BatterySpace 37V/8AH Lipoly (pack cuts out at 20A sustained)

[Lowell]

3.3kg battery goes 20 miles? At what speed?

 

[Reid Welch]

Decisions, risks, stress management.

Thanks for your inputs. Everything is compromise.
I weight less for fire risk, and weight more toward compact neatness of form factor,
the least weight and the least general complication.
Only the "getting" seems complicated.

Desiring the higher capacity,
and for it all to fit in the original space where the Currie SLA box resided.

Desiring neatness for this bike.

_______________________________

OK, so look at this offer which appears in aiicsu's
"Show my ebike!!!" thread. I'll edit for cleaner reading,
changing nothing of his content:

A battery pack of 24V10Ah is made from 7cells of 10.5Ah,
the single cell of dimension is 8.2*126*110mm.

A pack of 36V15Ah is made of 10cells 15.5Ah,
the price is $388 with integrated BMS, charger included

The 37V20Ah pack price is $492
with integrated BMS, charger included

I suppose that the 37V20Ah is a 10S2P pack of first-stated 10.5AH cells.
The advantage of the large pack is evident:
-won't be running it down so far so often.
-will be run at no more than a 1C rate; a 25A max draw with the new Currie controller.



Assess now for Cost/Value, Useful Life, Internal Resistance, Highest actual terminal Voltage, etc.

I weight the factors toward my wants as already laid out.
This rules out drill packs and dozens of S and P NiMh if I remain in this stubborn Lipoly mindset.

"The 37V20Ah pack price is $492"

Presume that it can be gotten from China to Miami without loss of funds or trust.
Presume, please for this exercise, that the cells and pack are of standard quality.

Comparable prices per lithium W/hr?
He appears to beat them all.

740W/hr for $500 = .68 per W/hr

________________comparisons:
_____________________________________________
http://www.50cycles.com/catalogue2006.shtml
(lithium manganese)


370W/hr for $592 = $1.60 W/hr
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

high rate Li-cobalt for RC use

148W/hr for $420 = $2.83 W/hr
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

http://www.teamhybrid.co.uk/pages/batteries.htm

The 15AH packs will cut off between 10-11 ah used, this ensures that the pack still has sufficient capacity to prevent reversal, recharging of the battery will bring the pack up to full capacityin 4 hours.

(price not published at this time)
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

Perusing through Google, here's a bit of general information from Justin's excellent tutorials:

The above graph shows a particularly bad example of this from what was nominally a 36V 13Ah NiMH battery pack. You can see that at 10.5 Ahrs, there is a sudden 1.2V drop and then the discharge continues previously. Then at 11 Ahrs another cell drops out, and finally the pack as a whole begins to go flat. In use, you wouldn't notice the 1.2V drop and by the time the battery finally begins to feel flat, this one cell has already suffered a lot. You can see how it becomes a bit of a runnaway problem, since damage will reduce the capacity of this one cell even further.

Reputed companies that build the battery packs will use cells that have been individually selected to have identical capacity. Then all cells in the pack will go flat together and there is little risk of cell reversal. We have found that almost all companies claim that cells in each pack are matched within 2 to 3 %, but our own testing has shown that a significant percentage (sometimes over half) of packs have at least one cell that is will outside of this specification. In some cases, after a few cycles the under performing cell recovers and eventually shows the same capacity.
http://www.ebikes.ca/batteries.shtml

_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
http://www.users.bigpond.com/solarbbq/lithiums.htm

"Lithium Polymer Non-oxide Type Batteries"

price of batteries: $350aud for one 24volt 10ahr pack and charger

240 W/hr for $285 = $1.18 W/hr
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

Tyler's cost analysis for Emoli drill packs:

Milwaukee drill Emoli:

$380: Drill, Charger, 2 28V batteries -$75 HD coupon
Sell the drill on ebay -$100
2 batteries & charger for $205
Charger Value: $55
2 Batteries for $150 = $75 per battery

$75/7 = 10.71 per cell
$10.71/3 = $3.57 per Ah

28V / 3.0Ah = 84W/hr @ $75 = $1.12 W/hr

_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

to add: the Velectris (France) lipoly packs, generic and Kokam

Q: what's the name of the Texas ebike place that sells Puma motors and lipoly packs? I can't think of it offhand.

whew, thanks,

I hope aiicsu is around again soon.

 

[TylerDurden]

You might drop these guys a line...

They can custom build emoli packs to fit the currie.

http://www.bigerc.com/

Emoli 7s1p Flat Pack $119.65

 

[Reid Welch]

Oh, man, in another year the options will be so much wider and brighter for all of us.

Thanks for that lead, Tyler!
I've just requested a quote for 10Ah, 15Ah and 20Ah packs.

I think it will cost over my budget and probably be too large for the existing battery box space.

