Best way to get 35kph from 200-250w? (Australian laws)

[jayzias]

Hi all,

I'm wanting to convert a hybrid bicycle with 700c wheels to an ebike. Quite new to the whole thing so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! I've searched the forums but am a bit lost in some of the technical conversations, and there doesn't seem to be much discussion on keeping it legal... Which I totally understand!

Basically, I live in Australia (with our ridiculous ebike laws) and ride on flat ground 95% of the time. All I'm after is something that goes preferably about 35kph on those flats (if anyone's familiar with the ezee forza, basically something like that). Happy with either pedelec or throttle or both.

It seems like the Q75/85 kits from bmsbattery might be able to do the job, so wondering if anyone has experience or better suggestions?

Thanks heaps for your help!

 

[Sunder]

If you want a throttle or want assistance above 25kmh, you're limited to 200w.

In that case, the easiest way to 35kmh is to get fit and pedal hard.

The Q100h run at 500w will get you to 35kmh. Thats a popular option, but its not legal.

 

[Ohbse]

How is the aussie limit actually defined?

There's a pretty massive difference between 250watt average and 250watt maximum. Likewise there's a big difference if you're measuring power at input or output. With a hub motor at lower speeds you could be pulling 1kw+ from the battery but still be on the right side of legal as measured at the tire.

Given how ridiculously difficult and exceedingly unlikely it is your bike will actually be measured, I say who cares - buy something capable of the performance you desire and if that ends up being legal, great. I started off slow and ended up riding daily at 6kw, cops think it's awesome - but that's NZ I guess.

 

[whatever]

They changed the law from 200watt maximum, to 250watt continuous, 250watt continous equates to approx 750watt peak or max. You can run 48v 18-20amp system and be close to 250watt continous, which will also get you 35km/hr, on a 700c rim, probably 40km/hr or slightly over top speed with brushless gearless motor. You can usually run a 36v brushless gearless motor on 48v and get a little more rpm without overheating it. If you've got steep hilly area probably geared motor better ( like bmc),
There are some issues though:
australian rta has basically said we are copying the eu regulations for ebikes, so although its 250watt cont ( 750watt peak) the motor is supposed to give you decreasing power the faster you go, I think from memory the speed limit of power assist is 25km/hr ( it could be 20km/hr I cant remember exactly). So although you can have a motor capable of 40km/hr plus, it is supposed to be limited to 25km/hr before power assist cuts out. So its still a crazy stupid law.
The police can check your power limit by timing how long it takes you to go a given distance ( as outlined in the eu regulations),
and calculate your power level that way, but I haven't heard of any police using that method.
Keep your legs moving if going fast and you should be ok, under 25km/hr no need to look like your pedalling.
Also congratulations on the rta and govt authorities on spending a huge sum of money over many years to determine our power regulations, and then in the end, they just said lets copy the eu regulations.........lazy!

 

[whatever]

heres the regs for oz ebikes:

European Committee for Standardization EN 15194:2009 or EN 15194:2009+A1:2011 Cycles - Electrically power assisted cycles - EPAC Bicycles

I"ll try find a link to one of the papers

 

[whatever]

there is a 200watt limit thread on esforum, it may have link to the european laws.
But it seems the motor can only kick in after you get to 6km/hr, and then it must cease at 25km/hr, so motor powers only if your pedalling ( pedelec type), damn stupid laws. I've just tried to find a link to the paper but all the website are trying to make a dollar on the downloads. I did download it some years ago, the " 200watt limit" thread on esforum is best place to look
brett

 

[whatever]

checked the 200watt thread, the link for the eu regs was here
http://www.vae-enov.com/fiches_2010/norme_en_15194.pdf
but its gone, I would have it on my old computer if you need it, I could dig it out.

 

[Lurkin]

If you have no power and want to go fast, the answer is gearing.

Is it ideal - no.

I've done the 250w thing - never again.

 

[d8veh]

The acceleration test has gone from or is about to be removed from EN15194. There's now no limit or test for maximum power output; however, the motor must have a nominal continuous rating of 250w or less. That means it must be stamped by the manufacturer or listed in a catalogue as 250w, or you'd need a letter from the manufacturer or vendor.

You can't have a throttle that gives more than 6km/h when you're not pedalling, so you need a system with a nice PAS, ideally with a normal crank-speed sensor so hat you can get full power by just turning the pedals.

