What would YOU do? (warning: rambling waffley post)

[winkinatcha]

'Kay

Hellooo everybody... been a member here for a while, only really started posting actively in the last month or so...

i have read a boat load of posts, and threads and if I seem familiar or relaxed it's cos I feel like I have listened to years of conversations amongst you.

I have learnt more than I could imagine and deffo feel I am being carried on the shoulders of giants here.

Blah blah blah

Now I have just had what I would call a phenomenal stroke of luck/fortune coupled with a flukey bunch of timings.

This Monday I was made redundant from my job... due to a number of years there, and australian employment laws and a prettty fair company, the redundancy payout means I dont have to worry about income for approximately 6 months.

Without a clue that I was going to be made redundant, over the last 6 months or so,I have been slowly setting myself up to consistantly build e-bikes .

My original intention in getting involved with e-bikes was based around wanting to do 1 good build, a 48v 2kw rear hub build based on a Norco Atomica.

I got the kit from Hyena, but immediately discovered I had no clue, and an atomica frame is not something I wanted to break.

I love the bike so much that I wanted to learn about building e-bikes with some confidence before risking it.

And so I began accumulating e-bikes and components, both secondhand and new.

This included a surprise purchase a few months backof 30 simple 24v 500w kits (hubmotor laced in 26" wheel, generic controller, cutoff brake handles and thumb throttle).

I was offered a price I couldn't refuse for the kits, kinda out of the blue. I'd already purchased two, after being thrilled by the price and robustness of the build, and seeing potentials to run these at 48v up to 2kw. These potentials supported by all the good info on here.

My supplier just wasn't moving the 24v 500w kits at the same rate as higher voltage/wattage kits he has, I'd passed on a few tips to him about bicycles and builds, we had a good rapport and so he offered all his low voltage kits to me, and with freight down from sydney to melbourne, it all seemed a bit of a steal.

Long story short...

I want to start an e-bike business, preferably one that can help sustain me.

I am yet to sell anything, I am yet to advertise anything.

I have six months up my sleeve...

Pretty good workshop space that will be fully functional in a couple of days (Plus I have to get it cleaned up so that it can be used for a photo shoot for a fitness model, I shit you not). The space has already been used to build three kit based bikes in the last month. I have a farm-raised rev-head's competence with mechanics

In my dwelling, I have A room dedicated to hardware hacking from a computer geek past, with low level electronics knowledge and intermittent competence at soldering.

Stock:

15 rear wheel and 15 front wheel 24v 500 boxed from china "kits"

A shortage of high tech (lipo etc) batteries and chargers and am currently trying to source batteries but taking my time..

(only have one high current charger and 3 24v15ah LipofE4 pouch packs from Hyena), A number of hi tech packs that are currently disfunctional but may be recusable or prate-able. More SLAs than I can competantly use (though I do have a solar powered 12 volt system which can use all the SLAs in its battery bank).

have ordered a 24v 10Ah pack from Ping, and I will probably give Chris a shout soon.

Bike wise, probably two sellable builds, two brand new bikes in boxes, two complete 2nd hand e-bikes that need some lovin

A whale load of mid-range quality new bike components and heaps of refurbished cycle parts.


It is my plan to become very familiar with the wheels and controllers of the kits, starting first with the controllers.
incorporating and experimenting with such tweaks as modified shunts,( I want to be able to decrease max current as well as increase, so I can provide legal (here in australia) 250 watt bikes within the best of my capacity.) (Its my understanding that the legal wattage has recently been raised to 250, an extra %) WATTS yeeehah! but there might be a pedelec constraint, yet to find out...)

But with said legality, I also want to see if I can gain higher top end speed, I want to experiment with over voltaging using these controllers but beefed up with more robust components such as Fets and capacitors.

Possibly rewiring the wheels and adding cooling as well.

Possibly my own builds as I make em as well.

Value add to existing kits, looking to eventually build up a functional e bike business, or at the very worst, sell my current "stock" of "simple" kits, preferably to informed punters, without breaking the law or forcing the punter to do so. (trying to cover my arse here ).

I'm giving myself three months to go for it, without the pressure of "having to sell to survive". There are a bunch of processes and business stufff I need to get down, including, god help me, a business plan.

Post three months from now (getting in to our summer here ) I reasses, see if I am entirely up myself, undisciplined and crap or whether indeed I have a workable business.

Only two days post-redundancy now, I feel pretty darn happy I must say but, there are certain "dreamer" aspects about my personality...

I know we are all different, however I would really value members' opinions or thoughts of what they would do in similar circumstance, or even people who have tried and failed, or think "hobby status" is where we all should stay...

Cheers

Joe

 

[nicobie]

1st step is to open one of the 24v controllers and see what size caps are in it. If it has 63v ones you are fine running 48v batteries. That should up the speed a bit.

Good luck with the new business.

 

[dnmun]

ebikes are a hobby, start thinking strategic and where you wanna be working in 6 months, and start now to get there. always try to move up the skill ladder. use the ebike hobby as evidence of the ingenuity and skill you will bring to the next job. maybe it will be more techy, but there is no money in ebikes yet. so sorry you got terminated, that sucks, been there, done that. you wanna go higher though so focus on that and keep the ebikes as hobby until you are rich like rupert. or mr Burns as he is known here. BOL

 

[USAEBIKECO]

I agree. Give it 6 months of planning and start small. Read this forum throughly because any questions or concerns you have prolly been addressed already. Most of the moderators on here are very well educated and experienced on ebikes, you can always ask them.

But just so you know demand is there even in this economy, but there is LOTS of competition out there. You need to find a niche and offer something no one else is offering. You wont get rich selling ebikes, if you break even or turn a small profit your doing good. Most get involved with ebikes because of the passion for electric vehicles. (I am one of them)

Etrikes and Erecumbents might be a good start.

