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Berm Peak dude builds his own Airless 3D printed TPU tires

neptronix

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Spoiler alert: they kinda sucked, however, they worked surprisingly well considering the construction technique. And he thinks he can improve them later. We'll see!


Absolutely nuts, i wonder if it is really possible to build an okay quality tire this way.
At the very least, it'd allow you to rapidly prototype airless tires, which could then be made with better processes ( tooling/molding is some work, so you don't want to have to do it multiple times )
 
3d printed stuff is never as good as the real thing. So it seems like using this method would be useful to sift "okay or better" from "substandard or worse". I do not think the materials limitations would allow distinguishing between "passable"and "awesome".
 
I have long considered various methods to make airless tires, printing them in TPU being one of them. The real issue that will be almost impossible to solve and as Seth found out is weight. If you didn't care much about weight it wouldn't be that hard to make a DIY airless tire that performed pretty well. It's the same issue every airless tire design I've ever seen has, and on many applications the weight doesn't matter (like a skid steer) while on others it does but you put it up with for the durability and make other tradeoffs to get there (mousse in dirt bike tires) but on a bike it can be a real penalty.
 
This makes total sense. Wouldn't be such a penalty on an ebike.

I'm not up to speed with 3d printers today. I know a big problem is strength due to how the materials are formed in layers. Is this still a problem with rubber-y materials like TPU?
 
This makes total sense. Wouldn't be such a penalty on an ebike.

I'm not up to speed with 3d printers today. I know a big problem is strength due to how the materials are formed in layers. Is this still a problem with rubber-y materials like TPU?
It is, but as materiel go, TPU is by far the best at layer adhesion. It'll still come apart, but it'll take a lot more force than with other filaments.
 
Spoiler alert: they kinda sucked, however, they worked surprisingly well considering the construction technique. And he thinks he can improve them later. We'll see!


Absolutely nuts, i wonder if it is really possible to build an okay quality tire this way.
At the very least, it'd allow you to rapidly prototype airless tires, which could then be made with better processes ( tooling/molding is some work, so you don't want to have to do it multiple times )
Yes actually! TPU tires are an active field of research:

Not really related to 3D printing, but eh.
 
This makes total sense. Wouldn't be such a penalty on an ebike.

I'm not up to speed with 3d printers today. I know a big problem is strength due to how the materials are formed in layers. Is this still a problem with rubber-y materials like TPU?
Actually, the much bigger problem would be rolling resistance: compressed air is a fantastic spring.

Even HER (High Energy Return) materials pale in comparison to compressed air, which is why high performance racing shoes tend to also have compressed air apparatus.
 
Yeah if you don't care about the weight (which I do) you can fix a lot of issues. For instance to try and hit a low weight you would use a stiffer material and less of it but most stiffer materials will start to run into fatigue issues sooner than TPU. Actually I think many of the airless tire prototypes and maybe current versions are made from Polyurethane, the PU in TPU.

Seth's failed probably due to designed stress concentrations and fatigue of the fairly stiff TPU he was using. Also those harder TPUs are not always quite so great, some give up a lot of durability for making them print easily. The pure TPU has very good fatigue resistance. Funny story I had a TPU printed CV boot on my truck for about a year, looked good as new when I finally replaced the axle. Getting stretched across the layers ever revolution.

TPU also is actually fairly slippery friciton wise, there are more grippy printable materials like SEBS but it's pretty rare. I think an airless frame with a standard rubber tire as the tread is the ideal solution to keep the grip you want.

The other way we see airless tires done is with really dense pressuized foam (like a mousse and some airless bike tires) but it seems foam does have a weird fatigue degradation as well where it gets compressed from cycling. Varies a lot based on the foam.

Not a problem for most bikes probably but another reason airless tires are limited is they overheat, hence why we see them on low speed vehicles, forklifts, skidsteers, etc. And again the tradeoffs sometimes have to be made so a mousse in your dirt bike means you have to be careful to not ride too fast for too long or you overheat it.

Then you have rolling resistance, not much you can do about this besides make them super hard. The magic of air filled tires is you are only flexing the thin rubber shell so even if you lower the pressure the rolling resistance doesn't change that much and the air inside compressing and moving around in a circle has very little resistance and is very springy. With a solid tire it's all flex so you also want a material with very good energy return in addition to all those other properties.

I have been thinking about this awhile have some ideas but there are still many problems to solve. I've been more thinking about the hybrid approach with air and other structures to achieve the properties I want.
 
Considering how well he did with little experience, it would be interesting to know what, if anything, the big tire makers are doing.
 
3D printers... When all you have is hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Spoken like someone who has never used a 3D printer. I have probably more tools than I should and I print more stuff than any other method. It just takes less time and the results are generally better due to part geometry freedoms. It's just all about the balance of tradeoffs and 3D printing has the least tradeoffs for more applications.

