Automatic Fire Ball Extinguisher?

Its probably better then nothing, but if the fire isn't put out before it spreads to the adjoining cells then nothing will put it out. The only fire I had was when I shorted out a cell A123 26650. Luckily i had a small bottle water and poured it over the cell, this kept the adjoining cells cool, the water didn't put the fire out but prevented other cells from going off.

The fire kept reflashing until all the cells internal pressure was vented. One cell catching on fire is bad but manageable if you can keep all the cells cool, more then one cell catching on fire and thats it, but the metal case looks like it can survive without catching the surrounding area on fire. The lithium fire is like a blowtorch, it will just blow the powder out of the way, same thing it did to the water, you have to keep applying it until all pressure is vented from the cell, which can take up to a minute.

I have a fire extinquisher but I don't think it would do anything for a lithium fire because of the reflash.
 
Powder does little to calm a li fire,.. you have to kill the heat of the chemical reaction .
The best way To SUBDUE a lithium fire is to SUBMERGE IT IN WATER.
Why dont you just plumb in a fire sprinkler with a thermal fuse to drench the batteries if a fire breaks out.
Seal the cabinet doors if possible so that the whole thing fills up in a few mins .
 
Industrial systems that remove all oxygen are not practical for consumers.

Dumping two tonnes of sand on it helps

or tossing it into the ocean or a deep lake.

Apparently the Kidde ABC fire extinguisher works better than others, uses a yellow chemical retardant powder.

But really best to assume it will explode and locate it accordingly.

 
I’d guess it’s very useful at adding to the mess, but that’s all.

When a pedicab barn burned down here a while back, the fire department had to spend all night putting out batteries that would suddenly flare up periodically after the whole building had been extinguished. I doubt any amount of dry chemical would have helped.
 
Yeah, I guess I will have the metal cab as the protection that if the worst case scenario happens it will at least be contained inside a metal cab and the smoke will be the only thing to worry about.
 
Why are you so reluctant to drown the flaming things with water. ?
The metal cabinet will not “contain” the heat, .
all contained packs will go thermal/explode, and which will then ignite the next nearest flamable item and then your whole shop / house. !
Drown the Bugpers !.... Its easy, cheap, and the only proven method !
..or you could invest your faith in this..
[youtube]4vbsIvwSBpI[/youtube]

PS.. this topic comes up regularly...the answers are always the same.
Here is last years typical discussion..
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=101414&hilit=Safe+battery+storage
And for interest,..this was a lithium pack in a “sealed container”
[youtube]nsBgDXHVorE[/youtube]
 
Hillhater said:
Why are you so reluctant to drown the flaming things with water. ?
The metal cabinet will not “contain” the heat, .
all contained packs will go thermal/explode, and which will then ignite the next nearest flamable item and then your whole shop / house. !
Drown the Bugpers !.... Its easy, cheap, and the only proven method !
..or you could invest your faith in this..
[youtube]4vbsIvwSBpI[/youtube]

PS.. this topic comes up regularly...the answers are always the same.
Here is last years typical discussion..
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=101414&hilit=Safe+battery+storage
And for interest,..this was a lithium pack in a “sealed container”
[youtube]nsBgDXHVorE[/youtube]
Click to expand...

I guess every pack in the cabinet will go with the one's burning but a metal cabinet will probably not melt and will just be a huge heat source (standing on 4" tall metal feet on marble floor) so as long as it's placed away from any flamable thing then I think it has the potential of just being a huge smoke hazard and better than nothing.
 
rg12 said:
t a metal cabinet will probably not melt
Click to expand...
YOu do realize that the packs in those cars are generally in "metal cabinets" of their own...but the fire is so intense it found a way out anyway.
 
Hillhater said:
You didnt answer the question...
Why not flood them to eliminate the heat risk ?
Click to expand...

It's for when I'm not there to do anything about it.

amberwolf said:
rg12 said:
t a metal cabinet will probably not melt
Click to expand...
YOu do realize that the packs in those cars are generally in "metal cabinets" of their own...but the fire is so intense it found a way out anyway.
Click to expand...

True but not all fires are so intense or happen exactly like that.
I've seen a video of a pack inside an ebike frame on fire and you hear the cells bursting one by one with tons of smoke but everything was contained.
So it's a matter of luck I guess so why not try to be safe if possible?
There is always a way to build a whole nuclear proof room that floods itself when a pack catches fire but there are limitations to what can be done in certain rooms.
 
A big pile of sand, enough to starve the ball of flame of oxygen, would be a lot more effective than just dumping water on it.

and if done quickly enough (based on temperature not actual fire) better chance of something being salvageable

than dropping the pack into a tub of water

both options also better at preventing damage to the surrounding property
 
Sand does not remove heat from the source..heat which spreads damage to adjoining cells and allows the fire to spread.
And it is no more effective than those sealed metal EV battery cases...which continue to flare for hours !
To be maximum effective you need to kill the heat..Water is the most effective, cheapest, readily available, aand easyier to organise than “a big pile of sand”.
How would you organise an automatic system to dump “sufficient piles” of sand into a battery cabinet ?
With a water deluge it is simple , proven, technology.
The objective is suppression, and containment, and hopefully saving lives and property,...not salvaging other packs..they are just collateral losses for the insurance to sort.
A serious battery fire is not something to play.. “try this” ..experiments with.
 