 

[winkinatcha]

Hey Hey thanks for the replies

Nicobie:

The guts of the controllers, Overview photo.

63v Caps, 12 FETS

Plenty of stuff to research there

edit: Note there are threads in E/S land that relate to similar controllers, eg:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36748
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37116
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35288

Am particularly pleased with the guage of phase wires and power wires.

Ya Lester:
That controller was part of the first kit I bought retail. I blew it up while making a hall/phase combo matrix... Why did I blow up the controller? Cos I didn't read threads properly, with wise head caution to LIMIT
THE CURRENT WHEN TESTING HALL/PHASE WIRE COMBOS!!! So yeah, much later n much E/S reading I now know I was a twat

I'm pretty sure demand is there too, even based on my own particular case of fumbling around trying to get a reasonable safe build and the uber steep learning curve that can involve.

dnmun:

Thanks for your reasoned words, mate. I am looking to help cement what it is I want to do in the first three months, and am bloody lucky to have a financial cushion and no dependants.

Even as a hobby, I can't justify owning 30 electric bike kits, and (the current) 5 working builds I have... Oh I can find excuses for having em all, but justification? no ... so I guess I am working on a baseline goal of moving the kits, which I plan to be ready to do so within the next three months.

While I dont NEED to sell them to survive, I am running with the opportunity to get to know the kits intimately and be able to provide universal mounting solutions, modification options and support, as well as building example builds...

From this early in the game, this is like "here ya go Joe, you don't have to worry about survival striaght up, go do what you want to do". Luckily what I want to do right now is get my understanding and skills up so that I can produce e-bikes that I would be happy and confident to sell and support.

But anyways, it is my first redundancy, so it is a new situation for me to understand what it takes to be self-employed... can't do anything if not learn

Cheers to yez all

Joe

 

[dogman dan]

I agree, you'll need a job bad in 6 months. A month off dorking around and enjoying a well deserved break is in order, but after that get cracking on some kind of gainfull employment. You'll make about 50 cents an hour at best for your experiments in the end. Selling ready to ride bikes is suicide without product liablility insurance, as is selling modified (power increased) kits.

But you have time now for some hobby fun while you continue your job search, and training to increase your skill set, etc. 24 kits to sell could help extend your cash cushion a month or so. Just offer em stock at a good price so they'll move, and keep a few for your own private experimintation.

If you do start a self employed buisness, find an unfilled need and fill it. An ebike hubmotor kit is a really full niche already. As is a high powered ebike, (bomber, zero, etc). You gotta find the niche in your town. It could be something really wierd. About 20 years ago a starving buisness student became the local dog poop removal tycoon by the time he graduated. Still at it to this day. Stole the market by actually showing up and doing the service, unlike the teen you'd hired before. For him, it was just that simple.

 

[jonescg]

If you want some decent powered LiPo packs, let me know mate

I got two weeks off and I can't frocking wait to get stuck into it in the shed. I'd dearly love to build e-motos for a living, but honestly I don't know how anyone in the auto industry intends on making a dollar. Big rich companies hit the wall like flies... crazy.

Worries about owning 5 e-bikes... Man, I haven't even built race bike number 2 and I'm on track to spend $35,000 before it's done. Money's good if you got a good supply of it. So keep the feelers out for more gainful employment in some months to come OK?

Best of luck with it!

Chris

 

[winkinatcha]

More stuff on the controllers:

This entire post can be summed up with the following line:
I have now run an unattenuated 24v 500w kit controller at 36v <=== (Note Big Grinny Smiley face).

The rest of this post is how I confidently came to the conclusion that this was a worthwhile thing to do.

Thanks to Endless sphere, I am learning stuff about
Electrics
Electronics
Physics
Application:
Specific e-bike applicable stuff
Specific “my kit” stuff

Physics, Electrics, electronics:

HubMotor specific:
Watts (power) = Volts (speed) * Amps (possibly torque)

Controller specific:
Controllers can be seen as current limiters, which accept a range of voltages and enable variable current.
Variation of this current , (via accelerator/throttle) provides a controlled application of a power range through a motor.

(Apologies if this a fundamentally incorrect view, also is “theoretical” so comes with the caveat that I am assuming all components (wheel mechanics and electronics and Controller electronics) can Handle the maximum voltage and current of a range.)

An adequate way to determine what the upper range of voltage a controller can handle, is via the voltage rating of the main controller capacitors, which should be rated at greater than battery voltage.

The Current range that a controller delivers, or the maximum cutoff current is often controlled using a shunt or shunts.

Most example shunts appear to be a special type of thick resistance wire, often in the shape of a staple, that is exposed on the upperside of the controller board.

They can exist as a single wire or multiple parallel discrete wires.
The resistance of a shunt determines the maximum current a controller will put out.
The higher the resistance, the less the maximum shut off current
The lower the resistance, the higher the maximum shut off current.

Modifying the resistance of a shunt affects the potential maximum cutoff current.
I have found two types of mods to shunts on endless sphere:

Manual modification of shunt material to change resistance
(Can provide both cutoff current Reduction and Increase)

Additional circuitry modification to reduce the level of the signal the controller uses to determine shunt resistance, by rerouting the signal through a rister based attenuator (trim pot or switchable resistance network.
(only provides resistance reduction so only provides a greater max current.


Kit specific:
My kit controllers have 63 Volt caps, Therefore theoretically they are able to handle up to 48v “pack voltage”

There are two shunt wires in these controllers

Controllers have a max current somewhere in the range of 25 and 30 amps
(I have blown a 25 amp fuse in extreme current conditions (fully laden unassisted uphill start from rest) but have not blown a 30 amp fuse in the same circumstances.)

