Battery Fire.

[MadRhino]

People using a fridge to contain a battery fire must have never seen one burn. They burn super hot and the foam insulation produces some of the blackest most horrible smoke you can imagine. Even if you house doesn't catch fire you'll never get that smell out.

Not in the house. I said in the garage, or outside. I bought an old 25$ small bar fridge that is metal inside and outside. I don’t know about insulation type, but I bet foam was not common at the time they made it. Lipo fire does make a lot of stinking smoke anyway, probably much worse than foam. It is still working, keeping my lipos safe at ideal storage temp. Hard to beat.

 

[craneplaneguy]

So, me flying around with up to three batteries in my small plane is a bad idea?! All risk is relative I guess, but I did make an aluminum streamlined tube for my two 11.5 AH batteries (all my batteries are from LUNA, Panasonic cells, good BMS's) that mounts outside the plane on the belly. But I often fly with the bike folded, in the plane, with the LUNA Mini 3 AH battery still in the bike. Plus I often charge it while flying, at a bit less then a 2 amp rate, using a 12 VDC to 58 VDC converter I had made so I could recharge inflight using the plane's wimpy electrical output.. Been doing for two years now......sure is fun, and a very handy setup. Let's see, gas all around, in flight, charging, what could go wrong?!

I also carry my plane's ebike, the Montague folder, in my PluginPrius, leaving it in there when parked, and also often charging it while going down the road. Is this a moderate risk, or absolute insanity? I knew all this before I started do it, and have heard all the horror stories and seen the videos, and do it anyways. It would really suck to have to go back to a pedal only bike in the plane, so would catching on fire of course.

 

[2old]

I've got two Luna batteries (52V, 10 ah and a mini, three and two years old, respectively), and store outside, but usually charge in the house. I've never heard of a Luna fire; with all the negativity about them on ES, one would imagine a really thorough report if/when one occurs.

 

[DanGT86]

I had been storing my Lipo in an old oven in the basement. The thinking was if there was a fire at least the oven is made to contain hot stuff so the rest of the house might survive. The oven is right by my basement door so I could wheel the smoke bomb outside if it caught fire while I was home. Last weekend my wife had me hook up the over for use as an oven instead of a battery safe. Go figure, using something for its intended purpose.

Anyway. I'm trying to come up with a safe indoor storage solution now because leaving them in a working oven is an accident waiting to happen.

What do you guys think of a steel box like a chemical storage cabinet with a chimney pipe going outside the house through the wall like a dryer vent? If 30amp hours of 20s lipo all went up in flames in a metal cabinet like that do you all think it would survive the heat or melt the cabinet?

My other plan is a wood stove with a proper chimney pipe in the basement but I'd really like the door to seal so all the smoke goes out and not into the house.

The idea would be some solution such that all of my lipo could burn completely unattended without doing any damage to the house.

Anybody have a solution like that?

Also has anyone ever seen a case where lipo packs exploded or caught fire just sitting? Not charging or discharging? Is there a single documented case of this?

 

[Philaphlous]

Dan,

Seems like liion batteries of any sort get a bad rap from the explosive nature of their failure. It seems though that it almost always equates to user error... If I overcharge my battery, duh thats my fault. If I let it self discharge or discharge it well below the minimum voltage that's also my fault. If I drop it, puncture it, short it on accident...those are all my fault and they stand a good chance of causing a fire...

The thing that got me thinking I need to redo my battery soon is I don't have any additional insulation for the positive side of my cells and I carry my battery in my backpack in public transit and leave it at my desk at work during the day...lol I figure any damage that might occur will occur while riding as I'm super careful carrying the battery or moving it... Heck I'm carrying an almost 1kw battery... So my new idea is to use cell spacers and encase it in plastic with additional insulators over the positive terminals and making sure all the wires and connections are done perfect...I figure that if I do this and operate the battery correctly there will be next to no chance of a failure/fire. I've had my current battery for almost a year and it's been going strong. I'm planning on upgrading the Chinese cells to credible Panasonic cells for the entire battery... That'll also put me at ease.

I also charge in the house and the battery is next to my back door. If there was any chance of a fire I could just kick it outside if need be...

 

[Hillhater]

Its very weird why the video footage is edited at 3.14. You see a charging cable at 3.13 and then there's a little blip and it's gone. Why would they want to edit out the fact it was charging?

On another forum, it was reliably reported that they were charging the packs (2x Tesla 6S modules ) using a 48v lead acid Fork truck charger !
No BMS, no Cooling, No protection. !
.....No surprise at the result !

 

[Hillhater]

This thread reminded me of a similar discussion a few years ago, and the solution i posted for a ultimate safe charge & storage system.....
Apologies to those who have seen it before, for the repost .

