johnrobholmes
10 MW
6s is much too low for anything over 500w or so. No amp limiting, small thermal mass, I will pass on it.
Best front hub motor for rc ESC
- Thread starter hillzofvalp
- Start date
John in CR
100 TW
Even if you get one to sync up well isn't the real problem the lack of current limiting with RC controllers? Sending a hub motor whatever current the windings accept before BEMF kicks in seems like begging for a motor meltdown to me. A 6 fet hub motor controller is definitely the way I'd go for a low power rig. Cheap, small and reliable...what more can you ask for?
johnrobholmes
10 MW
That is indeed the biggest issue. I ran a bafang for almost a year on an hv110, but I am light and was very careful about the throttle I gave it up hills.
In the long run I would agree that a 6 fet would be a more reliable solution for both motor and controller.
In the long run I would agree that a 6 fet would be a more reliable solution for both motor and controller.
hillzofvalp
100 kW
Okay... 
now I'm feeling like getting a friction setup working just so I could reliably operate electronics with hv 160, but then I'm compromising overall reliability with a finicky drive. I wish there was more known about exactly how far you can push hub motors with rc escs. If we could make it work acceptably, and rather safely, I would like to try. the 6 fet controllers just aren't that attractive to me right now.
Educate me.
now I'm feeling like getting a friction setup working just so I could reliably operate electronics with hv 160, but then I'm compromising overall reliability with a finicky drive. I wish there was more known about exactly how far you can push hub motors with rc escs. If we could make it work acceptably, and rather safely, I would like to try. the 6 fet controllers just aren't that attractive to me right now.
Educate me.
liveforphysics
100 TW
If you want to see how small they are, look at this thread:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24492
They are truly about the same size as an HV160, yet they are better suited in all aspects for your application, and cost about $30.
Also, if you wish to tweak it, you can make it operate on 100v if you wish, or put some crazy FETs in it that can handle all the current you would ever need, or run cool as a cucumber at reasonable current levels.
http://ixdev.ixys.com/DataSheet/8d18b55e-5b6a-4143-9d5e-c07c7fe1e64a.pdf
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irlb3036pbf.pdf
What's not to love about the little 6-fet?
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24492
They are truly about the same size as an HV160, yet they are better suited in all aspects for your application, and cost about $30.
Also, if you wish to tweak it, you can make it operate on 100v if you wish, or put some crazy FETs in it that can handle all the current you would ever need, or run cool as a cucumber at reasonable current levels.
http://ixdev.ixys.com/DataSheet/8d18b55e-5b6a-4143-9d5e-c07c7fe1e64a.pdf
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irlb3036pbf.pdf
What's not to love about the little 6-fet?
Drunkskunk
100 GW
hillzofvalp said:Okay...
now I'm feeling like getting a friction setup working just so I could reliably operate electronics with hv 160, but then I'm compromising overall reliability with a finicky drive. I wish there was more known about exactly how far you can push hub motors with rc escs. If we could make it work acceptably, and rather safely, I would like to try. the 6 fet controllers just aren't that attractive to me right now.
Educate me.
Maybe we can dress one up in a skirt, and put some makeup on it, it might be more attractive to you?
In all seriousness, If you're considering a friction drive over a Bafang just to keep the RC controller, you're either a super genoius that knows something the rest of the Ebike comunity doesn't, or you have some basic misconception of an Ebike 6 fet controller, or Ebikes in general.
A basic Inferon based 6 fet controller from someone like Lyen http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18744 can handle 20 amps and up to 100 volts. Its Programable from your comoputer,and compatable with Cycle Analysts for real time power management.
Modified, it can handle up to 40amps. at 100 volts, thats 4000w.
Physicaly, its about the same size as the HV160, possably smaller after the HV160 recieves the capacitor mod. But it's footprint is increased by the addition of the Case, which makes it weather proof, and is a heat sink, allowing the controller to handle far more current. If you propperly weatherproof the HV160, the case you mount it in will need to be about the same size as a standard 6 FET Ebike controller.
The 6 FET controller has active curent limiting. meaning you aren't going to fry the motor or your batteries if the hill you're trying to climb causes the motor to attempt to pull 150 amps. The controller will limit it to 20 amps, or what ever else it's programed for.
The stock HV160 may be slightly more efficent as a controller, but the diffrence in range will be likely measured in feet or yards in terms of total battery range. The motors you've chosen are Not the most efficent examples, and motor choice and driveline choice matter far more.
The only reason to run a HV160 is because you're using a High RPM sensorless motor. For a hub motor, its simply the wrong tool for the job.
hillzofvalp
100 kW
WHy does lyen's look like a power supply (lots of wires). Would I need all of those?
The castle creations esc is cute and pretty...and to me it is more ant-theft friendly.