Using 24v, 15ah LiPoFe4 batteries (courtesy Hyena), and with variable commute based riding, have done over 1000 km without controller or wheel failure, or even noticible warmth.

The kits were sold as 24v 500w kits, so around 20 to 25 amps seems about right for a 500 watt rating.

.

Conclusions:
Theoretically these controllers should handle a Max Voltage available through a 48v pack hot off the charger. (should be less than 60 volts, well behind the cap rating of 63v)

I have had at least 25 Amps provided by the controller through the hubmotor and nothing has fried or blown.

I should be able to reduce max current cutoff by half, by removing a shunt wire thereby doubling the resistance.

This could give a max current between 10 and 15 amps, which would be enough for me to Claim “legally a bicycle in Australia” 250w compatibility, with a 24v pack of unlimited discharge current.

Theoretically I could both remove a single shunt wire, AND attenuate the signal, giving me the possibility of a greater current range, limited by the behaviour of a SINGLE shunt wire to increased current draw.

Controller Goal

Interim:
To be able to provide controller modifications, so that a kit controller can be used to deliver legal-in-Australia assisted bicycle power in a voltage range from 24v to 48v. Whether ANY of these Legal configurations would be even vaguely worth having is yet to be determined.

Step 1
Test Voltage increase

Step 2
Test Current Decrease

Actions:
Tested with 36volts, No decrease in Max Current using 36v15ah Heyena pack configuration

In this configuration
Theoretical Power (watts) = Volts (36) * Amps (up to 25)

= 900 watts

Test Results:

Currently with the basic 24v kit, I can get a run of the mill pushbike to around 27km/h on the flat without peddling. Peddling on top of that I can "feel" the motor stop pushing at around 30 km/h

More Volts = More top speed

After plenty of research, I am satisfied that the bunch of controllers I have are capable of handling up to 48volts, though sold as "24 volt"... I have learnt how to attenuate (cut down the power output) through reducing the high current cutoff in the controller, though am yet to apply this learning, and have learnt how to increase the speed through upping the voltage.

I have now run an unattenuated controller at 36v <=== (Note Big Grinny Smiley face).

Partially the big Grinny face is because this is a modification that is very easy to do (disconnect the dinky battery indicator on the thumb throttle, and add an extra 12 volts in series to the existing 24volt battery)

Big Grinny face mainly due to this simple mod being tested without reducing currrent... meaning Increasing Power - Meaning around 750 watts which is a noticable boost from 500 watts.

And appears to come with a top speed around 35 kph on the flat.... have run the prototype with the 36v configuration up and down a 6 level carpark several times... the motor got slightly warm after a 6 storey climb, nothing to be afeared of. (I have run 2000 watts through an extremely similar hubmotor to the ones in my kits (same gauge phase wires in wheel and that thing got hot... not frying hot but past warm ))

Early days... tomorrow I have my Sunday Brekky commute to see what the range and rideability characteristics are, Am expecting the range readings to be a little out, as the prototype only has a max 43 tooth chain ring with a 14 tooth rear gear, methinks I may not be able to peddle fast enough to assist the motor at top speed, so will possibly using more juice than if I could peddle with the motor.

Obviously the brekky run will be entirely off-road due to my respect for the legal power limit laws, or else I will only run 24volts and carry a spare extra 12 volts Just in case

Joe

 

[winkinatcha]

Hey hey

thanks all for the replies and PMs

Chris, I'll get back to ya, promise... wot I REALLLY need tho, is 12v 15ah equiv batteries in modern battery tech. 12 volt is fundamental as it means i can start with a 24v base pack kit offering and provide battery pack mods in 12 volt increments....
I want to be able to provide e-bike kit solutions starting with a base 24v 250 watt "legal power in Australia" kit (expect I can do this with shunt mods on current 500 watt controller).

I expect, though am yet to prove it, that I should have a top speed of around 25km on the flat (with a BIG windup ) in this configuration.

From this "legal" base, I want to provide upgrades, both in the form of battery upgrades (12 volt additional battery upgrades to existing kit battery), and shunt based current modifications to "dial-in" extra power (for strictly off-road applications )

Without a doubt batteries are THe most expensive part of my current builds, approximately half the input cost. 12v 15ah lipofe4 costs me around $200 per battery. or did almost a year ago and may be more now.

To have reasonable range and power output without smashing the battery repeatedly I beleive I need a minimum of 15ah.

Anyways... so based on 12v batttery upgrades, I can provide a kit owner with simple and affordable power options...

from 250w to 500w, modified via shunt remaining at 24v, no or minimal cost to punter (controller mod)

From 500 to 750 watt... Requires battery mod of extra 12 volts + Shunt mod... cost $200 (tested and verified by me)

From 750 to 1000 watt... Requires batttery mod of extra 12 volts + shunt mod + some extra fiddling as my current voltage warnings are only valid up to 36v ... cost 200 (unverified)

So cos I'd be running 12 volt battery upgrades, I can offer 4 power ranges, incremental costs to punter to modify, with a clear upgrade path.... Meh sounds good when I say it eh, reality remains to confirm

Dogman:

This quote from you "An ebike hubmotor kit is a really full niche already." is kinda the area I am looking for a niche within, right or wrong, misinformed and doomed to failure or not.

My personal experience over the last couple of years, trying to source info and build hubmotor based e-bikes has indicated to me that there is a shortage on the ground (at least here in Australia) of people who actually build and understand e-bikes. There are a few people who do that here without a doubt, but there also seem to be a lot of people who are more interested in acting as importing houses and basically getting kits from china, selling the kits in the unopened box from china, and providing zero support. My supplier in sydney who is a great bloke, sends me a minimum of a customer a month that needs help to solve issues they have had with their builds.. nothing to do with the quality of the components of the kits, but as those who hang here and do builds themselves know, it is not generally a straight forward task to fit a kit to an existing bicycle, and the combination of bicycle mechanics knowledge AND electric vehicle knowledge is still a rare factor.

