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astro flight..paranoia or good business?

j3tch1u

j3tch1u

10 kW
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
695
Location
Taipei, Taiwan
i know some of you guys have bought from them before without any problems so i was surprised at my experience. i placed an order for a 3210 with them back on april 2nd. i waited, and waited some more. after 2 weeks, i emailed them..no response. more emails..no response. finally, today i heard back. this is what they said:

> we are unable to sell to you in case you copy our design and make these
> items in your country,very sorry sir,we cannot accept your order,astroteam

>it has been a month and i have not yet received any word on my order (it still says pending). what is going on?
>
>
>Order Date: Thursday 02 April, 2009
>
>Order Information - Order #829
>Qty. Products Total
>1 ea. 3210 Astro 3210 Brushless Motor $399.95
>$399.95
>Sub-Total:
>
>$3.00
>Per Item (Best Way):
>
>$33.00
>8.25%:
>
>$435.95
 
Er, isn't San Francisco in the same country as Astroflight????
 
Are you of asian descent or do you have an Asian sounding name? If so, did you let it be known through your grammar or voice in a telephone conversation?

The reason i ask is I have a friend who was in this same situation. A European company wasnt willing to sell to him a high tech product because his email grammar suggested his asian origin. They refused to sell to him as they were worried about mass product replication under asian manufacturing, something that does happen. Telling them he lived in Australia didnt help. I had to order the unit for him.
 
boostjuice said:
Are you of asian descent or do you have an Asian sounding name? If so, did you let it be known through your grammar or voice in a telephone conversation?
Click to expand...

born/raised in north america. no on the grammar/voice. yes on the name. that was really swell of you to help your friend. i could have someone buy it for me but it goes against my principle.

here's what happened. i have offices/homes in taipei, union city, sf and toronto. i made the mistake of inquiring about shipping to taiwan (where i happened to be at the moment). they told me they don't ship to taiwan, china and russia (oops, there goes that contract with giant)! anyways, i told them if intl shipping was a problem they could ship to my office in cali. so i placed my order (us credit card, local ca sales tax and everything) and was left hanging in limbo for a month. to make a long story short, in the end all i got was a slanderous anonymous email that looked as though it was written by a jr high dropout. i was perturbed to say the least. i've plunked down over 10 grand on my bike..saving a few bucks by copying someone's motor is not in my grand scheme. i'm not even in that business! so now i'm off to find another supplier (the pletti looks nice) and redesign my drive system. sorry for the ranting. maybe this thread belongs in the toxic discussion group.

fyi astro flight: taiwan stopped being a copycat country in the eighties. they now have leading brands in semiconductors, computers and bicycles. if the us military can sell them a fighter i should be able to buy a motor!
 
Wow, that sounds like paranoia. Seriously, does a company think it can escape copy-cats? All it takes is one person based in the states...
 
Bob has been burned in the past, with having his motors copied in China and Taiwan. Cheap materials were used and the workmanship was crap. Anyway, he just about got chased out of the RC business.

PM me your details and I'll call tomorrow and see if I can get your order "unstuck". :)

-- Gary
 
GGoodrum said:
Bob has been burned in the past, with having his motors copied in China and Taiwan. Cheap materials were used and the workmanship was crap. Anyway, he just about got chased out of the RC business.

PM me your details and I'll call tomorrow and see if I can get your order "unstuck". :)

-- Gary
Click to expand...

owning a us company myself, i can certainly relate to that. i was probably just a wee tike when all that happened. but i can't see any reason they would jump to that conclusion--and there's no excuse for slandering and leaving me hanging like that. i'm a big boy and i can take no for an answer. i'm not even in the rc business (google me "ben chiu killerapp"). it's very kind of you to speak to them but i wouldn't want you to put yourself out. short of an apology from them i wouldn't feel right spending my hard earned greenbacks there.
 
Suit yourself, but if you do want one, let me know and I can save you some money, and I can ship them anywhere..

What wind were you trying to get? What setup are you trying to run? Pack volts? Gearing?

Also, for those interested, Bob is working on a sensor board that will be an option for future motors, and that can be retrofitted on existing motors. Methods is getting some new 18 FET "hard start" Infineon controllers that he will install 4110s into that will be a perfect match for the 3210s and 3220s. these will be capable of 100V/150A, at least, so it should make for some interesting setups. :mrgreen: We're both getting 7-turn/6-wire delta/wye-switchable 3220s, with sensors. These will have a kV of around 97 in wye configuration, and about 165 in the delta mode. Methy will run his on 24s LiPos (90V...), which will put out some ungodly torque. I had to tell Bob he was doing a motorcycle conversion, because he already thinks we're all nuts, putting 3210s on bicycles. :mrgreen: Mine will eventually go on my Townie, and I'll probably do 30s a123s (100V...). First up is getting my 12-turn 6-wire 3210 setup going on my Mariner folding bike.

-- Gary
 
I can unstick your order too if you would like. :D

Hmm, I have had some of my RC heli products copied in China as well. I do understand. However, a simple question would have been nice "May we ask the use of this motor?" Something like that.

I can tell you I have spoken with Bob and Michelle numerous times. They have both been great to deal with. They have a love for making motors and are very interested in E-bikes. Heck, they will also do pretty much anything custom you want.