Let's see though,

Gracias!

 

[TylerDurden]

De Nada.


Looky tho, Ntl. Weather Service is predicting seven major hurricanes this year...

SO, don't come cryin to me about not being able to put up plywood, cuz yer bike is 37V and yer drill is only 18V. You'll just have to drill twice as fast and put yer pertty little hair dryer fan on the drill.

 

[xyster]

Looky tho, Ntl. Weather Service is predicting seven major hurricanes this year...

SO, don't come cryin to me about not being able to put up plywood, cuz yer bike is 37V and yer drill is only 18V. You'll just have to drill twice as fast and put yer pertty little hair dryer fan on the drill.

As those 7 hurricanes line up to take aim his way, at least Reid will be able bust a move outta there without harming the local environment :lol:

 

[EbikeMaui]

Decisions, risks, stress management.

Thanks for your inputs. Everything is compromise.
I weight less for fire risk, and weight more toward compact neatness of form factor,
the least weight and the least general complication.
Only the "getting" seems complicated.

Desiring the higher capacity,
and for it all to fit in the original space where the Currie SLA box resided.

Desiring neatness for this bike.

_______________________________

OK, so look at this offer which appears in aiicsu's
"Show my ebike!!!" thread. I'll edit for cleaner reading,
changing nothing of his content:

A battery pack of 24V10Ah is made from 7cells of 10.5Ah,
the single cell of dimension is 8.2*126*110mm.

A pack of 36V15Ah is made of 10cells 15.5Ah,
the price is $388 with integrated BMS, charger included

The 37V20Ah pack price is $492
with integrated BMS, charger included

I suppose that the 37V20Ah is a 10S2P pack of first-stated 10.5AH cells.
The advantage of the large pack is evident:
-won't be running it down so far so often.
-will be run at no more than a 1C rate; a 25A max draw with the new Currie controller.



Assess now for Cost/Value, Useful Life, Internal Resistance, Highest actual terminal Voltage, etc.

I weight the factors toward my wants as already laid out.
This rules out drill packs and dozens of S and P NiMh if I remain in this stubborn Lipoly mindset.

"The 37V20Ah pack price is $492"

Presume that it can be gotten from China to Miami without loss of funds or trust.
Presume, please for this exercise, that the cells and pack are of standard quality.

Comparable prices per lithium W/hr?
He appears to beat them all.

740W/hr for $500 = .68 per W/hr

________________comparisons:
_____________________________________________
http://www.50cycles.com/catalogue2006.shtml
(lithium manganese)


370W/hr for $592 = $1.60 W/hr
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

high rate Li-cobalt for RC use

148W/hr for $420 = $2.83 W/hr
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

http://www.teamhybrid.co.uk/pages/batteries.htm

The 15AH packs will cut off between 10-11 ah used, this ensures that the pack still has sufficient capacity to prevent reversal, recharging of the battery will bring the pack up to full capacityin 4 hours.

(price not published at this time)
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

Perusing through Google, here's a bit of general information from Justin's excellent tutorials:

The above graph shows a particularly bad example of this from what was nominally a 36V 13Ah NiMH battery pack. You can see that at 10.5 Ahrs, there is a sudden 1.2V drop and then the discharge continues previously. Then at 11 Ahrs another cell drops out, and finally the pack as a whole begins to go flat. In use, you wouldn't notice the 1.2V drop and by the time the battery finally begins to feel flat, this one cell has already suffered a lot. You can see how it becomes a bit of a runnaway problem, since damage will reduce the capacity of this one cell even further.

Reputed companies that build the battery packs will use cells that have been individually selected to have identical capacity. Then all cells in the pack will go flat together and there is little risk of cell reversal. We have found that almost all companies claim that cells in each pack are matched within 2 to 3 %, but our own testing has shown that a significant percentage (sometimes over half) of packs have at least one cell that is will outside of this specification. In some cases, after a few cycles the under performing cell recovers and eventually shows the same capacity.
http://www.ebikes.ca/batteries.shtml

_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
http://www.users.bigpond.com/solarbbq/lithiums.htm

"Lithium Polymer Non-oxide Type Batteries"

price of batteries: $350aud for one 24volt 10ahr pack and charger

240 W/hr for $285 = $1.18 W/hr
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

Tyler's cost analysis for Emoli drill packs:

Milwaukee drill Emoli:

$380: Drill, Charger, 2 28V batteries -$75 HD coupon
Sell the drill on ebay -$100
2 batteries & charger for $205
Charger Value: $55
2 Batteries for $150 = $75 per battery

$75/7 = 10.71 per cell
$10.71/3 = $3.57 per Ah

28V / 3.0Ah = 84W/hr @ $75 = $1.12 W/hr

_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

to add: the Velectris (France) lipoly packs, generic and Kokam

Q: what's the name of the Texas ebike place that sells Puma motors and lipoly packs? I can't think of it offhand.

whew, thanks,

I hope aiicsu is around again soon.