Sure the laser cutter is faster but you only get 2D and then design time goes up with lots of limitations to assembling things from flat sheets.

Fabricating from metal can be fast but only if you have enough of the right types of metal shapes and you are still limited to combining those into your final shape. You also have to spend the same amount of time on each part and the precision is limited by your skills.

CNC milling is great but not only do I still have to design the part in CAD, then I have more design limitations due to tool access, work holding, multiple operations. And then I have do to the CAM which not so bad but still takes a fair bit of time. Then I have to do all the setup with stock prep, work holding, tool setups, zeroing, etc, etc.

Casting/composites have good properties but I have to 3D print the molds/mold masters anyway plus the shape limitations and labor.

Rant over back to tires:

When looking at using foam vs fins for airless tires I can't see either getting around the weight. The pressurized foam of a mousse does sort of give foam that extra compression to weight ratio to help but then they have a shelf life even before you start working them and I bet many interested in airless tires want a tire that lasts a long time. When I was looking into making some airless fat tires there are some unpressurized (normal) foams that have impressive compression "firmness" per mass and they wouldn't actually be very much heavier than a standard tube but that only applies if your target is very low pressure.

Using foams with tubes in the hybrid approach like a tannus insert (what I'm using now) does have some up and downsides. You don't get full puncture protection but you do basically get full pinch flat protection. The pressure control is a bit problematic because as they are stock even at very low pressure in the tube you compress the foam a fair bit and so you don't have the two stage compression you would like. You can sort of resolve this by constraining the tube but it's tricky and I would say my results are OK but not amazing.

Some fin materials I think can have good lifespans. I've always liked the fin design because it offers an interesting advantage that you can make a tire really soft radially but axially resist motion. So you get a tire that has lots of grip and comfort but isn't squirrely and that's a pretty cool trick.

Maybe for a bike tire a fin approach of two layers of stiffness or material could be ideal and even work for road going higher pressure applications. So something like a stiff nylon PA6 section against the rim and a softer TPU section behind the tread. The stiff section only deforms under impacts while the soft TPU section provides that bit of squish for traction, small bumps, etc. Idea being you can use a stiff but less fatigue resistant material for lower mass and because you only deform it much under occasional impacts it lasts. Then the softer and high fatigue material for the part that gets deformed constantly.
 
Spoken like someone who has never used a 3D printer.
Come on, stop being such an apologist. My comment was about how retarded it is to make bicycle tires with one. Solid tires are silly enough without adding that into the mix. I mean what do you do when you want to go offroad, you can't air them down. Do you have 3 or 4 sets at home for different... The whole idea is all just a bit too far out of left field but no doubt the vid made the guy 20k out of YT commissions and paid for that hi end printer.
 
Come on, stop being such an apologist. My comment was about how retarded it is to make bicycle tires with one. Solid tires are silly enough without adding that into the mix.

3d printed items have such shabby material quality that they are a notch below rejects from a suitable manufacturing process. They might be okay for full scale mockups or rapid prototyping or maybe even proof of concept models. But no matter which material, it is the worst version of that material. This is an issue separate from the time proven fact that monolithic tires are terrible in every way besides flat resistance.

You know what else is flat proof? Rims without tires on them. That is the kind of virtue that solid tires have. True but still not what you want at all.
 
Come on, stop being such an apologist. My comment was about how retarded it is to make bicycle tires with one. Solid tires are silly enough without adding that into the mix. I mean what do you do when you want to go offroad, you can't air them down. Do you have 3 or 4 sets at home for different... The whole idea is all just a bit too far out of left field but no doubt the vid made the guy 20k out of YT commissions and paid for that hi end printer.
No I think 3D printing airless tires was one of the most reasonable ways he could have done it. The pros and cons of airless tires are irrelevant to the method he chose, literally the whole video and this thread talk about the problems with them as a concept.

The options to actually make airless tires are basically limited to 4 I can think of. You cut them from high density foam, you cast them from high density foam, you cast them from two part urethane rubber or you print them in TPU. As discussed many of the production airless tires are made from injection molded TPU so if that is the type you are trying to experiment with you are limited to printing or casting unless you expect him to build a pretty decent sized injection molding machine? Casting would be possible however casting urethane properties are often not exactly ideal not to mention it would be way more work to learn how to do reasonably advanced casting for such a project.

Also to be clear where my background and thoughts here are. I have extensive experience with casting urethanes (hard types, rubber types, foam types), I have extensive experience with production level 3D printing in exotic materials, I have ongoing experiments with alternative tire technologies (some even use 3D printing but most don't), I even somehow have experience with exotic foams. I do like Seth and think he runs his channel more honest and fair that most. I hate bambu and dislike when creators shill for them in videos but I'm also reasonable enough to separate what is and isn't a reasonable use of 3D printing regardless if it's sponsored or not. I also expect creators to take sponsorships to you know, actually make any money. To be so critical of a bike channel which expressly doesn't take any bike related sponsorships to not be biased seems pretty harsh.
 