Maybe just maybe my build experience and intimate knowledge of my kits will find an audience here in Aus... maybe... It sure as heck is fun doing what i am doing at this early stage.. the Job search can wait a couple of months

Still in the state of "I have been given an awesome opportunity" No doubt as the money bcomes thin, if it does so, I will start singing a different tune

Joe

 

[dnmun]

you are looking at a lot of liability. if you sell stuff then people will expect you to replace it if it breaks because of your modifications, such as adding 12V batteries in series, and you are gonna be in hot water with the regulators since there is a 200W limit. the fines may be extreme in australia. they would be here if the laws were enforced strictly like they are there.

i really meant that you should study, go to school until you can learn enuff to get yourself up a grade in your job so it will be easier for you to support yourself and your family.

not sure how much physics you have studied so far, but you gotta learn more about electricity and magnetism as we call it, E&M, and then take circuits and electronics classes so you can understand how electronic circuits work and be able to diagnose problems or design new circuits. but mainly to understand what is already done.

just getting yourself to more training, being in classes and around other people pushing themselves higher will give you contacts that might give you a better job, with less chance of being terminated. plus if you learn enuff electronics then you can get work as a mechanic on a lot of equipment used in the core of the ozzie economy, in the mines and production.

you can still play with ebikes like everybody else, just focus on getting a better job, sooner is better, but if you have some support for this time, go straight to school, do not walk, jump right into it and push yourself higher.

if you need support in school, apply for it, you are still young and need to build a stronger and more valuable skill set to support you for the remainder of your life. being on support when young is easy enuff, but later when you have a family, it is not easy. so just go do it. all jmho.

 

[The fingers]

Accept help when you are young and starting out, no one will help you as much when you are old. Less chance of getting a return on the investment of time, money, and training, I suppose. "Wisdom is the principal thing, get wisdom!" King Solomon, Proverbs 4:7. Seems like you are starting on the right path by asking for advice.

 

[winkinatcha]

Hey guys thanks again for the replies

Okay I had better clear something up real quick lol

I am 47, I 'preciate that is young to some

I have a degree in Comp Sci and Psychology from 25 years back,

The job I was "redundified" from was as a senior technical writer for a pretty large software company here in Aus (IRESS Market Technology), total remuneration of around 80k per annum. Was there for six years, the longest I have been in any particular job.

Had a lot of jobs in my lifetime, from labourer to garbage man, jeweller, Technician, tape operator (yeah I was in IT BEFORE the interwebs, and when mainframes with tape drives still existed ), network operator, technical programmer, short order cook, kitchen manager, restaraunt manager, and several writing jobs. Had quite a few non-payed jobs as well, including a couple of years as a moderator for Australias highest ranked stock market forum... if ya think things sometimes get a little heated here ya should see what it is like when the stock market crashes on a forum with close to 100,000 members... woooooooh Nelly, death threats, threats of litigation, tantrums (mentioned so you know I dont get upset easily and am thick-skinned in general forum communications, and SHOULD be able to diffuse or cool down any accidental ire I may cause here through n00bishness)

Work wise, I could literally get a "survival" job tomorrow... was offered a job as a Pizza chef yesterday...

I have no dependents (unless you count my cat and stable of e-bikes )

Not trying to be a smart-arse here and apologise for giving the impression of being a young sprout.

Totally agree re learning more about electricity and magnetism, I have SOME electronics background, though mainly digital, and gotta confess I have started relearning circuits etcetera. I used to design and build circuits, but maybe 20 yrs ago so somewhat "scratchy" but what little knowledge I have has been tres useful in the last few months and last week in understanding the info in e/s.

What I have learnt about controllers in the last week has, if nothing else, made me realise how much more I can learn...

Likewise its my intention to go to trade school for a bit to relearn welding, or at least learn it properly, back when I was a farmboy in a pretty remote place in AUS where we tended to repair all our own stuff, the only welding I did was oxy acetylene and arc, n that was a few decades ago .

Liability is something I dont yet know enough about... and I appreciate dnmun mentioning it... I do have a couple of contacts with e-bike sellers, one in the CBD and one in the outer suburbs of melbourne. Both are interested in what I am dreaming about (or at least they have been happy to talk with me). I will definately see what THEY do about liability.

the whole issue of legality, I do understand is huge.

I have done some investigation (talking to the e-bike sellers) and the viewpoint is that they can sell anything to a punter, so long as they mention (in the case of above legal limit power) that the vehicle is above legal limit power and is there fore restricted as to where they can ride. The two sellers I know are very much of the beleif that it is the riders onus here, IE they have no fear that they can be fined for selling a vehicle with over the power limit, it is up to the punter to use the vehicle legally. The same I guesss for the more common motorbike sellers, if they sell a dirt bike unregisterable to a punter, then they are not liable if the punter decides to do monos up and down the major highways on it.

We actually had a recent crackdown on the scooter style, "can pedal in emergency" e-vehicles here in victoria, where they are deemed "not a bicycle" cos the pedalling is not the main means of propulsion. What did that crackdown involve? Fines for people caught riding them (which personally I think sucks, partic as the majority of users were older or disabled and were mostly using these things as mobility devices)

the fines?
Riding an unregistered vehicle
riding an illegal vehicle on cycle ways and shared footpaths
Riding unlicensed.

The people who SOLD these e-scooters? Not even touched, and no laws for the fined punters to be able to pursue the sellers.