Those are made from Chineese GMB cells that cost $250.a pack FOB china. or $749. from texas.The problem is that you are lucky to get a pack that you will not find some unbalanced cells in that are damaged or week that will keep degrading the whole pack rather quickly.Who knows how long these cells have been sitting around on the shelf? = shelf life ?
http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/lithium-polymer-battery-volt15-hour-p-165.html

 

[EbikeMaui]

For many years my thoughts have been.... When the lithium ebike market is ready volume wise someone will have a THOUSAND 16 ah 36 volt KOKAM packs made.A safety pack with a heat sensor/voltage bypass BMS would need to be tested out at 25 ah contionus untill l80% discharged to 2.8 volts per cell and the rating would be based on the complete 80% capacity of the pack until 2.8 cutoff point after 300 cycles.This would need to be proven by numorus tests to be a GREAT consumer product that would be safe or as safe as gas ?
Remember that Kokam packs are about 4o% less in price if cou commited to 1000 packs a year.And a expected price COULD ? be
$350 a pack whosale ? Lets just see where this goes while trying to find cheep chineese solutions for tinkerers that need speed NOW!! It will still be some time before anyone jumps out there Like LEO from eBIKE did with a complete Lithium eBike Product due to high price, safety issues, and a real market that is ready to pay for the best. Bata Consumer Teasters will need Balls of steel and a fat check book.So will the Investor.

 

[EbikeMaui]

A reply to my reply LOL..

1. A light weight QUALITY ebike that comes with one 3.3 kg battery and will substain a 16 mph MPH speed for 30 miles of range (160 lb rider) without the NEED to pedal at ANY time. Ebike including battery would be 58 pounds....


2. Add a second battery at 48 volts with or with out a 20 mph speed limiter (top speed of 32 mph for off road use) a 20 mph average speed for a range of 50 miles at 20 mph. Ebike including batteries would be 65 pounds....


3. Three batteries at 75 volts with a speed limiter its still a 20 mph ebike but with more torque and more range! Up to 90 miles of range depending on your speed. 20 mph for 75 miles of range and up to 45 mph for off road use. Ebike including batteries would be 72 pounds....


4. A 500 watt to 10K kw peek (programable) with two sets of three batteries in series.To be used as a faster Moped , Motorcycle, Off road motocross bike or a 150 mile range ebike at 20 mph speed weighing a total of 94 pounds including batteries with a top speed of 45 mph.The same motor system thas HAS been well tested.A few products in mind include a ebike/moped/Motorcycle/Drtbike/Endruro racer/campground crusier/Campus Cruiser /old fart trike (add a wheel) LOL the list goes on.... but just ideas about all the uses of a single bike frame/motor/ usage just by adding batteries.

The other option would be DOT approved lights for moped ofr motorcycle rgeistration.DOT tires and rims could also be options.


For the same price as a E-Max weighing 260 lbs or more ? which would you prefer ? If and then there is a choice....

 

[TylerDurden]

For some reason, I think the trend will shift to safer, domestically produced chemistries, like emoli and a123.

Kokam makes a fine product, but the young lions might just come up and bite Kokam in the ass... butt good.

8)

 

[EbikeMaui]

For some reason, I think the trend will shift to safer, domestically produced chemistries, like emoli and a123.

Kokam makes a fine product, but the young lions might just come up and bite Kokam in the ass... butt good.

8)

If and when they do the RC guys will know first!

 

[EbikeMaui]

The whole point I try to make is that if !!! there was a high end ebike market or a e-Moped market just one type of frame and efficient motor system could be produced for multy uses.This would spur on a higher volume of batteries. This would bring all the prices down for both the batteries and a ebike / moped combo using the same parts.
This type of Complete product would DEPEND on the battery manufacture to have a SAFE RELIABLE product that will not go up in price or loose reliability.It would probably be best to merge with a battery company before considering a business such as this .
You can see here that the Chineese ebike sales have been spured on with new motor and battery technology....
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:L7Ajiy0OvYMJ:www.ce.berkeley.edu/~cherry/Publications/EVS22.pdf+china+electric+bike+law&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

 

[Reid Welch]

Thanks Randy. I rather agree.

BTW, http://www.tinyurl.com shrinks page-stretching urls to manageable size.

Here's your link again: http://tinyurl.com/3358v2
from 148 characters to just 25

Here's a link to the PDF original--easier to read.
It's one great article! Thanks for finding this, Randy.
http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~cherry/Publications/EVS22.pdf

 

[xyster]

from 148 characters to just 25

So it works on poly-personality poets as well?

 

[EbikeMaui]

Thanks Randy. I rather agree.