I'm going to consult the club I just joined on campus to see if we could just build one, or maybe they have some go cart stuff laying around too. (btw Purdue Grand Prix has some of the most intense electric go kart races in the world---lots of know-how to go around)
The castle creations esc is cute and pretty...and to me it is more ant-theft friendly.
I'm going to consult the club I just joined on campus to see if we could just build one, or maybe they have some go cart stuff laying around too. (btw Purdue Grand Prix has some of the most intense electric go kart races in the world---lots of know-how to go around)
johnrobholmes
10 MW
You have certainly gotten enough input to make your own decision on the matter, and do know that both controller types will work. They have ups and downs for each.
The 6 FET can be built up as minimal or chock full of wires as you want. My personal one has wires for programming, throttle, Motor, and battery. Nothing extra.
The 6 FET can be built up as minimal or chock full of wires as you want. My personal one has wires for programming, throttle, Motor, and battery. Nothing extra.
hillzofvalp
100 kW
I'm gravitating back to reality now. I'm sure I want one of these 6FETs. I looked at lyen's buy link, and I could only see a 9FET option.
More FETS mean more efficiency right? at least in parallel?
If I go this route now I want to have a really good hub motor. I also might consider running 10-14s M1s. My new frame I just bought is aluminum without fork, and from what I understand aluminum ones will bend. Can I try carbon fiber? I think it would be weird to put a steel fork on an aluminum frame, but if I have to I will.
What is there to say about torque arms and aluminum forks?
More FETS mean more efficiency right? at least in parallel?
If I go this route now I want to have a really good hub motor. I also might consider running 10-14s M1s. My new frame I just bought is aluminum without fork, and from what I understand aluminum ones will bend. Can I try carbon fiber? I think it would be weird to put a steel fork on an aluminum frame, but if I have to I will.
What is there to say about torque arms and aluminum forks?
johnrobholmes
10 MW
With a bafang, you would be fine with the aluminum fork. Don't use carbon fiber though.
More FETs means more power handling.
More FETs means more power handling.
hillzofvalp
100 kW
are the nine continents the best hub motors?
johnrobholmes
10 MW
There is no best, it depends on what you are needing. The 9c is great for fast, but it is heavy.
spinningmagnets
100 TW
Since the majority of E-bike motors are 3-phase, the FETs come in groups of 3. The 6-FET is popular for many applications. But, if you are using a lower voltage, you may end up using more amps, so...how many amps will you be using? (peak, and continuous). The same controller can be found with 9-FETs, and also 12-FETs (same cross-section, more FETs means a longer controller). More FETs means you can run more continuous and peak amps without overheating the controller.
The 9C is a direct-drive (DD) hubmotor, and the Bafang is internally geared, so the motor spins about 5 times for every axle revolution. This means the 9C will have a higher peak amp-draw from a near dead-start than the Bafang. Of course, the flip side is that at higher speeds, the DD-9C performs better, and the Bafang will soon reach its limits.
There are only certain windings available off-the-shelf right now (unless you want to custom-wind the motor yourself, which some have done). The 9C has been run at up to 72V (just to show some of your options) and there are at least 4 different windings I have read about. I believe the Bafang only has one winding that you can purchase, and it is inadvisable to run it at over 48V (though some have done that, with mixed results).
I hope I have been helpful, best of luck with your selections...
The 9C is a direct-drive (DD) hubmotor, and the Bafang is internally geared, so the motor spins about 5 times for every axle revolution. This means the 9C will have a higher peak amp-draw from a near dead-start than the Bafang. Of course, the flip side is that at higher speeds, the DD-9C performs better, and the Bafang will soon reach its limits.
There are only certain windings available off-the-shelf right now (unless you want to custom-wind the motor yourself, which some have done). The 9C has been run at up to 72V (just to show some of your options) and there are at least 4 different windings I have read about. I believe the Bafang only has one winding that you can purchase, and it is inadvisable to run it at over 48V (though some have done that, with mixed results).
I hope I have been helpful, best of luck with your selections...
hillzofvalp
100 kW
I am running a123 M1s, so current is in great supply. This project is intended for no more than 5-8 miles max per charge, with pedaling, so I'm starting with 4-8Ah. I want to be able to accelerate really hard occasionally for fun. Since my 1420i can do 14s, it would only make sense to build a pack in multiples of 7 until I get another charger. Therefore, I'll be running 7s4p with the occasional 42V 14s2p. I kinda want to keep my options open for future upgrades, so maybe the 9FET would be better. It is important to mention that I will not be using the motor for low-speed running or starts. TAckling hills will be infrequent, and I can go 2-3mph human power when I do go up a hill (any assist is appreciated, but not absolutely necessary)
If i can order a controller from Lyen, I would like it to have both 7s and 14s modes (as in, have it adjusted to best accomodate both, or a flip switch or two that will give me optimum performance in either mode).
Is the 9C freewheeled? Is it quiet? ---- What is the best hub motor under 750W out there?