Legality of "my" kits

My initial push is to try and get this kit in a form that IS legal assisted bicycle power wise (although modifiable "strictly for offroad use" to a power output of up to 1000 watts, with all the caveats that entails)
250w at 24v.. hopefully will be riding a test example today.

My current perception of the market in Aus is that the commercial e-bikes being sold are either "granny " bikes, that only really cater to a very small market, or High end B2B style bikes that cost 2 or 3k. I reckon in terms of my actual builds, based on reasonable bicycles with kits applied, that they actually could fill a niche that is pretty underpopulated at the moment, primarily for the 30km or less commuter.

Replacing/warranty
Again something I need to get cemented. I can say at this stage that the supplier whom I got my stock of 30 kits from and with whom I am in very frequent contact (I act as his support guy for the kits HE sells) has had 2 "component" failures of tech in his kits with around 100 odd sold. One was a controller, that I would not be surprised was blown by a customer, and the other was a broken magnet in a 1000w kit wheel.

Of the 5 kits that i have unboxed and built e-bikes with, the only probs I have had were due to my lack of experience and doing dumb things without the background knowledge. The end result... one blown up controller, and one wheel with scratches on the cover plate

I ahve damaged one battery pack by dropping an unshielded pouch based pack that managed to land on a bolt on the floor and impact one of the pouches. I deffo need to provide punter protection for the batteries for these kits, and is one of the areas I am working on.

It is my intention to keep a number of the kits unsold, so I can do "replacement" style warranty at this stage.

Regulation

As far as regulation by authorities re mods to kits... as far as I know, there is no regulation. the Power upgrade mods will be sold as offroad only, and this is an unregulated area.

In terms of legal power... there is not even a certification program at this stage to verify the power output of those e-bikes on the market.

Obv. still a lot of "homework" I need to do... but my current perception of the e-bike scene in Australia is:

there is room for more "on the ground" support, repair and building of e-bikes here in Australia.
There appear to be two types of ebike sellers, those with infrastructure and some support for the complete bikes they sell (possibly with kits as well) and those who basically import and sell without actually ever handling what they sell. The latter I beleive will provide ME with customers

There are very few places where one can test an e-bike and make informed choices about power and bike style

Most LBS's have NO IDEA about what to do with an e-bike.

Most e-bike sellers have NO IDEA what to do with a bicycle.

The current legal kits (250w) available are either based on poor quality bikes, or so blody expensive they are toys for the those who ar over-endowed, money wise.



So... all that STILL makes me think I can make a go of this...

we'll see

Joe

 

[Hillhater]

Remember, ..if you intend to "service" customers and facilitate test rides, repairs, conversions, etc etc.. you will need "commercial" premises , ie a shopfront & workshop etc. Those immediatelly add considerably to your costs ( overheads ) which you will have to add onto your selling prices.
So ,just make sure you work through the detail financials of running a "full service" operation as compared to a simple on line / Ebay , box retail business.

 

[Hyena]

Hey Joe,
Good luck with the venture mate.
As others have said if you want to make a living out of this you have to go all out.
In the legal or "near enough to street legal" realm there's a heap of competition so it's difficult to get an edge. It's also hard these days when anyone can google what you're selling (either exactly or much the same thing) and often buy it direct from the distributor overseas for the same price you can, thus making it very hard to make any cash out of unless you make a minimal mark up that's less than the cost of slow shipping. The advantage here is you've cashed in already on someone importation and saved yourself quite literally a boat load of hassle, frustration and money.

As you know I build high powered kits here and there for people - but at more of mark up. These are high powered offroad kits meant for offroad fun. Find your target audience and they'll happily pay the higher price for something they think is cool but don't know how or can't be bothered to make themself. Most of the the DIY crowd here laugh at the thought of paying $8000+ for a turn key stealth electric bike but stealth is still selling plenty of these to the public, initially here and have recently expanded globally with what appears to be quite a bit of success. If you want to make $1000 you either need to subscribe to the Chinese business philosophy of selling 1000 units for a $1 mark up or selling 10 units for a $100 mark up. I do the later because my time is valuable to me and I just do the odd bit here and there as a hobby and to fund my own tinkering. Trying to do it as a stand alone business is tough though if you don't want to work for a bowl of rice a day.

I don't have much else to say other than I'll return the favour and be your first customer to help get you started
I've exhausted my supply of "good" motors so will throw one of your "24v" kits on my wifes bike. I'll also be able to give you a better idea of what these controllers are capable of taking :wink:

Actions:
Tested with 36volts, No decrease in Max Current using 36v15ah Heyena pack configuration
...
And appears to come with a top speed around 35 kph on the flat....

Did I give you a 36v ? It was a 12S lipo wasn't it - should be 45v- 50v on a full charge
but around 35km/hr is about what you'd expect from 36v - around 45 on 48v.

 

[winkinatcha]

OMG the Mighty Hyena

How ya doing mate?

Hey you might remember I got two "sets" of batteries from you, both 12s, first "set" as two * 24v, second set as 4*12v (i was stuffing around at the time with trying to distribute the packs around a frame, plus looking to use em for other projects, so thanks to the fact you built these batts for me in multiple configurations means I can run from 24 to 48 (or more) in 12v increments.