All these .. "Beware ..Fire ! " .. type posts recently, have left me with restless nights as my lipo is ( was) stored in the garage under my bedroom !
now i dont for one minute doubt my limited ability to take care of the lipo, but i decided a good nights sleep warranted a little thought.
..So, i "dreamed" up this "Total safety" solution to lipo storage.
A fully automatic storage, detection, and fire control / containment /suppression system, that can be done easily and cheaply by most lipo users.
I have the benefit of a large water storage device ( Swim pool) that should be capable of containing most runaway lipo events, but what i needed was a system for detecting thermal runaway, and rapidly quenching the problem.
Problem solved by a plastic carry bag, a piece of poly string, and a battery fire alarm !
The bag holds the lipo packs, the string suspends the bag over the pool, and the alarm is atttached to the string ( could be in the bag ?).
If the lipo decides to flame, it will melt the bag, drop into the pool, and set off the alarm ! :lol:
( actually, i have such confidence in the functionality of the system , i may eliminate the alarm to enable an undisturbed sleep ! :wink: )
The pool is maybe a little overkill, the Spa, or a bucket of water, or even the bath tub could be used for those in an apartment.
Plenty of room for improvements ( Gucchi bag ?), splash detector ? etc etc...feel free to adapt for yourself ! :wink: :wink: :lol:

 

[2old]

Dan, I saw a picture of an ebike burning on a local beach in Orange County, CA. Supposedly the bike had been purchased locally (wasn't from a well-known company) and was parked on the sand. Shop owner said he was going to China immediately to ascertain the origin of the problem (Yeah, sure!).

 

[MadRhino]

...Also has anyone ever seen a case where lipo packs exploded or caught fire just sitting? Not charging or discharging? Is there a single documented case of this?

Yep. At least 2 known cases on this forum. It is difficult to identify the cause when batteries are catching fire when they are not in use, unplugged of anything. Those cases are rare. Still, lithium alone does catch fire spontaneously when exposed to oxygen. That is why a puncture in a lithium battery will eventually start a fire. There are many reasons why a puncture could happen in storage: object falling, animals chewing them... a minimal puncture or short could have been done before they were put in storage, and finally caught fire after some time.

A fire safe enclosed storage is safe. The material used for a container must resist 600 F. Lithium fire temp is 377 F, but various other materials or gases added to lithium can raise the temperature of a battery fire up to 600 F. That is still lower than Aluminium melting temp. Steel snd any steel alloy, are perfectly safe. A vent to direct fumes outside is an extra safety of course.

 

[MadRhino]

So, me flying around with up to three batteries in my small plane is...

Not completely stupid with the safety measures that you are used to, but...

There are ways to be safer.
You’d be much safer with LifePo4. Everyone would. We use Lico for performance and weight saving requirements. Those who don’t need it, but use Lico chemistry to save money, are stupidly wrong. Lico is more expansive at usage, with extra danger as a bonus. If you need Lico for performance, you’d be better with prismatic cells because they burn without explosion. Containing lipo fire is pretty simple, but fumes evacuation should be a concern since your small plane does not have an isolated cargo area.

 

[mark5]

Rich Rebuilds: Tesla Battery Fire, What Went Wrong? (7:09)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of01p0Q-yUM
[youtube]of01p0Q-yUM[/youtube]

 

[Choppa66]

Watched this earlier tonight!! Think he's having some serious regrets posting that video by the sound of it!? Seems he's had quite a bit of stick about it from electric vehicle fans and the like. I wonder what 'Mr Tesla' himself would have to say about it!!?

 

[MadRhino]

Watched this earlier tonight!! Think he's having some serious regrets posting that video by the sound of it!? Seems he's had quite a bit of stick about it from electric vehicle fans and the like. I wonder what 'Mr Tesla' himself would have to say about it!!?

Well, it was obvious to most of us that he had posted his own stupidity. The cells quality is not responsible for a fire, for no cells would catch fire when monitored properly. Batteries are not dynamite. The heat build up is slow enough that someone monitoring would have stopped charging, moved them outside, avoided fire and most likely saved almost all the cells off any damage.

Still, very few batteries assembled of round cells are built such as the cells can be monitored individually. That is the main problem with round cells batteries: an awful lot of cells that are monitored by groups. One cell in a group goes bad, the others are hiding most of its faulty behaviour for quite some time. Proper monitoring can only be at the individual cell level, and LiCo does require proper monitoring more than any other chemistry.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

I've been charging ebike batteries for about 10 years now and never had a problem. I don't take apart and play with the inside of my packs either. I charge the pack in the corner of basement. Never had a problem.

 

[MadRhino]

I've been charging ebike batteries for about 10 years now and never had a problem. I don't take apart and play with the inside of my packs either. I charge the pack in the corner of basement. Never had a problem.

LiMn are very safe, as compared to LiCo. Then, everyone who had a battery fire, had charged for a long time without any problem.

I have charged RC Lipo for 10 years, abusing them as much as one can. I never started a fire, but I had to save them batteries from catching fire many times. I am always there monitoring charge. That is how to be safe with LiCo chemistry.