Battery Explosion and Fire destroys OSU solar vehicle

[whatever]

I'm still using cobalts after many years on ebikes, I've had a few fires, there are some simple things can be done:
1. assume your going to have a fire at some stage is a good starting point design everything from that viewpoint
( solar challenge did not allow iron phosphates for some time........odd)
2. arrange the pack accordingly so that its not possible for one pack to heat another pack ( even a small gap may be enough to prevent spreading of heat to next pack)
3. arrange cells so that if a firecracker goes off the direction of the flame is not going to hurt driver or other cells. The cells I've been using are 5ahr in metal case, the fire always comes out the end of the cells in a certain direction.
4. packs should be able to be removed very very quickly, my experience is there is a gap between cells going off, you dont want to be moving a burning pack, extremely good chance of getting burned, but removing good packs whilst another is burning is possible ( i've done it!)
To completely burn a 100k value car is completely avoidable scenario, and expensive lesson for them .

 

[vanilla ice]

Firewall and fire suits are no brainers imo.. good luck entering an ICE race without those things.

 

[oatnet]

lithium iron nanophosphate batteries ... They are inert.

Lock

Hmm, inert. Doesnt sound much use as a battery chemistry then.

There is no requirement for the cathode to be explosive in order to store a charge, :lol: even though some if the choices ARE.

You do know that LiFePO4 is the current choice for a stable cathode...

 

[oatnet]

Firewall and fire suits are no brainers imo.. good luck entering an ICE race without those things.

+1

 

[Pure]

I'm still using cobalts after many years on ebikes, I've had a few fires, there are some simple things can be done:
1. assume your going to have a fire at some stage is a good starting point design everything from that viewpoint
( solar challenge did not allow iron phosphates for some time........odd)
2. arrange the pack accordingly so that its not possible for one pack to heat another pack ( even a small gap may be enough to prevent spreading of heat to next pack)
3. arrange cells so that if a firecracker goes off the direction of the flame is not going to hurt driver or other cells. The cells I've been using are 5ahr in metal case, the fire always comes out the end of the cells in a certain direction.
4. packs should be able to be removed very very quickly, my experience is there is a gap between cells going off, you dont want to be moving a burning pack, extremely good chance of getting burned, but removing good packs whilst another is burning is possible ( i've done it!)
To completely burn a 100k value car is completely avoidable scenario, and expensive lesson for them .

With what other available technologies that are available, how is any of this acceptable?

 

[SamTexas]

... The cells I've been using are 5ahr in metal case, ...

Are you talking about laptop 18650 LiCo cells? I'm not aware of 18650 cells with 5Ah capacity. The highest capacity 18650 LiCo cell is ~4Ah and that is quite recent. Before that, most of them are 2.6Ah or lower.

 

[biohazardman]

That’s too bad I just saw that thing at the Portland EV get together a couple weeks back when I had the only noncommercial e-bike there. I was wondering where the rest of you were. Thought the OSU solar unit was well done but lots of wires for sure. They spent allot of time and effort building that thing I hope they can improve on it with the new build. Makes me think that I have really mistreated my a123 M1s and they still work, charge and balance fine. Not to say I did not kill a couple with allot of werq naturally it was the weak ones that died first. ;^)

 

[dogman dan]

A short IN a cell? I misread that at first. I thought they meant a short in the wiring set off a battery pack. Like a bit of wire chafed somewhere or something. That sort of short is easier to guard against, but all too common too.

 

[oatnet]

A short IN a cell? I misread that at first. I thought they meant a short in the wiring set off a battery pack. Like a bit of wire chafed somewhere or something. That sort of short is easier to guard against, but all too common too.

That is the aspect of LiPo that scares me - when a manufacturing defect presents itself, and the cell shorts internally, the best you can do is eject the warp core and watch it blow.

-JD

 

[LiFe]

I agree. I am concerned that LiPo chemistry fires will get EV's branded as dangerous.

Yes, at least one car drag racer is set on using RC LiPo's in massive series/parallel. And the owner-promoter is such a blowhard that a car-b-que or worse is certain. Bekins Ron -are you paying attention?

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, I was worried about what could I do about a lipo fire when I built the death race bike. That bike, and my dirt rider both have open top battery boxes that make it potentially possible to do something about it if a pack starts swelling up. Once actually on fire, not much you can do without the blacksmith tongs. Maybe I could grab a stick real quick and save the packs that weren't on fire.

