Black Trail Bt-01 Anybody have any dope yet
- Thread starter Green Machine
- Start date
Green Machine
100 kW
So more good information from this link: http://www.jameslist.com/advert/213305/for-sale-pg-bikes-blacktrail
Supposedly it is just 48volt system, 17 ah battery..that would mean it has to be lifepo4 to weigh 20lbs.Ilia got lifepo4 out of the mouth of the company at innerbike so this confirms this. Its really surprising they did not go lipo and fit twice the density in the same size of pack...what were they thinking? Even 12k optibike uses lipo. And man that battery pack is the ugliest design feature on the bike...
48 volt and 17ah and a big motor its easy to guess what the real range is....i am thinking around 40 miles when really milking it. They may have gotten double that if using lipo but add a few pounds to weight. its suprising they did not put the batteries in the mono-coat frame...and by the way it looks like the bulk of the frame based on the video is not carbon fiber but some kind of metal (maybe magnesium) and the carbon fiber are just panels glued on top of that metal...so its kind of like carbon veneer explaining the boxy shape. Thats suprising...why not build the frame structure with carbon? I think actually the optibike has a better designed proprietary frame.
One of the most difficult things on this bike to build would be the carbon rims. The company claims it is the lightest most solid bicycle rim ever made on a bicycle and i somewhat believe them. From the link above both varus rims weigh 3lbs. Pg bikes will sale you a set of these rims for $12,000. If you do a rim search on alibaba you will get a zillion custom carbon rim manufacturers...i guess carbon rims in china is the thing now. They will even do custom work 2 at a time. i have been getting quotes on other custom rim configurations and its suprisingly expensive for any carbon rim even in china, and with those carbon spokes its going to be pricey... my guess is a rim like this in quantity of 10 would be over 1k each....so damn... just added 2k to our cost (if we are lucky). I cant even imagine what it would cost to build the same rim in a german f1 factory. i think the german founder of this company met a f1 factory guy drinking beer one night and got some great pricing on some custom carbon fiber work. We may have to stick to alloy rims and spokes...which can be had for a couple hundred bucks or so in good quality... my guess is the most expensive and hardest to replicate feature on that bike is its custom fiber rims....without those rims that bike would really be ugly.
The bike is also running custom schwab tires (i knew i never saw those before) so unless we have some good german contacts those tires are pretty much unobtanium. It looks like the tires were designed for high speed on the street on the straights and slight corners....we could make up for this with suspension and more of a versatile tire like the schwab marathon supreme.
It is using Hope Tech V2 Disc Brakes ventilated...suprisingly not the top of the line hydraulic brakes and can be had for $200.
I notice they are really minding the details...and the bike has custom carbon brake levers drilled out with weight saving holes.
I see what dogbog is saying they were holding back on there costs and cutting pennies in certain places...i think exlixir carbons would be a better fit for this bike...but nearly twice the cost. ($350)
Energy draw is "1.2 - 7 KW" based on adoption..no sweat for the predator motor...i bet they are limited by battery since they are running lifepo4 which is relatively low c rating. A standard $200 controller from Leon should be able to handle this...or is there an rc controller that would do better in a smaller lighter package? Can anyone suggest a safe rc controller that will power this at ebike speeds?
This bike is probably going to need a good deal of custom machining to mate that predator motor to the clean mobile drive system. That could be handled by a group member but will probably add atleast 1k to the price.
Probably the highlight of this bike is all its german engineered touches...the guys were really thinking and are obviously very hip and on there game. For example the led brake lights, rear lights on the back of the bike....super sweet. But notice they did not bother with turn signals even though it would have been easy because they probably figured it would be unnecessary and dorky on a ebike plus extra garbage (turn signal switch) on the handlebars. But if we learned nothing else....what a sweet design on a rear brake light! And turn signals are unnecessary! That type of light looks like it can be adapted to any bike design.
Also based on the link the bike is not available yet and will be released this summer...so apparently they are still in prototype/marketing phase and is the explanation why we are not seeing any real reports on these.
My guess right now is to build this bike in germany with mostly german components in production runs of around 10 or so cost the company atleast 25k. Probably to build the bike in china in runs of 10 would be around 10k if you were a real hustler and could find factories to deal with you in such small runs and the quality would be obv a big big step down. It makes sense for a low production 80k bike to have it all made in house in germany. I think there is a reason Germany is one of the only western companies whose economy is still bustling despite the china factor....dont try to compete on the cheap you will get steamrolled.
Supposedly it is just 48volt system, 17 ah battery..that would mean it has to be lifepo4 to weigh 20lbs.Ilia got lifepo4 out of the mouth of the company at innerbike so this confirms this. Its really surprising they did not go lipo and fit twice the density in the same size of pack...what were they thinking? Even 12k optibike uses lipo. And man that battery pack is the ugliest design feature on the bike...