Re top speed of these motors on 48v, I am a n00b as you know but ... on 24v the motors push through to 30 k/h ( you know how ya can hear a lower powered motor (no wind noise LOL), and feel as it is coming to max spped, and kinda stops making the howl?) Anyways, have done the runs on the 36v pack without speedo again... but I am purty sure I was getting more around 40+ (based on my ability to zip past lycras)... And was kinda speculating these motors might be a faster wind than most... potentially pushing around the 50 to 60km mark on a hot of the charger 45-50v pack. Dunno, need to collect real data, will put the goldarn speedo on tonight and take a build out for a night run

I'd be honoured for you to be my first customer, thankyou... I haven't the foggiest about posting/couriering these boxes but I know I did get the first two from Syd via Aus Post so should be Easy.
Hey just a thought... How about I send you one of the "250w" kits, initially gratis, and If you like the motors enough we could maybe do some kinda trade, kits for batteries (am thinking another "set" of 4*12v jobbies for 4 of my unmodded kits, n amybe a charger... worth a try and I am a chancer Anyways I guess that should be taken offline via PM...)


Ahh Stealth... Funnily enough their main factory here in Melb is about 10kms away and I still haven't dropped by, wanted to have SOME sort of quality kw+ build so they wouldn't laugh too hard when I rock up (not that I am trying to get em innerested in my small time stuff AT ALL, but you know e-bike peeps, always "can I have a go?"


Personally I think you are gonna wet yerself when you see these motors but I AM talking my own book.

I think the controllers are nothing special, but if YOU give one the royal treatment I'd be rapt to know your findings.

Yahh I am under no illusions that it will be a matter of me just raising my hand and customers come flocking... but I am knees to the breeze flat out doing wot I love at the moment ooooh Yeah!

Hey HillHater


thanks for your reply mate,

yerp, I hafta start small but I am in an interesting position, living on top of a shop, with lane access to my back yard, and a landlord who has suggested I might want to take over the Double + garage out the back (roller door straight onto a paved lane, which quite frankly I WANT to do and would give me something like 4 metres by 12 metres of undercover, securable punter accessible "showroom" space. I already rent a third of the garage set up as my workshop... can only really work on one bike at a time in the space, but it is dedicated to the mechanical side of the builds... I ahve a storage shed about 6kms away rent paid for 6 mths, that holds all my kits, and a couple of bikes still in boxes waiting to be built... tho not convenient, definately helps with thes queeze of "owning" 7 plus builds at the moment ( Three working, kit based, one "commercial" build that is 90% rebuilt by me, one build (my first 2kw machine) in the process of stripping down, another commercial 24v external motor jobby that I ahven't ridden in a year, plus my electric trike, which is basically my Ute). Actually the more I think about it the more I prolly should find out what my landlord wants for the garage...... he is a top bloke an Ya never know I may find it worth a try for 6 mnths... hmm



for "testing" I ahve a smooth paved laneway with an area two lanes wide that gets sweet FA of vehicular or ped traffic, (brick pavers, not cobblestones car traffic mainly delivery vehicles for the restaraust that surround me, or worker parking at set times)) and one small area of ped traffic... 200 metres from the lane (via footpath) is a six story undercover carpark that is never more than 1/4 full and I currently use to test my builds, 200 metres from that, via walk way cycle way with one road crossing is a recreation park with about 600 metres of compressed tan track, a kilometer away in the opposite direction is another park with 3km of track, and across the road is a bitumen based shared cycle track walkway that runs for about 2kms... So in terms of places for people to "have a go" so to speak (under my supervision of course), I actually dont need much more than what I already have.

It appears as though expansion, should I earn the ability to do so, is not gonna be too hard for the first stage of getting commercial workable space...

Cheers everyone, lovin the feedback large
Joe

 

[winkinatcha]

Yup Confirmed, Hyena knows his shizzle, 35 km/h, maxspeed with knobby front MTB tyre

On same straightaway, 33km/hr one way, 37km/hr the other. Prolly 200-300 metres to "wind up" :lol:
Joe

 

[Hyena]

No need for freebies mate, that defeats the purpose. Besides one day when you're a big time ebike tycoon I can brag I got you started. haha

Ah I forgot about configuring the packs like that, I remember now. My memory is a bit shot courtesy of all the chemo I've had!
Aus post isn't much chop for sending laced hub motors, technically they won't ship them as the girth is bigger than they allow but I've had a few shipped to me by others so I guess unless they pull out the tape measure at the local PO you should be right. I'll PM you some better courier options though. Likewise I'll shoot you some battery options but I'd be a bit cautious about selling lipo packs to total noobs. You'd be better to spend a bit more on commercially made lifepo4 packs. These are largely shit for hot rodding but fine for around the 200-500w mark.

Re: the speed, often the "24v" models are a faster wind so they still do ~30km/hr on 24v. I've also seen 48v "500w" motors that do the same 30km/hr but use a faster wind. These have more torque but you can still get good torque from the speedier ones with more current.

 

[winkinatcha]

Cool info, thanks mate.

Yah I have my first Ping 24v 10ah LiPoFe4 on order, should be here in another couple of weeks. looking for that as the fist stage 250 to 500w base battery, possibly dreaming at that low ah tho for 500w

Was looking in to making actual battery isolation/cutoff circuitry for the lipo, and adding a hand held balancer to the LiPo options for the "more Oomph" kits. Using Hyena Supplied Fast Chargers of course

Joe

 

[Dreddydave]

Best of luck with it all Joe! I've always thought I'd love to do something similar, but have neither the spare funds or time (of which you have both). There's definitely a hole in the market here for lower cost and semi-knowledgeable ebike kit installer/repairers.

Customers would probably pay a premium for a completed bike or "kit with installation" because they just don't want the hassle, or they don't want them installed on a cheap chinese import bike. Keeping spares for quick warranty replacements is probably a good idea, but keeping it as a back-to-base warranty is probably safest because you can suss out how the old part burnt out; and you don't have to worry about shipping batteries and wondering if the customer is going to wire them up incorrectly.