Great replies!
3d printed items have such shabby material quality that they are a notch below rejects from a suitable manufacturing process. They might be okay for full scale mockups or rapid prototyping or maybe even proof of concept models. But no matter which material, it is the worst version of that material.

Hmmm i tend to think that 3d printing is great for prototyping and good enough for items that aren't in any way structural or subject to major forces. Maybe better than that if you can reinforce with metal / other materials.

You know what else is flat proof? Rims without tires on them. That is the kind of virtue that solid tires have. True but still not what you want at all.

So far, i unilaterally hear the ride quality/traction is awful.
I'll keep buying heavy Kendas until there is any actual hope on improving on the tire 😅
 
Airless tires seem like a dead end - they're competing with something almost perfect for the purpose it serves. Compressed air has no friction losses, the forces are distributed uniformly, it has perfect springiness, can be shaped in any way, will provide any pressure you need, and does not deteriorate with use. And there's no problem with recycling or disposing it.
 
i wonder if it is really possible to build an okay quality tire this way.
It is, clearly, but it's not really a practical choice that will rival a traditional inflated tyre any time soon. As you might have noticed, my personal pet peeve is tubes; tyres without tubes are nothing short of amazing; they are light, roll well, absorb bumps, are trivial to repair and easy to change. It's the tubes that make people frustrated with tyres, not the tyres themselves.

As for 3D-printing specifically: it makes it way easier to build a prototype. It does nothing good for the final product compared to large scale manufacturing methods, when it comes to cost, speed, quality etc. It's just an injection mold costs hundreds of thousands, and only pays for itself after thousands of tyres sold.
 
There are some limitations with the airless concept.
1) When hitting a bump with the airless concept the energy is absorbed in one isolated area.
With a pneumatic tire the energy is absorbed over the entirety of the air chamber improving the energy recovery cycle (hysteresis).
2) Shock absorption can't be micro adjusted depending for elevation, heat, weight or speed.
3) More wheel / tire weight always kills efficiency.
4) So far, all the airless concepts are open profiles making for perfect mud and muck catching devices.

True . . . flats are no fun and a sudden flat can be dangerous so it would be great to have a no flat system.
That said . . .
I always enjoy seeing someone creating, doing great craftsmanship and trying something new.
👏👏👏
 
There are some limitations with the airless concept.
1) When hitting a bump with the airless concept the energy is absorbed in one isolated area.
With a pneumatic tire the energy is absorbed over the entirety of the air chamber improving the energy recovery cycle (hysteresis).
2) Shock absorption can't be micro adjusted depending for elevation, heat, weight or speed.
3) More wheel / tire weight always kills efficiency.
4) So far, all the airless concepts are open profiles making for perfect mud and muck catching devices.
Ah but not all of these are negatives for all applications.

1) You see all energy being absorbed in one area and poor energy return as a bad thing but that is exactly what I want. I want to hit a bump and be able to control how damped the impact is and air doesn't let you do that. I want to burn up that energy so the tire rebounds slower, instead of bouncing off a root it just sucks it up maintaining maximum traction at all times by keeping the tire in contact with the ground as much of the time and over the largest area. In some applications the high energy return of pneumatic tires is actually really annoying, if you've ever ridden a fat tire bike over rough ground you'll know what I mean. Yes on a road bike this would be terrible.

2) Yes adjusting the shock absorption can't be done but you are really only changing the spring rate. With an airless setup you have more control over spring rate and damping but no on the fly adjustment, now with a hybrid setup you can control the spring rate via the air chamber and the damping via the material choice.

3) Yeah this is the killer but I don't know that it's always so close, yeah you are never going to compete with a light road bike tire but offroad now you are talking about heavy DH rated tires, often with inserts, and sealant. And maybe if I'm more confident in my tire setup being to take a serious impact I could get away with a lighter rim, less likely to worry about smashing an expensive carbon rim for instance. It all starts to get a little less cut and dry.

4) I swear they do this just because it looks cool, a thin sidewall I think would be plenty to prevent this and doesn't need to be anywhere near as durable as pneumatic sidewalls.

I'm not saying that airless tires are better, they certainly are worse for 99.999% of bike applications but instead of us all just deciding they are worthless and whining about all the issues I would rather talk about where the technology could be useful or maybe even where some concepts from it could be applied to hybrid systems.
 
Airless tires are solution to a wrong problem - it's not the air that causes problems, it's the rubber around it :)
Now we're cooking! We ditch the rubber and replace it with more air, like lots of air, maybe from some sort of big fan. We put that air on the ground to replace the rubber, maybe we add a little rubber back in to keep the air there. It's perfect, maybe we call it an air pillow vehicle or what about a floatcraft, maybe hovership?
 
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