Is there a hub motor out there that will take a shimano 10 speed cassette? I understand that maybe a rear hub would be better for my new aluminum frame build, because I'll likely want to buy a carbon or aluminum front fork which are both susceptible to failure/damage with front hub motors.
Lastly, keep in mind that I now have no idea exactly where I'm going with this. I've never ridden an ebike (escooter though) and I don't know how well some of the cheaper options will run on my racing bike. I would suspect that I'll automatically get 4mph for using 20-23mm tires and strong racing wheels. This is where I think that maybe some of the endless-sphere member's performance estimations are a little low, for most on here are running big 40-60 pound mountain bikes and enough battery capacity to go >15 miles (which in itself would be greater for heavier, inefficient, high-drag bikes).
Should I start a new thread?
If i can order a controller from Lyen, I would like it to have both 7s and 14s modes (as in, have it adjusted to best accomodate both, or a flip switch or two that will give me optimum performance in either mode).
Is the 9C freewheeled? Is it quiet? ---- What is the best hub motor under 750W out there?
Is there a hub motor out there that will take a shimano 10 speed cassette? I understand that maybe a rear hub would be better for my new aluminum frame build, because I'll likely want to buy a carbon or aluminum front fork which are both susceptible to failure/damage with front hub motors.
Lastly, keep in mind that I now have no idea exactly where I'm going with this. I've never ridden an ebike (escooter though) and I don't know how well some of the cheaper options will run on my racing bike. I would suspect that I'll automatically get 4mph for using 20-23mm tires and strong racing wheels. This is where I think that maybe some of the endless-sphere member's performance estimations are a little low, for most on here are running big 40-60 pound mountain bikes and enough battery capacity to go >15 miles (which in itself would be greater for heavier, inefficient, high-drag bikes).
Should I start a new thread?
liveforphysics
100 TW
hillzofvalp said:
7s of LiFe is going to give you a big frown on your face rather than the classic EV-grin.
Seriously consider 14S4P of M1 cells as the bare minimum pack to be usefully sized.
Also, if you haven't bought your M1 cells yet, there are things in the world a lot better now for a lot less money. Like a pair of 6s5Ah Nano-Tech packs in series for 44v nominal, and the ability to draw >400-500amps if needed (or enjoy virtually zero voltage sag at reasonable current levels), yet the packs are small enough you could fit one in each pocket.
A 9C is a great hub for making a pure-ebike. If you're going to pedal with the motor off though, it's direct drive, so you're always cogging/dragging the motor.
It seems to me, a 6-fet and one of the smaller geared hubs, and a couple Nano-Tech packs is what would best suit your needs from what you've described.
johnrobholmes
10 MW
I would agree on a minimal setup. A small geared motor, 10 to 12s lipo, and a little 6 fet would make a bangin combo for assistance. Don't go over about 18 amps on the battery current and 45 amps on the motor current and it would be nice and reliable.
I just put one of these together for a customer today actually.
I just put one of these together for a customer today actually.
liveforphysics
100 TW
Curious John, if using Lipo, why make batt current 18amps and motor 45amps?
johnrobholmes
10 MW
So the little motor doesn't die a quick death! Phase currents (motor currents) could be a bit higher probably, that is just a safe number I have used on the bafangs for a long time.
spinningmagnets
100 TW
Order a spare set of the three plastic planet gears from the supplier you get the geared hub from, they are cheap. They act as a mechanical "fuse". Also get some type of temp probe, they are also cheap. You might never over-heat/soften/strip the gears, but if you do...useful to know the temperature they failed at, so you can keep the temps a few degrees cooler with the next set.
hillzofvalp
100 kW
I don't trust myself with lipos, as I might've hinted before. Big lipo packs like you're talking about are very dangerous. Also, they do not fit in my seat tube or down tube and, hence, are less theft-proof and the opposite of the minimalistic look I'm going for.
Will consider them, but I really really, don't want a fire, especially in a 900 person dormitory. I've seen a 2s 1300mah pack explode, and that was scary enough. A 5-6s 5000mah?
I'm looking into headway 32mm for batteries as well, but I've already purchased a small batch of 16 M1s.
Will definitely go for a geared motor, but only the one that will give me some pep around 18-25 miles an hour assisted.
Will consider them, but I really really, don't want a fire, especially in a 900 person dormitory. I've seen a 2s 1300mah pack explode, and that was scary enough. A 5-6s 5000mah?
I'm looking into headway 32mm for batteries as well, but I've already purchased a small batch of 16 M1s.
Will definitely go for a geared motor, but only the one that will give me some pep around 18-25 miles an hour assisted.
hillzofvalp
100 kW
Just had a nice first meeting with the electric vehicle club at purdue, and it turns out I have access to a whole bunch of 18650s left over from another project. (way more then I would ever need). So I'm going to run probably 28s5p or something like that. That's about a 20lb pack up to 100V. I like multiples of 7 for easier charging.
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