My bike has wires going everywhere, but that's ok because I know where they're all going. My 2 cents is that if you're selling a complete bike or kit for a customer, package it like an iPhone; enclose anything that could fray or break, and make it as simple as possible. That way, customers that want to hack it can void their warranty and help themselves, while others will pay the premium for you to do the "upgrades" for them. And if they're initially buying it as a 200/250w kit, you can be assured the more power/ higher speed bug will bite them soon enough!

 

[winkinatcha]

Hey DreddyDave

thanks for your kind words mate

Customers would probably pay a premium for a completed bike or "kit with installation" because they just don't want the hassle, or they don't want them installed on a cheap chinese import bike. Keeping spares for quick warranty replacements is probably a good idea, but keeping it as a back-to-base warranty is probably safest because you can suss out how the old part burnt out; and you don't have to worry about shipping batteries and wondering if the customer is going to wire them up incorrectly.

Yeah this is the perception I get, part of the reason I am taking so long to refine the kits, so I know em backwards and can both explain, and help with a customers build, or (for a bit extra) do the full installation myself.

Totally agree with pushing towards a "plug-and-play" experience for a customer and making sure the builds I sell are smooth,clean and neat...

Like the way yer thinking (purely 'cos it reflects how I am thinking, :lol:

Joe

 

[winkinatcha]

Just for shits and giggles, here is an updated post on my MKI build, incorporating an "out of the box" pack rack battery combo
http://frankencycle.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/update-on-the-mki/

At the bottom of the post there is a bit of a blurb about the current additional kit components I add to a standard "straight from china" conversion kit.

Joe

 

[Dreddydave]

Like the way yer thinking (purely 'cos it reflects how I am thinking,

Hahaha, touché.

 

[winkinatcha]

Win Win Win !

Legal Powered Kit accomplished!!!

In their unmodified form, the kits I currently have produce 500w

i have managed to reduce their theoretical Max Power to around 250 watts (240watts, to be exact) by making modifications to the controllers (removing one of the two shunts) and thereby THEORETICALLY reducing the current rated 20 amps of these controllers to 10.


I have tested these modifications past proof of concept and will be doing range and functional tests tomorrow.

Why is this Win? It is Win cos it means someone could buy a modified kit from me, and build a legally compliant electric pedal assist bicycle, meeting Australian adopted power and top speed limit restrictions, and employing “peddle to start”…

I haven’t installed a Pedal to start electric bike sensor, I do have them tho and I know the kit controllers have reserved inputs in them so all aspects of compliance from power to top speed and pedal assist are catered for..

Such an e-bicycle, in Australia, has the same “rights” on a road, cycle way or shared cycle way as does a purely Human-powered bicycle, and , like a bicycle does not require a licence.

A non-compliant electric bicycle (with greater power or top speed than the regulations permit) is severely restricted in terms of where it can be ridden, and can only legally be used in “off road” situations, not including cycleways or shared cycleways.
Proof of Concept and beyond

On the MkI, a kit-based electric bicycle, I have installed a controller with the power modification.

I have now wired up a separate 24volt battery system, with 24v batteries (LiPo, light, less than 5kg for 24v 15ah) So with the existing 36 volt battery (about 8kg with rear rack, LiPoFe4 Headway cell 36v 10ah ), i can now demonstrate both legal power (24v 250w), and the first easily instituted power mod, upping the voltage from 24 volts to 36 volts (360w).

Demonstrator Wins

Whilst taking the first prototype dual battery system MkI for a ride, I came across a bloke I have talked with a lot about the e-bikes i am building…

I got him to jump on the MkI and take it for a spin around the carpark, on the 250w 24v power setting. He was actually impressed even at that low power… I think it was his first experience of an electric bike.

I then disconnected the 24v battery and connected the 36 volt battery (only needed to swap one plug and change a jumper setting on the Low voltage warning) and got him to ride it again…

With the 36v battery, the bike now generated Around 370 watts, and could now push through to about 35 km/h. A significant power improvement, and after he’d taken that configuration for a spin he was even more impressed.

Nice… the MkI proved to be a worthy demonstrator.

In its current form, though, with dual battery systems, the Mk1 is heavier than it needs to be.

The next build goal is to build a purely legally compliant electric assist bicycle (24v battery only) using one of my kits and a brand new bicycle I have on hand.

Legally-compliant bicycle to electric-assist bicycle conversion

I have a brand new “Mountain-bike style” dual suspension bike, ideal for a 24v 250 watt specific e-bike conversion with one of my legally compliant kits., and once complete, it will be immediately sellable as a compliant electric assist bicycle, and I will have demonstrated installing a modified kit..

Which will then satisfy me enough to be able to finalise my business plan, sort out commercial web presence and registration, and do all those things needed to be done to actually try and make this a business rather than a hobby.

And hopefully get a couple of people off my back who are hassling me about getting that business stuff sorted.



Joe

 

[winkinatcha]

Getting paid... (ish)

My skills and confidence in the bicycle and Electric Bicycle areas are growing. No small amount due to the growing number of builds I’ve made recently and the bunch of “commercial” builds I have pulled apart.

Pretty much to the point now where I’d be willing to offer my knowledge and expertise to repair and refurbish e-bikes that have been bought from other vendors…

Anyways… On Sunday (two days ago) I decided to check out a bunch of second-hand shops which are in a shopping strip about 5km from my workshop, looking for cheap but quality second-hand bikes, after a friend tipped me off that she had seen a few bikes there for sale.