There must be vendors selling ebike kits in Australia. If you get a 36v 250w motor and run it at 48v, it'll probably give the power and speed you want. You can buy the stuff from China. Most of the controllers with LCDs have an adjustable speed limit in the settings. The speed limit is the easiest thing or the police to check, so you have to be careful with that one.

 

[MadRhino]

If you want to obey the law, don't get into building a motorized bike for yourself. Very few have the self control to build legal. Almost every self made ebike that I've seen is illegal. Just buy one and be legal, or join the E revolution

 

[Lurkin]

All I'm after is something that goes preferably about 35kph on those flats

Which in Victoria, is illegal on an ebike. Assist would need to cut out at 25kph. https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/cyclist-safety/power-assisted-bicycles

Which defeats the purpose of what you want and being a power miser to be legal. Given you haven't identified where you are in Australia, it's difficult to comment further.

Rather than recommending this or that - how many ebikes have you actually been and ridden? I would try before buying if possible - if you are happy with 250w and money isn't an issue, I would look to a complete bike being probably a Haibike or similar. These bikes are expensive but are quality. A software delimited 'factory' bike would be less likely to attract police attention than a home build.

Alternatively, if you have a bike already, probably a kit from em3ev would be ok. There are other threads on here about who the more reputable Chinese vendors are, searching will locate them. I generally find its cheaper to buy from China and ship than purchase within Australia, although there have been exceptions to the rule.

d8veh, can you link to where one can find the current EN15194 and preferably updates to it? I would like to read through it if possible.

 

[jk1]

For 35kmh cruise speed the new 250w European limited ebikes are not what you want as they will cut power above 25kmh.

The old 200W peak limit is still legal and is better suited to what you want to do as their is no speed limiting, hence you can get full power above 25kmh .

A 250w mid drive on a 700c bike could be a good option, you will still need to peddle assist to achieve 35kmh but the motor will be helping at full power 250w vs no help on the new European rules. Mid drive is ideal as you can alter the gearing to get max efficiency at your top cruise speed.


Note the 200W is continuous output power measured at the rear wheel. So when measuring the controller you could limit to 250w on a mid drive and still be still fully legal, by the time you measure 200w at the wheel.

 

[TheBeastie]

Yeah look for a dubious 200watt ebikes like the guy that died on his ebike a little while ago was oddly close to a ebike store I checked out about a year before, the store sales guy was saying some of the 200w models go past 35km/h.
I asked how can that be and he said they come in with the 200watt stamp on them and we don't ask any questions..

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/cyclist-dies-after-crashing-into-opened-car-door-in-highett/story-fni0fit3-1226944580652

I checked out his website recently and interestingly I dont see any more 200w models on his website any more.

The problem with just sitting there going at 35km/h is that you have no adrenaline what so ever going through your body so your slower to react and more vulnerable to damage once you do get into a collision.

Moving your legs livens up your body and mind considerably even if your just merely dry pedaling..

 

[Sunder]

the store sales guy was saying some of the 200w models go past 35km/h.

I asked how can that be and he said they come in with the 200watt stamp on them and we don't ask any questions..

Hey, if you were in a carbon fibre bike with full cover wheels, racing tubulars, posed in a full tuck, head to toe lycra, teardrop helmet with a solid tail wind, 35km/h is doable on 200w!

A small hill wouldn't hurt either...

 

[whatever]

there is some misunderstanding here of the two concurrent laws:

old law: was 200watt peak ( maximum power)......that equates to approx 130watt continous, which might get you 10km/hr if your lucky. The old law is useless to anyone because its stated in terms of peak power. I tried to run a 48v motor on 200watts a long time ago, the motor would hardly turn on flat concrete surface ( that was in 16" rim also!), completely useless.

new law: 250watt continous ( equates to approx 750watt peak) but it appears they will not give a peak power level.
Lots of restrictions though: pedal first system required, no motor power under 6km/hr, no motor power over 25km/hr.

 

[slowhands]

Use two 250W hub motors, front and rear. Each is under the limit. Bet that is not prohibited by the law.

 

[Sunder]

Use two 250W hub motors, front and rear. Each is under the limit. Bet that is not prohibited by the law.

It is.

 

[Lurkin]

The laws are per state and the OP has not indicated where he is. Accordingly, you cannot identify what law applies specifically in his situation.

I cannot see how blanket statements made in this thread can be held true re law changes etc. This is exactly why I linked to where my information was coming from, being Vicroads, the relevant authority in Victoria.

