BIG PROBLEM: Poor wire size and China products

[Doctorbass]

I wanted to talk about that from many month and now I believe it's time:

And.. Yes... Doc have been "blowing a fuse" every time it realized it happened!
I. E. Blowing a fuse mean.. I still can't understand why they still do that!

It's a fact: chineese ebike products use TOO SMALL WIRE for the rated current!!

Am I the only one who agree and perceive that? :| Yes.... No??

Some greats exemple :

-A 40A rated Ping batterie use 14 gauge wires output :?
(that work.. but at 40A the wires become hot...= lost power)

-The 30A Crystalyte DC 409 Sparrow hub motor use 18 gauge wire on the motor.
( with continuous 30A this motor wires can melt the palstic envelop tube and not the teflon isulatio on them... )

-Crystalyte 48A rated controller use 12 gauge wires
( Why using wires that will make you lost like 2 volt at 48A.... )

-The 30A rated Crystalyte lithium battery with Box no 3 model DONT HAVE ANY FUSE and have 18 gauge wire inside the battery and 10A rated switch
The wires inside become so hot then plastic melted inside the battery case!!.. FIRE CAN OCCUR)

-The AC plug of the Ping battery charger of 5A 300W output have the wire that become hot when charging.. THE AC CABLE !!.. that charger draw 6A at 120V to output 300W... and at 6A the 18gauge rated IEC powercord IS HOT !! == DANGER FOR YOUR HOUSE ( I replaced every of them..)

And... finally.. every pouch style LiFepo4 battery sold from china use too small wire at output compared to the max rated continuous output current


My Question is.. WHY ???

The wire cost compared to the rest is NOTHING... I mean.. sepending few more penny for the fabrication woud make these product more attractive and more performant... and...
MORE SAFE !!!


Just for fun... tonight.. just look at your ebike chineese product and examin the stock wire size they used... and compare the rated current their product have and the UL recommanded wire gauge it supposed to be used... you will see... GENERALLY THEY ARE TOO SMALL

And.. guess what... just rassemble every worst conditions together:

-poor wire size on your ebike parts
-Sunny day and hot weather temperature
-Hard ebike ride
-Fully charged battery
-100% throttle for long period during the ride

All great condition to create wire to melt and catch fire...

But... they still use these poor wire size

According to the standard American wire gauge regulations and the : NFPA 70 National Electrical Code 2008 Edition :

Allowable ampacities of insulated conductors rated 0 throrugh 2000 volts, 60°C through 90°C, not more than three current-carrying conductors in raceway, cable, or earth (directly buried) based on ambient temperature of 30°C

12 gauge can support up to 20A MAX
14 gauge can support up to 15A MAX
16 gauge can support up to 10A MAX
18 gauge can support up to 7a MAX

Ok ok...... I know .... some have teflon insulation that nornmally can support up to 260 celsius before melting

but..
To me that just mean YOUR WIRE CAN BECOME VERY HOT AND WILL DISSIPATE POWER AND MAKE YOU LOOSE PRECIOUS WATTS AND VOLT IN HEAT ..... WITH LESS DANGER... lol



Doc

 

[icecube57]

Under very short runs small gauge wire can hold some serious current on but longer spans you have increased heat and resistance. Lower strand count wires heat up more than higher ones under high amps i noticed. You are very right. some of the wire choices are very poor. My phase wires are 14 gauge and get vary warm when dumpin 3000+w on them but to make matters worse..you can scrape the insulation off with your fingernail.

Keywin just started using 10gauge on his new 116 controllers. My Volgood ductape pack used 10Gauge on the output on a 45A battery bms.

Do you have to remember that sometimes the kits were matched to specific batteries and motors and they were very barely adequate for the job. But we on the forum like to go over and beyond. A simple controller swap could put us double the maximum rating for the components. Like me. My stock setup was 48v and 1000w peaking at 16-1800w... A controller swap and new batts and Im peaking well in to the 3000w mark.

One thing that has me worried now is my phase wires. Everything runs pretty ok and cool now but long periods of WOT.. my stock harness get very warm. They are already a tight fit in the axes especially with my temp probe wire in the axel.

Computers are another example. Most run cool at the stock regulated voltages and loads. Once you start overclocking and doing more than what it was designed to do then you have thermal meltdowns and the letting the magic smoke out.

Sadly there are stock applications like in your case where they dont perform well stock and shady craftsman shop thats when you need to contact the company and start demanding refunds.

 

[icecube57]

12 gauge can support up to 20A MAX
14 gauge can support up to 15A MAX
16 gauge can support up to 10A MAX
18 gauge can support up to 7a MAX

Ok ok...... I know .... some have teflon insulation that nornmally can support up to 260 celsius before melting

but..
To me that just mean YOUR WIRE CAN BECOME VERY HOT AND WILL DISSIPATE POWER AND MAKE YOU LOOSE PRECIOUS WATTS AND VOLT IN HEAT ..... WITH LESS DANGER... lol

Doc

I pushed 130A through 12gauge wire back when i had a watts up meter. So that was over 6 feet of wire. Going back and forth between the front and rear of the bike... Like you said.It can handle high loads with but you loose watts and volts and make heat with less danger. The wires were almost tacky too lol.

My GM battery harness had 16 gauge wires with a 12v 30A glass fuse holder. Everything but the fuse melted.. I had to cut the fuze holder off and twist the wires together and put some tape on it to make it home one day. Went to the auto parts store and bought a blade fuze holder with 10Gauge wire... thats what it should have been made out of from the start.

 

[Anonymous]

.

 

[mwkeefer]

Doc,

I have to agree with you there... even @ 20amps ... with the average off the shelf eBikeKit using 12AWG (and nothing fancy if you ever measure the impedance of 3' of it) with a fully charged 36v LiFePo4 you are seeing 43v hot. What's that 860 watts? Over 12 Guage... if the run were 2-4" maybe, but over more than 10"?

I learned long ago durring the car audio phase of life, 8-10G for between 100-130A sustained... handles transients but... KEEP those leads short as possible, go minimum 4G to the trunk or better distribute another battery back there.

I have to assume the same applies....

My tiny phase wires also heat up under 2200-3000w of use, badly (they are inside a handlebar bag to be moisture proof but ... the temp climbs to > 100 ambient in there (they are the only heat generator in the bag now).

Although this might seem silly to most:

1.) I always route my controller as close to the batteries as possible and when the install goes final, upgrade my controllers with 10AWG 220 C, Oil and Silicone Resistant Stranded from HomeDepot... it's cheap but it's resistance is non-existant and works well enough for 40-60A (imho). The distance is usually between 8" and 14" at most and terminated at both ends (Batteries and Controller) using 4mm gold connectors with slip over rubber weather protectant.

2.) When I've placed everything for a final install.... I rerun the 3 Phase Wires into the Motor using the same 10AWG wire mentioned above.... nope not as flexible but man does it work!

3.) I replace all the molex connections with either solder or 2-4mm gold plug pairs depending upon the installation.

4.) If you prefer to maintain with the Molex for the Phase connectors atleast give it a good fill with silicone (both controller and plug side) or hot glue to prevent moisture.... a Piece of 78" shrink tape slipped over before the connection then warmed with a bic lighter will go along way too.

-Mike

 

[Doctorbass]

It is good to see everyone perceived same thing as me here the same ?&/*$*/%( problem!

I was also a car audio anthousiast few years ago and I always oversized the wires i needed.. and that's why I had many 1st position on car audio competition with only two 10" woooferthat beated many 4x 15" woofer kit.. by scoring up to 157.2dB with 6500W amp and 000 gauge wires for 500A and 4 gauge wire for the woofer

Oh I forgot to mention the POOR electrical contact of the trailers plug of the crystalyte controller.. lol.. the 18 fets 48A come with these plug for the battery input!!!

Watta poor electrical contact!!!

 

[mwkeefer]

NO Doc,

Don't lie...

We all know it was the LOW ESR Caps + 11-18db Gain Bandpassbox with Midbasses to fill the range for flat on RTA = )

- Sorry had to = )

DO you remember Blade Series Amplifiers, I think they were the first with a 95% efficient Class D amp for subs only but still...

-Mike

 

[icecube57]

Car audio... with retarded wire runs... NO CHASSIS GROUND!... No less than two 0 gauge wires for positive and negative. Some times 4.. talk about expensive....

But anyways how about the cheap wire that you get that claims to be 10 gauge but really its 12 gauge with extra thick stiff insulation... that pisses me off.

 

[icecube57]

It is good to see everyone perceived same thing as me here the same ?&/*$*/%( problem!

Oh I forgot to mention the POOR electrical contact of the trailers plug of the crystalyte controller.. lol.. the 18 fets 48A come with these plug for the battery input!!!

Watta poor electrical contact!!!

I melted the hell out of those when I had a freakin brushed 409 at 30A.

One connector that takes a lickin and keeps on tickin is spade connectors. I know yall hat em but Ive never had one fail due to heat or melting issues. Only the occasional bad crimp where the wire slips out unexpectedly but every other connector including andersons have bit the dusts with me.

 

[Russell]

My Chinese 48V/10Ah battery came with 14AWG output wires, that is the conductors measure 1.63mm in diameter.

See table http://www.batteryspace.com/wirescables.aspx

The thing is the 14AWG zip cord I bought measures about 1.94mm across. It's hard to get an accurate rading on calipers with flexible wire so I checked the two wire samples on the wire strippers. The Chinese 14AWG wire slipped through the 14AWG hole with no resistance, even a little side to side play, but the conductor from the 14AWG zip cord had significant resistance to being pulled out of the hole.

To add to the confusion 14G spokes are supposed to be 2.0mm in diameter and if you measure them with a calipers that's what you get. However when I measured spokes off my Chinese built 9C wheel and original Bafang wheel that were supposed to be 12G I got 2.24mm or slightly less than 13G (2.34mm).

Anyway as I said the wiring on my Chinese battery IS 14AWG, it's just smaller in diameter than the "14AWG" wire I use for the rest of my wiring which is more like 12.5AWG wire if you go by the table above

-R

 

[mwkeefer]

As I posted earlier (I think it was here)...

To heck with the Flexible, expensive stuff.... I go to HomeDepot and get 220 celcius, oil and gasoline resistant 10AWG and it's really 10AWG (it's too large to fit in many connectors for 10AWG no matter how tight I twist it with pliers even! ... so it's definate the stuff. I forget the cost but it's reasonable and best they have it in about 6 colors by the spool / foot. They also have 8 if I recall but the weight tradeoff isnt' worth it unless yoru going over 40a on a normal use basis.

I find the semi rigid (the wire not insulation) helps to mold the wires right where I want them to run on the bike.

-Mike

 

[vanilla ice]

Chinese factory managers need vacations too!

 

[HighTekBikes]

Doc, you are absolutely correct. The reason is yes, the Chinese builders want to save pennies, literally. A smaller guage wire is cheaper. When you build thousands of pieces, it adds up. But this is the insane and frustrating practice that the Chinese don't understand. Penny wise and dollar foolish. They can take an otherwise great product and lesson its usefulness by doing something stupid like using a too narrow wire... to save 2 cents !!! Who's to blame? We are for demanding cheap products, and also cut throat competition. You ever wonder how much Ping is making on a battery pack? Probably $25.

 

[dogman dan]

Heh Heh, NOBODY supplies the wire size you need doc. :lol: :lol:

But yeah, for the NA market, everything for the main power should be 12 guage, or 10 for a battery that puts out 5c. But most of us lame ebikers use about 20 amps max, and the stock wiring only gets mildlly warm.

 

[Doctorbass]

NO Doc,

Don't lie...

We all know it was the LOW ESR Caps + 11-18db Gain Bandpassbox with Midbasses to fill the range for flat on RTA = )

- Sorry had to = )

DO you remember Blade Series Amplifiers, I think they were the first with a 95% efficient Class D amp for subs only but still...

-Mike

Mike.. Bandpass box are too complicated to match the perfect cabin resonant peak combined with acoustic impedense of it...

Old good ported box with aeroport vent style.. I built alot of them for people... especialy the 6 and 8 " flared tube... just like these famous CRX BOX.. I really did 157.2dB ( but on my calibrated AC3055 RTA)

Doc

 

[Mike1]

I stripped all the useless Chinese wire off my bike. I now run 5 awg battery cables almost all the way to the controller. My understanding is that the thicker the battery cables are the cooler the capacitors run in the controller. Is this the case?

 

[rhitee05]

My understanding is that the thicker the battery cables are the cooler the capacitors run in the controller. Is this the case?

That should be true, for the most part. Thicker and/or shorter wires -> lower inductance. If the inductance to the battery is lower, more of the transient current spikes can come from the battery and the capacitor doesn't have to source/absorb as much current. A bigger and/or lower ESR capacitor would also reduce the strain.

Even though my runs will be short and current moderate (~30A continuous), I'll be using 10ga for my wiring. The stock wires for the Cyclone motor and controller are labeled 12ga, which should also be adequate for short runs.

 

[vanilla ice]

I protect my Chinese wiring by using lamp cord to wire my bikes. Lamp cord heats up, Chinese wiring stays cool, problem solved.

 

[justadad1957]

i sure wish i had taken a speed reading course earilier in my life there is so much info on this forum its hard to keep up with

thanks to es i might learn something

 

[auraslip]

But this is the insane and frustrating practice that the Chinese don't understand.

I think the real issue is that they don't care. There are no "brands" in China for people to develop loyalties to, so there is no economic reason for Chinese factories to produce a quality product.

This is the big problem with importing from China. The "company" your dealing with might not even make the product they are selling. What you bought from them last time might not even come from the same factory as their new stock.

I know the older ebike kits had a problem with cheap connectors and wires, but now seem to come with "real" andersons. Ebike.ca sources their own mosfets for the chinese factories to install in their controllers.

It is really the Western resellers responsibility to make sure kits are fool proof. The Chinese have no reason to do it themselves.

That being said......the 10 gauge wire from home depot is a frocking pain in the ass to work with. But the only reasonably priced brick and motar option I could find.

 

[DervAtl]

This thread makes me wonder what a dd hub motor would cost if produced with quality spec'ed parts and built in the US. Would they be so far out of the ballgame that no one would buy them? I'm guessing the parts cost would be an additional 15% and the labor cost ---- probably 100%. You should, however, get some offset from reduced shipping.

 

[amberwolf]

Note that all numbers are guesses, as I don't want to look them up for a quick thought-experiment. Anyone that has real numbers to put in here, please do so!

What does labor for this sort of thing cost in China? I suspect it's probably often less than a few dollars a *day*, for what is probably 12-16 hour days, 6 days a week. Let's be generous and call it $10/day, for $60/wk.

Even if you paid only minimum wage here in the USA, then with all the bureaucratic overhead required you'd still be shelling out at least $10-$20/hr, for at most 8 hour days 5 days a week for each worker (to avoid overtime costs). Let's go with the $10/hr to keep numbers easy to multiply (even though I doubt it's anywhere near that cheap), and you get $400/wk.

So labor is perhaps at best 6.7 times the cost here that it is there.

If we assume materials cost on a motor there is fairly minimal given the style of construction that is typical, then very likely more than 50% of the unit cost is labor. Probably closer to 75-90%, but we'll go with the easy-to-use 50%. That means that a given motor will cost at least nearly 4 times as much here as it does there, for exactly the same quality motor. If it was a $100 cost-to-build motor, $50 labor and $50 parts, then that $50 labor becomes $335, for a total now of $385 cost to build that motor.

Now, you won't want to use the same construction or materials, because the point is to improve them significantly. At a guess, it would at minimum double the cost of parts, making it now $435 to build the motor.

It definitely at this point (given the numbers I use, which may be unrealistic in either direction) costs much much more to make here than it did to make it there and ship it here.

We haven't gotten into the costs of the building, utilities, equipment, insurance, etc. I have no idea what those are, but I'm sure they'd add a significant amount to the product cost. If it is a small-volume company, only a few thousand or tens of thousand motors a year, those costs will be very significant because they don't amortize over as many units.

Assuming they do no marketing or advertising, and only sell to OEMs or kit makers that already know about them, then you don't have to worry about marketing costs. But probably they'd need to market more directly, and there you have a huge expense that does not add anything to the final product but has to be included in it's cost. In some cases, marketing will actually *detract* from a product's final value, or even usefulness, because it will require "flashiness" be added to the product that only adds marketing value, rather than intrinsic value.

(I'm sure you've all owned products that some of this flashiness has actually detracted from it's usability for you. I certainly have, though most of it has been in software rather than hardware.)

Ready to get the shovel out and start groundbreaking for the new USA factory yet? :lol:

 

[rkosiorek]

This thread makes me wonder what a dd hub motor would cost if produced with quality spec'ed parts and built in the US. Would they be so far out of the ballgame that no one would buy them? I'm guessing the parts cost would be an additional 15% and the labor cost ---- probably 100%. You should, however, get some offset from reduced shipping.

look at the price of the now defunct Tidal Force bike, or the original EV Warrior. both were made in the USA and both carried hefty price tags. though both were much more reasonable than the Opti-Bike. at least with either of these bikes i would not have the slightest concern of riding in the rain or hosing one off with a pressure washer to get the mud off. would you do that with your kit bike?

Or look at the price of the BionX kits. price wise it is also well above that of the Chinese imports. it is also miles above the quality of the vast majority of the kits. just think it has wiring that is of adequate size for the application and weatherproof connectors.

now don't get me wrong. the Tidal Force, Warrior and BionX are far from perfect. but as far a quality goes they are better than most. the price though is more then several hundred percent higher than the Chinese competition.

rick

 

[Dave Sloan]

First I would like to say that there is good quality and bad quality coming out of all countries including the good old U.S.A. - depends on how much time you spend researching and want to pay - just do not complain if you want to be a cheap-skate. Also I would like to add that there are a lot of companies that are looking for short term and long term business = give them your feedback. Getting back to the topic: Get the controller as close to the hub as possible - below the handlebars where there is no flexing of the phase wires. If you need waterproof connectors near the hub - use MC4 - If you need a battery disconnect - put it behind the seat and use andersons. Run 6-8 gauge from the battery to the controller - and change the battery leads to 8 gauge if you run 40-50 amps. Phase wires are not DC wires so they use a different calculation. If the wires get hotter then the hub then you have problems! I have always used an infrared unit to ensure that the wires do not exceed 90c. For recommendations on flexible high heat wires - checkout NEC specs for tracking solar panels. All wires have specific markings - guage is just one of them.

 

[The Mighty Volt]

This thread makes me wonder what a dd hub motor would cost if produced with quality spec'ed parts and built in the US. Would they be so far out of the ballgame that no one would buy them? I'm guessing the parts cost would be an additional 15% and the labor cost ---- probably 100%. You should, however, get some offset from reduced shipping.

look at the price of the now defunct Tidal Force bike, or the original EV Warrior. both were made in the USA and both carried hefty price tags. though both were much more reasonable than the Opti-Bike. at least with either of these bikes i would not have the slightest concern of riding in the rain or hosing one off with a pressure washer to get the mud off. would you do that with your kit bike?

Or look at the price of the BionX kits. price wise it is also well above that of the Chinese imports. it is also miles above the quality of the vast majority of the kits. just think it has wiring that is of adequate size for the application and weatherproof connectors.

now don't get me wrong. the Tidal Force, Warrior and BionX are far from perfect. but as far a quality goes they are better than most. the price though is more then several hundred percent higher than the Chinese competition.

rick

AGreed 100%.

However, please also consider this statement made by the IEBA in Ireland....

"The Irish Electric Bicycle Association has been formed by Ireland's only electric bike specialist & BEBA. Having achieved a level of consistency in Ireland for service and quality of electric bikes provided to consumers and dealers IEBA has been established to advice on quality.

We all know cheap electric bikes are creeping into Ireland, we fully expected it to happen, it did in every other Country & we can hopefully help potential electric bike owners avoid the pit falls of sub standard & in most cases illegal rubbish which is bad news for the customer & the industry.

The association is a PR house to promote the use of electric cycles. Our efforts will be focussed on educating consumers about the benefits of electric cycles, giving them an 'industry stamp' of recognition for meeting certain service commitments."

Translation: "We want to corner the market in Ireland. The stuff you buy off Ebay is utter rubbish. Instead, you should be happy with really really reliable 250w kits which we will sell to you for 5 times the price of the more powerful but slightly more confusing "illegal rubbish".

I emailed them to ask them what made them a "Ireland Only Electric-Bike Specialist".... NO REPLY. Ebay, Endless-Sphere, etc, are KILLING these rip-off merchants, and rightly so. For too long the Chinese stuff has been passed off as gruesome rubbish that will break at a moments notice. That mentality belongs in the 80's. Sure, they have crappy wiring. I agree. So what. Change it.

TidalForce and Bionx are suffering/defunct because they have not realized reality yet. Consider the American car market. Cheap and cheerful rubbish {by European standards} which is good for around 3 years. But it has a lot of power. And it can be fixed/modded. Consider the new Mustang {from 2005 on}. Rubbish in terms of interior, seal quality, handling.... but cheap and powerful. And worth almost nothing after 3 years. Which is when it is time to go out and buy the new one.

I said in another thread that shorter, fatter wires were the way to go. I agree with Doc: the wires in the Chinese imports are RUBBISH. The first thing I will do when I get my order of Cute Hubs is rip them open and attempt to replace the wiring. I will fail on the first few but will eventually get it.

It is like a pair of Nikes that cost $20 but have dirty laces. Just go and get some better, newer laces.

Rant over.