So, I rocked up, found this one shop (just as it was closing) run by a Polish gentleman I’d say around mid 50′s by the name of Harry… he and a mate were hanging outside when I tootled up on my latest cheapo dual suspension legal unit… We three got to talking and of course any talking with me involves electric bikes… Spraff Spraff Spraff goes Joe (me) and I end up convincing Harry to have a ride of the new build, which he does, and he is extremely positive… Good Power, Light, etcetera…He is a bit concerned about the price ($1200) but can see the validity…

Anyways, turns out he has an electric bicycle which is currently not working, “I can fix it” says I, and he says come around Monday…I am closing the shop now… so off I go.. Passing by another second hand shop, I find an early model trail-a-bike, one of those bike trailer style thingies that you can put a kid on to, to do the pedalling for you (I think they are actually designed more for parents that want to take their kid along on bike rides while they are still small and the peddling is optional) it’s in OK nick, and only 40 dollars and I’ve actually been looking for one of these things for a while cos I see them as potentially modifiable by adding an electric wheel, rather than a child, and using it as a pusher trailer…

W00t! So, as the linkage has not come with the trail-a-bike, I use a couple of bungee cords to tie the end to my rack and tow it home… not the best linkage, but it worked….. All well and good.. I have a 20inch motorised front wheel on my currently not working trike, and have designs to swap this into the trail-a-bike once I sort the linkage out.. unless I can find a cheap kid that can put out about 250w.

Monday comes around, and I have a buncha stuff to do in the morning and end up getting round to Harry’s second-hand shop early afternoon.. That man has something like 50 second hand bikes in various forms… But he is a canny man, and tho in the scheme of things the quality bikes he has are gonna be a shizzle load cheaper than what I could get them new, they are not in the $70 -100 price range i was hoping for, more round the $150 to 200… damn.

But.. Harry gives me a bit of a look see at the electric bike which is not going… well not so much the bike, but the battery pack, which he has partly pulled apart.. Inside this battery pack are three uber heavy 12v 15ah SLA batteries (Sealed Lead Acid…each weighing about 5kgs) looking well past their due by date… As luck would have it, I have accumulated a few SLAs, having found a few for sale via online auction. (SLAs are often used in UPS (uninterupte Power Supplies) and knowing my batteries, I managed to pick up four a few months ago for around $20 each, brand new replacement batteries.. these things retail for around $40 so purchasing ‘em seemed like a good idea at the time.

So.. I says to Harry, I can rebuild his battery box, and throw in an SLA charger (another stroke of luck in that when I first went public on a major e-bike forum about starting an e-bike business, one of the first blokes who bought a kit off me also sent me 6 36v SLA chargers for e-bikes.. for Nix.. ) Woo! a few things coming together here

I quote $120, and we decide that the easiest and best thing would be for me to rock up the next morning and fix the battery box in his shop.

Next morning comes around (this morning) and as I am about to go I pick up Pat the Workshop Cat for a bit of a “how are ya, goodbye” smooch, and pop my back out… not too bad. but bad enough to make me wince and quickly go to the super market and buy some ibuprofen and chug down a coupla tabs.. and walk very upright… Also cos I now know my back is fragile as all get out, I decide to take the train the one whole stop to harry’s shop, carrying tools, and three replacement batteries.



Easy Peasy lemon Squeezy, turn up at Harry’s while he is still moving all his furniture around, just on opening, lay my tools out on a bench, and get to work, first unsoldering the existing batteries, wiring in the new ones, and so on and so forth and two hrs later, the box is back to together, better than it was before, we dump it in the lectric bike, and.. the bike is intermittent and pretty crap… I pull the wiring covers off and take a squizz.. Harry has bypassed the keyswitch on the bike cos it has no keys, and in doing so he has used something like 8 foot of 14 gauge wire to bypass the switch, long story short this wire is Totally indequate for carrying the current the motor needs, so I bypass the switch properly with a straight through connector,.. try again.. works like a bloody charm and I am $120 richer …

BUT I NEED another bike so I can build a 35km/h, 60 km range commuter to push onto the tester from a whiles back after finding the pocket rocket was not quite adequate.. The bike I want from Harry’s collection I can get for $150… so for about 15 mins I had the $120 from Harry, then I went to the bank, got another $30, and gave it back

The bike I got is pretty effing awesome… Sooooo light…Full aluminium frame, front shocks in fair condition, paint on Frame almost perfect, Just needs a quick kit install, anew Ping 36v battery and all will be well…

Got on like a house on fire with Harry… and as I was about to leave he told me to make up a sign advertising what I do and he would put it in his window for free…

Gotta love that

AND my first “legitimate” repair job was a success.. and a factor which I had not considered as part of my original business plan… IE I was looking at being a kit supplier and bike builder, but e-bike repairer added to the mix MAY just be a positive as well

Joe

 

[schmidty_81]

I think you've got a decent shot at building a profitable business here. You're probably a bit vague at the moment about how exactly you're going to make your revenue, but realistically you probably need to be, keep the net wide and see what people are in need of, then specialise based on what people want and what you can make a buck out of.

One thing that occurs to me is in your area there's a big University and lots of University accommodation, Australian Uni's being Australian Uni's there's loads of international students, a lot of them these days are from China and they're used to getting around on electric bikes, from the ones I've spoken to they're (e-bikes) more common than cars over there.

I haven't exactly done a lot of market research on the matter but I have spoken to a few of these Chinese students, they're usually either unable or just don't want to get a license and a car and everything, but getting around Melbourne without one can be a real pain in the backside. They're really interested in getting an electric bike but they're expensive over here (comparative to what they're used to). They're also usually from cities in China and really aren't mechanically minded, they want to know if it breaks or if they break it then they can get it fixed somewhere.

You might also find there's a market for rentals?

You could also offer to buy the bike back from them once they graduate and move on or go home... That way all you need to do is make a couple of hundred bucks on the sale of the bike initially, a couple of hundred when you buy it back and on sell it, and a couple of hundred along the way in servicing and bobs your uncle.