Welcome to to correct me on this - with links.

 

[Sunder]

The laws are per state and the OP has not indicated where he is. Accordingly, you cannot identify what law applies specifically in his situation.

I cannot see how blanket statements made in this thread can be held true re law changes etc. This is exactly why I linked to where my information was coming from, being Vicroads, the relevant authority in Victoria.

Welcome to to correct me on this - with links.

I'll have a go:

The definition of a vehicle is defined under COMMONWEALTH LAW: https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2014C00051

That is, a pedal cycle is the same in all states. A power assisted cycle is the same in all states. A pedelec is the same in all states.

Under the uniform road rules which are overseen by the National Transport Commission, road rules between states are encouraged to be consistent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Road_Rules#Uniformity_or_consistency

However, each state is permitted to implement additional restrictions - such as QLD and NSW have. But get this distinction: They don't have the authority to redefine any of the vehicles under Commonwealth Law. They simply banned a certain type of power assisted cycle without redefining whether it was compliant or not.

We're talking about splitting hairs here, right? If a bike is compliant in any state, it's compliant in every state - but it can be compliant and illegal to ride.

 

[whatever]

I was under the impression the ebike laws are nationwide i.e. same in each state?

 

[slowhands]

Australian law says: an "ebike" can have a motor of 250W of continuous rated power which can only be activated by pedalling (if above 6 km/h) and must cut out over 25 km/h. If that is enforced in Australia, I can't see a legal way to get to 35kph on an ebike on public roads. Well, downhill with a tailwind, pedaling hard, sure.

But.... if you call it a "moped", not an ebike, it can go 50 KPH legally. So, do call it a moped -- you may need a license, insurance, lights, etc. I do understand each province has further restrictions so this may not work everywhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Australia

Perhaps the best way to "comply" with the Australian law is to use a small, inconspicuous mid drive or rear hub motor that is "labeled" 250w and overdrive it with a battery and controller that is not visible. I suggest a Bafang bbs01 (nominally 250w), or highly efficient rear hub motor design like the Bafang BPM2 or Mac 500. With appropriate power labeling. Ahem...
http://www.greenbikekit.com/36v-250w-350w-500w-8fun-bafang-motor-bbs-01-central-driven-motor-electric-bike-kit.html
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=40&product_id=52
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/348-bafang-bpm2-48v500w-rear-driving-bike-conversion-kit-ebike-kit.html

What a patchwork the laws on ebikes are, worldwide. Many are modeled on the EU laws, where there is a 250W/25KPH limit. But even in the EU, every country adds local rules.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#European_Union_definition

In the USA, Federal law limits power for "low speed electric bicycles" to 750w max and electronic assist to 20 mph (32 Kph) max. People who sell higher powered motors sometimes put in a disclaimer such as "for off road use only" (wink, wink). As a practical matter, most cops don't care about speeding bicycles. Electric bicycle laws vary from state to state. In California on public roads power is limited to 1000W, speed to either 20 mph ("motorized bicycle", no license but must be at least 16 years old) or 30 mph (moped, need M1 or M2 license). I assume the federal limit of 750W trumps the California 1000W limit in theory, but as a practical matter only local police and sheriffs would write tickets, so I suspect the federal limit is moot. All motorized Bicycle riders must wear a helmet, and must obey all traffic laws. But if a cop in California sees a motorized bicycle speeding with traffic, they pretty much ignore him -- if he has a helmet and is obeying laws. In theory in California a "motorized bicycle" must have plates and pay one time registration fee of $18. Local laws may add restrictions.

Other states are tougher; for example, New Jersey requires a license, meaning eye exam, written test, road test and nominal fees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Comparison_of_state_rules_and_regulations

Watch this youtube video if you think a helmet is a bad idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkReziS2u7E.
Darwin Award winners all.

 

[Lurkin]

The laws are per state and the OP has not indicated where he is. Accordingly, you cannot identify what law applies specifically in his situation.

I cannot see how blanket statements made in this thread can be held true re law changes etc. This is exactly why I linked to where my information was coming from, being Vicroads, the relevant authority in Victoria.

Welcome to to correct me on this - with links.

I'll have a go:

The definition of a vehicle is defined under COMMONWEALTH LAW: https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2014C00051

That is, a pedal cycle is the same in all states. A power assisted cycle is the same in all states. A pedelec is the same in all states.