I feel for you.

If you go with a Plettenberg, you will not be sorry. They are freakin costly, though. But, they are the best. I just do not think they are the best by that much margin. I have one right here I am setting up for a customer. I love the quality of these things! I just wish they cost the $600 or $650 they are worth, not $1,059 the heli version costs (plus shipping from Canada).

Anyway, I can ask Bob and/or Michelle what is going on if you would like. I need to speak to them about an order of mine anyway.

Matt
 
How funny that they may actually think that doing this would stop a copy-cat, can't these new models be bought on EBAY for a small extra charge over retail?

After WWII, modern axial jet engines were rapidly gaining acceptance, but the slightly less efficient centrifugal "Whittle" design was still useful. Russia desperately wanted whatever they could get their hands on. Russia bought some from England through a third party company in an intermediate country. Before the British finally caught on, the Russians had actually sent several worn engines back to England (again through the third party) to be rebuilt by the original factory technicians.

You can't stop the copy-cats, you can only concentrate on good customer service and producing a high quality product that continues to innovate and produce what the customers want.
 
I feel so bad this happened.

The last thing I want to see is Astro Flight rejected by E-bikers. They are unique in the RC industry in that they are willing to cater to us. Nearly every other RC company gets down right angry when you tell them you want to run their products in E-bikes. Astro is a very good ally for us.

The other day I placed an order for a client. While talking to Michelle, I asked how Bob felt about the E-bike crowd ordering from them. She said Bob loves making big motors and loves doing some unique stuff for customers.

Please do not lose hope in them.

Matt
 
GGoodrum said:
Bob has been burned in the past, with having his motors copied in China and Taiwan.
-- Gary
Click to expand...

Who? Would that be Mcree? I'm curious if this bob Guy might make motors appropriate for eBikes as I'm trying to investigate all the R/C motor makers out there. So far, I have... astro, grim reaper, plettenberg, neu motors, hobbycity variants, hacker and scorpion motors investigated.
 
:lol: OK, I thought when he said "He just got about chased out of the RC business", I took that to meant his RC business has pretty much diminished to moribund amounts and it seems Astro's ARF(What Gary has called an "ORK" / "OutRunner Killer"?) is talked about enough on the RCgroups forums.
 
I agree with Matt, Bob is a great guy and is a legend in the RC motor world. He's written books, and has been around forever. I've known him for about 10 years.

I also know Steve Neu quite well, and his motors are absolutely the best quality you can get, but he doesn't really have something quite as suitable for use as an ebike motor. If his 2200 series were 8-poled (they are 4-poled...), like the smaller "ORKs", they'd have more low-end torque at a lower rpm. I have a a 2215, but the kV is pretty high (435...), so Steve added a monster P62 german planetary gearbox. Here's what it looks like:

NM2215-3Y-GB-01.jpg


The assembly is about the size of a Coke can. the GB has a reduction of 6.75:1.

Astroflight motors have also always been of exceptional quality, and the 32xx series is well-suited for ebike use. Like the ORKs, these are 8-poled "inrunners" and have a large 3" stator diameter. This gives them gobs of torque, and makes them very compact. Another great thing about these is that there are so many winds available, which allows you to really optimize the kV to get the best efficiency and the greatest amount of torque.

Bob will also bend over backwards to accomodate doing custom setups. He's done the new 6-wire version for me, has moved the phase wire exit holes to the side, and is now working on an option for a sensor board, so these can be used with standard ebike controllers. Even Steve won't go THAT far. :mrgreen: this is huge, because it means we can run much higher voltage setups, with lower kV winds, which really maximizes low-end performance. As impressive as Matt's dual 3210 setup is, he's still only running at 44V. Wait until you see what Methos' 3220 does on 90V and 150A! :shock: :mrgreen:

-- Gary
 
Interesting review of the RC motor market and the seemingly fundamental individual people behind them. You mentioned the 3220 so I did a quick google search to get an idea of what these are being sold for, and I found http://www.astroflight.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=123 .

Is $800 a right price? Somewhere, I thought that astro's larger motors were going for $400.
 
No kidding. My twin motored bike is only built that way to overcome the limitations we are currently seeing in componentry for these RC motors. However, we have barely scratched the surface. The potential is way beyond my PK twin. Heck, with this technology (tiny motors with decent controllers) a reliable 50hp motorcycle motor that weighs 10 pounds is within reach.

The E-world, it seems, is poised to explode............

Matt
 
quick patent everything before we all get stiffed by the big boys :)
we do however have the advantage of using slightly above the legal limit? :twisted:


D
 
I agree, we are just scratching the surface of what we can do with these types of setups. The controllers are the limiting factor right now. If we had a purpose-built, sensorless controller capable of a 100V and 100-150A, like what the SHV controllers CC were supposed to do, we could make a whole new class of super lightweight motorcycles. :) There are several ways to get there, but it would be great if you could just buy something off-the-shelf. Until then, Richard and Luke are both trying to figure out how to graft an RC controller board onto a big FET power section, while Methods and I are looking into beefing up an "improved" version of the Infineon controllers to handle 100V and 150A, and adding sensors to the 3210s and 3220s.

What I'd really like to see is a 100V/100A controller that had built-in delta/wye switching capability. :wink:

-- Gary
 
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