BTW, http://www.tinyurl.com shrinks page-stretching urls to manageable size.

Here's your link again: http://tinyurl.com/3358v2
from 148 characters to just 25

Here's a link to the PDF original--easier to read.
It's great article! Thanks for finding this.
http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~cherry/Publications/EVS22.pdf

How do you convert pdf to a html to go to the pdf like that? pdf magic ? better yet how do you put a pdf file on here?

 

[Reid Welch]

from 148 characters to just 25

So it works on poly-personality poets as well?

Halp! :wink: I am dog'ged mit der schizoid jokes.

Houngarian Fido, here's some better meat for ya,
ha ha,
vacuum packed
and fresher than myself, yes, it's everybody's favorite,
pig noses!

 

[EbikeMaui]

Have a BMS
http://tinyurl.com/2v8eaj
and battery
http://tinyurl.com/2q38pk

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Thanks Randy. I rather agree.

BTW, http://www.tinyurl.com shrinks page-stretching urls to manageable size

I don't care much for blind dates.
I'll gladly put up with the unmanageable size.

 

[Reid Welch]

Thanks Randy. I rather agree.

BTW, http://www.tinyurl.com shrinks page-stretching urls to manageable size

I don't care much for blind dates.
I'll gladly put up with the unmanageable size.

Oh, yeah?

OK, let's see again how a stupidly-long url tanks a page view:

 

[Reid Welch]

http://www.thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/wearejustdoingthistobestupidnowsincethiscangoonforeverandeverandeverbutitstilllookskindaneatinthebrowsereventhoughitsabigwasteoftimeandenergyandhasnorealpointbutwehadtodoitanyways.html

The moral is: redirect services with the eco-power of Photobucket-owned
Tinyurl.com will last and be reliable, much moreso than most urls it directs toward.

Long urls fork up page veiws.

If a member insists to employ a stupid-long url,
the remedy to save reader's from aggravation is to simply SHRINK
that url with the font button--and make the font size small enough,
even a 4 or 5 point---to make the page load normally.

Because long urls make reading texts damn near impossible.
Here below in a blur is the same stupid-long url in font size five.
It is necessary to space the [si ze=5] bracket from the url itself,
and also do that to the close-command.


http://www.thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/wearejustdoingthistobestupidnowsincethiscangoonforeverandeverandeverbutitstilllookskindaneatinthebrowsereventhoughitsabigwasteoftimeandenergyandhasnorealpointbutwehadtodoitanyways.html



hth
(hope this hurts)
:wink:

 

[Reid Welch]

Thanks Randy. I rather agree.

BTW, http://www.tinyurl.com shrinks page-stretching urls to manageable size.

Here's your link again: http://tinyurl.com/3358v2
from 148 characters to just 25

Here's a link to the PDF original--easier to read.
It's great article! Thanks for finding this.
http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~cherry/Publications/EVS22.pdf

How do you convert pdf to a html to go to the pdf like that? pdf magic ? better yet how do you put a pdf file on here?

Hi Randy,

All I did was go to your linked page and select to see it in its original form.
The option was/is there. And then I copied/pasted the link to the PDF.

When we do Google searches,
the returns leading to PDF links often/generally include an html translation
(which loses all the formatting and photos).

Hope this helps,
best to you, Randy,

r.

General note: when a page view is screwed by an overly-large picture or long url

then it's a courtesy to others to manually break our lines
by hitting the [enter] key at some point appropriate to prevent scrolling way the hell off into the right margin where only scrollers can even see what the heck was there. That's not my idea of fun, but this teasing my own thread to it's final death is some fun after all. I need a new battery pack--- and it won't come from BatterySpace.

 

[Reid Welch]

PS: the other way to employ the original url is to hyperlink the thing.
The commands are in bold black below:

you type:

then paste your url,

h ttp: /ww w.im db.com/title/tt0 043456/ ]

now type the hyperlink title text of your choice

close it all out with [ /url]

no spaces though, all in one line, do not wrap the line manually.

[url=http://www.google.com/search?q=define+simple&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a]simple.

 

[BrendaEM]

Sorry to necromancer, but in screenshot002cg0.jpg, I see a piece of Kapton tape that holds down a capacitor. Kapton tape is not cheap. It would seem that they know the chargers get hot.

 

[Lowell]

Nice to see 105c rated capacitors as well.

 

[EbikeMaui]

Nice to see 105c rated capacitors as well.

For a long lasting charger or controller it is important to have mil spec 105 C components when ebikes are concerned .The Chineese view these parts as too expensive for profit.Kinda the same when it comes to circuit design work. This lack of quality is holding up BMS boards and BLDC controllers for ebike controller and battery relibility. Untill a quality, volume, ebike company steps up to the plate to handle these issues you get what you have.