Under the uniform road rules which are overseen by the National Transport Commission, road rules between states are encouraged to be consistent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Road_Rules#Uniformity_or_consistency

However, each state is permitted to implement additional restrictions - such as QLD and NSW have. But get this distinction: They don't have the authority to redefine any of the vehicles under Commonwealth Law. They simply banned a certain type of power assisted cycle without redefining whether it was compliant or not.

We're talking about splitting hairs here, right? If a bike is compliant in any state, it's compliant in every state - but it can be compliant and illegal to ride.

Good effort, but yes you are. You are detailing the origin of the law, rather than stating a fact about what actually ultimately applies to the OP. In any case, the origin, technicality and complexity of Australian ebike law is irrelevant to what the OP needs to know (at this time). It's very easy to get drawn into providing overly detailed legal explanations, the real value is in keeping it simple.

The simple question was "what wattage can I have" the answer is "need to know what state you are in". The relevant roading authority website is highly likely to have sufficient detail. Simple. The OP can always ask more, or better still, research it further themselves if they want to know more.

/thread highjack over.

The OP really needs to come back and advise whether he has want he wants, or whether his requirements have changed in the meantime, on the basis of the information provided.

 

[Sunder]

Good effort, but yes you are. You are detailing the origin of the law, rather than stating a fact about what actually ultimately applies to the OP.

Nice try dude, but calling it an origin story doesn't change the facts.

Show me the state where a power assisted cycle isn't limited to 200w max, and the pedelec isn't 250w continuous. You won't be able to. The state he is in is irrelevant with regards to the vehicle. It's only relevant regarding how he can use it, and the penalties.

 

[Lurkin]

Good effort, but yes you are. You are detailing the origin of the law, rather than stating a fact about what actually ultimately applies to the OP.

Nice try dude, but calling it an origin story doesn't change the facts.

Show me the state where a power assisted cycle isn't limited to 200w max, and the pedelec isn't 250w continuous. You won't be able to. The state he is in is irrelevant with regards to the vehicle. It's only relevant regarding how he can use it, and the penalties.

I was not trying to cause offense, nor was I in disagreement with the facts stated. Actually, it was a pretty nice summary - which is exactly what I previously wrote. Hence "Good Effort". There was no sarcasm intended. The implied question in the OP's original post was what I restated. The answer is more complex than just what wattage is required.

in conclusion: you still need to know where the OP is as to what ultimately applies to the OP, which is

relevant regarding how he can use it, and the penalties.

Which is the exact point I was trying to make.

 

[cj7hawk]

I haven't posted in a while, anyway, 35 kph is possible, but there's a catch, and you may need to pedal ( or need a tailwind... ).

First, if you want speed, 200w is the limit. BTW, 200w MAX or CONTINUOUS. Doesn't matter. Most people don't understand the difference anyway and are only thinking in terms of what motors are usually classified as, and don't understand how to offset back-emf. BTW, in WA, it's 250w MAX and 200w MAX for both types - they have the same limit, so in effect, they are measured the same way... That's not my opinion, it came from the Department of Transport ( yeah, that technically means 750w peak Pedelecs are illegal in WA, or 750w peak PAPCs are legal... Still not sorted out. ) .

OK, here's how you do it.

1. Get a 500w 48v hub motor.
2. Run it at 24v with a 24v controller. That's about 125w now.
3. Include a managed boost circuit to push about 36v at 200W out of a boost circuit. Wire in series between the battery and the motor controller.

You now have a bicycle that will put out 200w at about 32 kph. A little less at 25kph.

Why is this important? Well, wind resistance will limit your maximum speed to 25 kph in most instances, but tailwinds do occur, and you won't even feel a 3 to 6 kph wind. But that's all speed that will give you extra forward velocity. A 6kph tailwind will give you about 4kph extra speed, so you're close to 30kph. Get 15 to 20 kph, and you'll sit on up to 35 kph under power.

But, if you don't have a tailwind, then just pedal... The extra power from your legs will get you up to about 35 kph, without much effort. You can push on to 40 or higher if you're fit - the boost circuit will offset drag quite a bit, but not much beyond 40. There's more you can do, but it is a compromise unless you want to get really complicated.

Hope this helps - FWIW, I presently have what is the fastest legal electric bicycle in Australia... Does about 30 average on flats with gentle effort included. It also has a small petrol generator, so has a pretty long range - with better than 200 mpg economy.

You can read about it here: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68164&hilit=australian

It's not much of a bike, so it won't take you long to beat my record....

Good luck, let me know how you go -

David