Let’s presume you are talking about lico chemistry cells.

Submerge in water is Ok if deep enough. A full 45 gal is OK for 1 kw/h
Pouring water on is not. It will cause multiple re-ignition, when the fire seem to be extinguished but starts again after a while.

Class B fire extinguishers are working. Class D (powder) is useless. ABC is OK but requires alot.

If the lico chemistry fire is from round cells, the risk of explosion is very high. The rule with lico is ‘Do Not Contain’. For this reason RC lipo or other prismatic lico cells are much safer, because they are free to expand and release gas. They are even safer with lower internal resistance and high C rate. Lico chemistry contained in round cells was a bad idea from the start.

Protection of surroundings during a lico fire does require exceptional means, like masonry for an example. Metal enclosures need to be thick, resisting 1000 F, with a gas evacuation directed to a considerable mass of non flammable material.

Lico is a dangerous chemistry because it does self ignite in contact with oxygen. From the beginning it was clear that it must not be charged out of direct supervision. Trusting a BMS for lico was a bad idea from the start.

The safest management of lico, is to be there watching when charging and discharging, then resting unplugged off anything at storage voltage.
 
MadRhino said:
Class B fire extinguishers are working. Class D (powder) is useless. ABC is OK but requires alot.

The safest management of lico, is to be there watching when charging and discharging, then resting unplugged off anything at storage voltage.
Click to expand...

So one can assume the ball is class D, even if it's something better there won't be enough. Not doing anything meaningful.

Exactly, though, how does he go about storing them without any chance of burning down the house?
 
Unplugged off anything, at storage voltage, lico chemistry can rest in a fridge for a very long time. An ebike with lico batteries on, should be resting outside of any inhabited premises and ideally, away from flammable materials. A smoke alarm should be nearby.

People who have no other places than home to keep an ebike, should use a safer chemistry. It could be another lithium chemistry. All of them are safer than lico.

Today, so many batteries are lico chemistry that it is almost impossible to follow strict safety rules. The industry and government regulations are counting on people being conscious of the danger, equipped with alarms and well insured.

Hopefully, we are in the last decade of large scale lico usage. We are about to abandon lithium for large batteries. The next generation of EV batteries will be variations around sodium metal, cheap, safe, and very long lasting.
 
MadRhino said:
....The next generation of EV batteries will be variations around sodium metal, cheap, safe, and very long lasting.
Click to expand...
we are not talking about “EV batteries””, We are talking ebikes ...and todays problems, not the future.
We have a saying down here.......”You’r Dreamin”...Mate !
Cheap,..Safe, Long lasting, you may be lucky to get one of those three. ( my betting is it wont be cheap !)
And ,..when exactly can we expect this “ next generation”. ?
..it sounds like the old ...“the cheque is in the post “. Promise ! :roll:
 
Hillhater said:
MadRhino said:
....The next generation of EV batteries will be variations around sodium metal, cheap, safe, and very long lasting.
Click to expand...
we are not talking about “EV batteries””, We are talking ebikes ...and todays problems, not the future.
We have a saying down here.......”You’r Dreamin”...Mate !
Cheap,..Safe, Long lasting, you may be lucky to get one of those three. ( my betting is it wont be cheap !)
And ,..when exactly can we expect this “ next generation”. ?
..it sounds like the old ...“the cheque is in the post “. Promise ! :roll:
Click to expand...

Wow, it’s like an echo of short-sighted folks talking about lithium ion batteries when they thought nickel metal hydride was as good as it got. Of course, what else would we expect from someone who thinks PV energy isn’t viable?
 
Balmorhea said:
Wow, it’s like an echo of short-sighted folks talking about lithium ion batteries when they thought nickel metal hydride was as good as it got.
Click to expand...
Hmm ?.. so that would have been back in the early ‘90’s when lithium first became commercial.
..25-30 years ago !
I am a realist, i stick to what is available, practical, and affordable ...not internet scuttle and sales patter.
So ..how long until the next (battery) revolution comrade ?
 
My guess is... 5 years.
Many are working on it. Ever heard of the ‘million mile battery’? The tech does exist for a while, production lines are coming. Lithium is way too costly, financially and environmentally. Sodium is everywhere, cheap and stable.

Realist ?
I use RC lipo myself since the beginning.
Realist enough not to keep them in my home.
Practical enough to charge them faster than my neighbor gassing his car.

Ah! By the way...
ebikes are EV too, for those who had not noticed. :wink:
 
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