Building lipo permanently into a bike, or mounting it permanently in an enclosed box makes me nervous. Even the lifepo4 is carried in a way that could be ejected fairly quick.

 

[LiFe]

And in the "adding insult to injury dept";

"They are inert. They do not explode," he said of lithium iron nanophosphate batteries. "It's a cutting edge technology that is coming out and we will be adopting that technology."

The same person managing the program at OSU had been provided a well engineered modular battery pack composed of A123 M1 cells (2008).

Because, like fuzzy fizzix sez; The energy density was too low for their needs

So they removed the modular A123 M1 pack and replaced it with a home-built pack assembled from "TrustFire" LiCo cells.

EDIT: added the link to battery name and pack design, see slide 20.
http://classes.engr.oregonstate.edu/eecs/fall2010/ece111-001/SolarVehicle.pdf

 

[liveforphysics]

Neither trustfire or ultrafire even make cells.

They shrinkwrap discards and QC failed packs from Panasonic and LG.

Any team that choose these crap cells and then evidently never even tested them (as nobody who tests them would run them in something more than a flashlight) gets what they deserved by burning down.

Also, laptop LiCoO2 is a different blend than what a 3rd generation RC pack pack uses, which are higher nominal voltage, safer, low enough impedence to always stay cool, but more expensive cathode blends and worse energy density than could fly in the cut-throat 18650 market.

 

[John in CR]

Trustfire cells in an EV. LOL!!! What a classic FAIL.

 

[lcyclist]

Good that the driver got out in time.

Trust FIRE battery lives up to it's name

 

[E-bike4life]

"All that was left of the $100,000 vehicle, which Sitts was driving to the Da Vinci Days parade formation area, was rubble."

Wonder how he came to this conclusion of a short in the battery, sounds like they had a pretty good idea the cells they were using were crap.

It's too bad they decided risk a $100,000 vehicle knowing this and not setting it up to melt down without destroying the whole vehicle.

Kinda like running a nitrous turbo setup on a stock ICE with a gas tank made out of 2liter soda bottles installed directly aboved the engine.

 

[Hillhater]

I agree. I am concerned that LiPo chemistry fires will get EV's branded as dangerous.

Yes, at least one car drag racer is set on using RC LiPo's in massive series/parallel. And the owner-promoter is such a blowhard that a car-b-que or worse is certain. Bekins Ron -are you paying attention?

It will happen eventually for sure, but it wont be any worse than a fueler self distructing.
Lipo may self combust and flame spectacularly,..but i have never seen any "explode" in anything like the way gas, let alone a fueler nitro mix, goes off .

 

[Pure]

I agree. I am concerned that LiPo chemistry fires will get EV's branded as dangerous.

Yes, at least one car drag racer is set on using RC LiPo's in massive series/parallel. And the owner-promoter is such a blowhard that a car-b-que or worse is certain. Bekins Ron -are you paying attention?

It will happen eventually for sure, but it wont be any worse than a fueler self distructing.
Lipo may self combust and flame spectacularly,..but i have never seen any "explode" in anything like the way gas, let alone a fueler nitro mix, goes off .

Agreed that's one BIG BOOM. But the difference is that gas racing has over a 100 years of regulations to help make it safe"er" and for the driver to be able to walk away. Granted these same safety standards can be applied to EV racers, but it's still going to take some time and unfortunately, probably some more deaths for it to happen.

 

[E-bike4life]

I agree. I am concerned that LiPo chemistry fires will get EV's branded as dangerous.

Yes, at least one car drag racer is set on using RC LiPo's in massive series/parallel. And the owner-promoter is such a blowhard that a car-b-que or worse is certain. Bekins Ron -are you paying attention?

Agreed that's one BIG BOOM. But the difference is that gas racing has over a 100 years of regulations to help make it safe"er" and for the driver to be able to walk away. Granted these same safety standards can be applied to EV racers, but it's still going to take some time and unfortunately, probably some more deaths for it to happen.

I would rather see an explosion on a Drag Race setup where boundries are obviously being pushed to the extreme. These things happen in that type of sport. The place where you don't want to see it happen is on a city street where anyone can be next to it. OSU fail

It's just good nobody got hurt or this could have been an epic event that would've cast a dark cloud over EV's. Imagine it happened in the middle of the parade with hundreds watching and he did not make it out. I just hope everyone learns from this.