran next door.' It was red. But the red of Doran was gas. Perhaps there were a few customer cars built. I just assume there's a lot of plans sold but few cars built most of these. eBay, etc. always has someone's 20 year old plans for sale. The car may be novel, but it's just too big a job to finish in one's spare time.

To be MLK you're supposed to say "Dream," not "Vision." You could say you're run down by a car you never heard coming.

 

[The Toecutter]

Nothing to figure out, since I'm obviously not asking anything. I'm WONDERING at the shift of a thread titled 'Are Electric Cars Really Green?' into discussing gas vehicles. (???)

The only curiousity of your old ad would be which one it was, leading to assumptions of how the kitcar market really works. The story is that Doran built two in developing the car, the green one being electric. It spent some time in a museum, but they sold it off. But is that the SAME green one? The story going around is that noone ever completed their homebuild of a Doran. Just recently I saw pictures online of the '. . . .electric Doran next door.' It was red. But the red of Doran was gas. Perhaps there were a few customer cars built. I just assume there's a lot of plans sold but few cars built most of these. eBay, etc. always has someone's 20 year old plans for sale. The car may be novel, but it's just too big a job to finish in one's spare time.

To be MLK you're supposed to say "Dream," not "Vision." You could say you're run down by a car you never heard coming.

You might be interested in these drivable(at the time) electric Dorans:

http://www.evalbum.com/243
http://www.evalbum.com/559

 

[Dauntless]

That was great. The green one I assume is the same green one we always see. That other one had build pics, that's gotta be a real live completion of a customer car. Many a comment has been made online that it never happened. Meanwhile, he says he sold it to a guy in Missouri. Perhaps it's this one, three years later:

https://auraladdict.wordpress.com/2009/09/16/cross-country-trip-2009-continued-2/

 

[The Toecutter]

The Doran had a very inefficient body.

I imagine that an ideal next generation version of the Doran would probably end up looking like a larger relative of the Milan SL velomobile, but designed to seat two in tandem, and without the bicycle pedals. Use a carbon fiber-reinforced plastic monocoque chassis, motorcycle wheels/tires/brakes/ect, aluminum subframe, and twin E-Tek motors driving the front wheels with a 150 lb 144V CALB CA40FI pack. Such a vehicle would weigh in around 500 lbs, have a CdA of under 0.7 sq ft, potentially do 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds with no transmission geared for a 120 mph top end, and exceed 150 miles range at 60 mph while getting close to 900 mpge.

Basically, as if the Lynchmobile mated with an Aptera, smoked lots of crack, and this was its bastard offspring. :lol: