Bike II

Mathurin

100 kW
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
1,166
Location
Quebec
So I've pretty much worked out what I'd like for next winter:


Bike weight preferably less then ~30kgs,
Road legal (brake cutoff switches, etc)
Range >50kms with no human input, long-range pack?
Climb ~15%-ish grade at speed limit with no human input,
Has to be workable year round regardless of weather,
Low maintenance, low thief desirability.


So here's what I'm thinking:

Rigid alu mtb or touring bike, fat tires on wide rims. Clyte 409 run at 72v 60A, two EVtech 36v15ah packs.


Weight breaks down kinda like this:

6.25Kg for for the 409
1.25Kg for the 35A controller
9Kg battery packs
13.5Kg for the bike w/full fenders, racks, lights, etc. (yeah right!)

Just under 70kgs & 1m80 for the rider


At around 3.6kgs the BMC sounds good I guess, but I dunno.


I figure it should climb 15% at 32km/h sucking somewhere between 35-40A, and with 60A on tap it should be able to power through just about any snowbank. Local hills are steep but short, so I don't except to have heat issues. If it gets too steep I'll just get off and let it drag me up the hill, anyways.


I would have liked a front motor to benefit from the major plus in the slop, but I figure I can squeeze more weight two ways with a rear motor: I'll avoid having to add weight with a steel front fork, and it'll shave a good bit of weight off the drive train, as I'll have to run a single speed rather then hub gear with cable and such. I'm thinking about gearing it either 48/16 or 52/17, at 30/40 km/h that would yield 80/106 & 78/98 RPM's at the crank.


The one major hic about this project is that I can't/don't want to buy two of these EVtech packs, as they're pretty dear. Hopefully by winter I'll have found a solution for this, until then I'm thinking about lead & taking it easy.


I'd like to be able to strap on a longer range 72v pack made of 18Ah lead slabs or such, three on the rear and three in front would make for reasonably long range occasional use pack. Along with the Evtech packs, this would yield ~2Kw/h. Ample for commuting 150kms.


So that's my half-baked idea of what BikeII should be, as it stands.
Who says better?
 
Just thinkin out loud...

How bout just one lipo pack, pedal 25%, and make a fairing.

Higher top speed, similar range, less weight, less $$. Warmer too.

:?:
 
Something that drops below 32km/h on 3-4% grades is not an option. Speaking from experience, a bike that I have to hump up hill is going to be slower on the flats then a bike that picks it's self up... Same thing in traffic.

How do you figure the bike with twice the ah will have comparable range?

Btw, think more like >12% before the 409 would slow from 32.
 
I was sorta thinkin you'd pick up about 24% eff with the fairing and reduced weight... pick up another 25% with pedalling.

Top speed might suffer at 50% voltage, but with pedalling maybe not so bad?

Anyhoo, I figure bringing the cost down and getting into lipo, even 50% of your goal; beats lead any day. When funding permits, add more lipo.
:?
 
What kind of total distance between charges do you need to cover ?

Edit " " Range >50kms with no human input, long-range pack? " .. oops.

50 km is going to require 800 wh or so..

V x Ah = Wh..

so.. 800 / 72v = 11 ah or so... at 72v. ( + or - depending on many factors ... but rough ballpark )

From reading this forum... i beleive Deecanio's lipo's cut out at 10 to 12 ah of use on a 15ah pack....

The Puma with gears might be a problem in cold Quebec winters.. in ice and - 20 celcius temps.. brushless gearless would probably be best in this situation. I could be wrong..

Get a good bike, remove all stickers.. paint the whole thing black or just scrape it up some maybe..
 
800 Wh is 9-- call it 10 milwaukee packs. That's 25 lbs (and $1000) right there. A puma is 8 lbs and a standard bike is around 33 lbs. Hey, look at that! Exactly 30 kg.

I'm thinking about a puma with a gohub (crystalyte 20a 36v) controller. This would replace the gohub 408 on my Gruv-E. I could probably get that project going in about 2 months.
 
jondoh said:
I'm thinking about a puma with a gohub (crystalyte 20a 36v) controller. This would replace the gohub 408 on my Gruv-E. I could probably get that project going in about 2 months.

John, you know the Puma doesnt really wake up until you feed it 48v. Will the 36v gohub controller handle the 54v from your 2s3p Milwaukee V28s?
 
John, you know the Puma doesnt really wake up until you feed it 48v. Will the 36v gohub controller handle the 54v from your 2s3p Milwaukee V28s?

Dude! That was the setup on the range test (54v 9ah). I thought you knew that. We just took the pack and dropped it on Ric's bike. I didn't have to change anything. You want to try this controller while waiting for your FETs? I'd like to know it will do 30 before commiting $500 for the motor.
 
jondoh said:
Dude! That was the setup on the range test (54v 9ah). I thought you knew that. We just took the pack and dropped it on Ric's bike. I didn't have to change anything. You want to try this controller while waiting for your FETs? I'd like to know it will do 30 before commiting $500 for the motor.

Ooops, major brain fart! I even posted that you were running the same Milwaukee setup as I was for the range test video, something didnt register when I saw you post wanting to run a Puma with a "36v controller". If you want me to hook the GT up with your controller for your test purposes I'd be glad to help out but only if you do the test riding so if something smokes I wont feel so bad. :wink:

BTW, my FETs came in the mail today so it wont be long before I'm out thrashing again. hahaha
 
As for the BMC, plastic parts + freezing temps is my greatest fear. I'm not willing to test this at my own expense.

The winding part of it looks rather small compared to other motors, I don't know but I get the impression the BMC would overheat faster then the 4X?

I like the weight of the BMC though, ~2.75Kg difference is a lot.



I'd rather make my own packs to fit as I intend, so far the Milwaukee packs seem the most appealing. I plugged in the EVtech packs because they exist, are of a known weight and and current delivery, etc... But by the time I get both the cash and will to dispose of it, I'd expect the battery prices will have changed some... Again this is gonna be a lead sled for a while.


I'm planning on wide rims for winter usage, and good studded tires exist almost only in 26" and 700 so that pretty much settles size. Best I've found so far is Alex DX32 rims for this, robust, wide, fairly light and cheap. Not a done deal yet, but so far they seem to be the best.
 
About the nylon gears, from what I know about nylon, it's pretty resilient. At my work, we have nylon parts that we rate to -25 deg C. I don't predict problems but then again i don't know how cold it is by you and I live in california.

With low temps, the thing that will suffer is the performance of SLA if they get cold (which might happen on a long trip).
 
I've pretty much decided on the BMC/Puma for a FWD winter bike because of its low weight, after having slid sideways twice within one week this winter & bending a crank. With RWD the nose constantly deflects whenever it hits a patch of the fluffy stuff. I hadn't considered the gearing might be a problem in the cold as it was minus 30C at the time I took the spills so I hope it will hold up.

I don't know how Lipo responds in the cold, I've read here that they actually run better hot? My nimhs at that temp gave me about half the range & 5mph off the top speed, so remember to take that into account. You'll defiantly get less amp hours no matter what the chemistry I think. I haven't decided on the type of battery yet, but probably stick with nimh. I don't need a lot of range & 15mph on pack ice is enuf of a white knuckle ride for me.

Just want to ask a couple of things.
Who are you buying the BMC from? Is there a dealer in Canada?
What was/is Bike I?
 
Well, plastic things break when it gets cold. For example a blinkie light is too much for a plastic holder. Metals stay allright, except cheap chineese aluminium that becomes plastic. I've broken off two such kickstands in winter usage. Somehow when I think of the BMC + winter, I have the mental image of a cracked gear as in the heinzman hubs when people put too much juice through them. I'd love to beta-test that, but certainly not out of my own pocket...


Clyte hubmotors have the overwhelming advantage of having no plastic, being available from a crapload of sources, being a lot cheaper and having a well known performance, they will work out fine in winter, complete with a simulator at ebikes.ca. No 409 on it, though.


Bike v.1 was Bike de merde, translates into "POS bike"

Pics:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=235&start=30

Thread about it:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=81



Good point about the AWD bike, handles great in the slop.
Gotta reconsider the front mounting...

Again, none of this is done, yet.
 
Mathurin said:
Climb ~15%-ish grade at speed limit with no human input, Has to be workable year round regardless of weather,
Low maintenance, low thief desirability.
15% grade??? :shock: I've read that a 10% grade is unpeddleable using just human strength. I'm just looking into calculating grades of the streets in my neighborhood and for one particular street its about a half mile stretch with a consistent climb. I thought this street had a decent grade but it only calculated to a 4.22% grade. Can someone look over my calculations to see if I got it correct.

Start: Elevation = 107ft
End: Elevation = 214ft
Distance traveled = 0.48mi
Grade= 4.22%
 
Well I've ridden up Gilmore hill on my own power often enough, apparently the hill part is 14% for 350m, followed by 500m of 6% pitches before it gets flat-ish. I figure 32km/h up ~15% is doable with the slightly higher voltage of Li batteries (I'd figured for 72v), and that should cover just about every local hill. Even if the bike ends up only matching the conservative 12% estimate, I should be able to go up 15% at 32km/h by giving a solid 300w for however long it takes.

Riding up hills that are named tends to not be very pleasant, and there's no avoiding them if you live here. Gilmore is a more extreme example, they close it for winter. Mostly stay between 6-8% with some of the ancient roads that have more then >10% grade or so (Québec city is nearly 400 years old)


BTW Kreuzotter gives me a four on four now? Oh noes!
 
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
Is 10% really unpedable, where is that from? I don't know one way or the other but 10 degrees is 18% & I think that I could do that much.

I just read it on this site.

http://www.roberts-1.com/bikehudson/r/m/hilliness/
 
can someone point me to a BMC picture? are these the currie-esque BLDC I remember?

Mathurin - I'm a big fan of the steel frame. particularly if your going to mod it out, it makes for much easier welding. your weight savings for ALum are arguably insignificant, where motor/battery weight differences are not.

the small chain pulling motors will coast a hair better (if they have a freewheel *do they still do that on the motor sprocket?*)

frankly, knoxie's tadpole looks like the way to go in these conditions. Considering recubent trike at all?
 
I think they mean this BMC:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=541

I'm running the one you're thinking of. Used to be a 600w 24v motor.
I'm running it at 60v, 90A max now. It does pretty well up to 2.5kW.

I'd like to try one of my controllers with that hub motor.
 
I don't intend to chop the frame, and sure hope I won't have to.

Recumbent trike for winter? nope! Dunno man, if I ever get a trike I'll shurely try it in winter at some point, but I want something I know will be workable.

Some neighbours threw out a key component for what I kinda half-dreamed about in a recumbent trike, yesterday. I noticed it going to work. When I came back it was still there so when I got home I whipped out my bike, hooked up the ninja trailer and went back to fetch it. Score!:

IMG_5616.jpg



You can also make it a pedal-forward thing:

IMG_5615.jpg




Freewheel may be nice, but I'd rather have a regen brake type thing (flip a switch from 72-36v & gun it while going down hill), but a chain pulling motor means an exposed mechanism, that seems a less then optimal plan.
 
For brakes, my original idea was something like The Tektro MT 4.0 with Shimano XT BR-M760 V-Brakes. & Kool-Stop salmon refills in 'em. That would work nicely.

But Id' rather have something fully sealed, and as low maintenance as possible. A Sturmey Archer S30 3SP Hub on the back would give me 3 speeds and a coaster brake. I think it could be complemented by a rollerbrake on the Clyte hub, right? I dunno if that's doable.



Looks like 409 has 0.7ohms & NdFeB magnets
 
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