48 volt and 17ah and a big motor its easy to guess what the real range is....i am thinking around 40 miles when really milking it. They may have gotten double that if using lipo but add a few pounds to weight. its suprising they did not put the batteries in the mono-coat frame...and by the way it looks like the bulk of the frame based on the video is not carbon fiber but some kind of metal (maybe magnesium) and the carbon fiber are just panels glued on top of that metal...so its kind of like carbon veneer explaining the boxy shape. Thats suprising...why not build the frame structure with carbon? I think actually the optibike has a better designed proprietary frame.
One of the most difficult things on this bike to build would be the carbon rims. The company claims it is the lightest most solid bicycle rim ever made on a bicycle and i somewhat believe them. From the link above both varus rims weigh 3lbs. Pg bikes will sale you a set of these rims for $12,000. If you do a rim search on alibaba you will get a zillion custom carbon rim manufacturers...i guess carbon rims in china is the thing now. They will even do custom work 2 at a time. i have been getting quotes on other custom rim configurations and its suprisingly expensive for any carbon rim even in china, and with those carbon spokes its going to be pricey... my guess is a rim like this in quantity of 10 would be over 1k each....so damn... just added 2k to our cost (if we are lucky). I cant even imagine what it would cost to build the same rim in a german f1 factory. i think the german founder of this company met a f1 factory guy drinking beer one night and got some great pricing on some custom carbon fiber work. We may have to stick to alloy rims and spokes...which can be had for a couple hundred bucks or so in good quality... my guess is the most expensive and hardest to replicate feature on that bike is its custom fiber rims....without those rims that bike would really be ugly.
The bike is also running custom schwab tires (i knew i never saw those before) so unless we have some good german contacts those tires are pretty much unobtanium. It looks like the tires were designed for high speed on the street on the straights and slight corners....we could make up for this with suspension and more of a versatile tire like the schwab marathon supreme.
It is using Hope Tech V2 Disc Brakes ventilated...suprisingly not the top of the line hydraulic brakes and can be had for $200.
I notice they are really minding the details...and the bike has custom carbon brake levers drilled out with weight saving holes.
I see what dogbog is saying they were holding back on there costs and cutting pennies in certain places...i think exlixir carbons would be a better fit for this bike...but nearly twice the cost. ($350)
Energy draw is "1.2 - 7 KW" based on adoption..no sweat for the predator motor...i bet they are limited by battery since they are running lifepo4 which is relatively low c rating. A standard $200 controller from Leon should be able to handle this...or is there an rc controller that would do better in a smaller lighter package? Can anyone suggest a safe rc controller that will power this at ebike speeds?
This bike is probably going to need a good deal of custom machining to mate that predator motor to the clean mobile drive system. That could be handled by a group member but will probably add atleast 1k to the price.
Probably the highlight of this bike is all its german engineered touches...the guys were really thinking and are obviously very hip and on there game. For example the led brake lights, rear lights on the back of the bike....super sweet. But notice they did not bother with turn signals even though it would have been easy because they probably figured it would be unnecessary and dorky on a ebike plus extra garbage (turn signal switch) on the handlebars. But if we learned nothing else....what a sweet design on a rear brake light! And turn signals are unnecessary! That type of light looks like it can be adapted to any bike design.
Also based on the link the bike is not available yet and will be released this summer...so apparently they are still in prototype/marketing phase and is the explanation why we are not seeing any real reports on these.
My guess right now is to build this bike in germany with mostly german components in production runs of around 10 or so cost the company atleast 25k. Probably to build the bike in china in runs of 10 would be around 10k if you were a real hustler and could find factories to deal with you in such small runs and the quality would be obv a big big step down. It makes sense for a low production 80k bike to have it all made in house in germany. I think there is a reason Germany is one of the only western companies whose economy is still bustling despite the china factor....dont try to compete on the cheap you will get steamrolled.
Green Machine
100 kW
Miles said:Why try to replicate this bike?
Miles,
Have you ever heard of fantasy football..this is "fantasy group buy"....but even if unproductive hopefully some of us can learn a little about the game...if we could only get the whole fleet of es engineers to chip in...
Just trying to learn something from the biggest most expensive and maybe even the smartest effort the world has every seen on a commercially available high performance ebike....and seriously would like to see a group buy on a clean mobile drive set up....why not? But we could probably not buy enough to wet their lips...and probably ES is the last place they would want their patented drive systems to show up...
Its interesting to learn from..for example if we have surmised that the thing is running a predator motor at 48 volt using lipo4..is it plausible the bikes top speed is 50-60mph as company claims? Guys on this group know the answer.
And i want my next bike to have a german made predator....i am really starting to like ze germans and the way they do things...I have never seen a drive system as slick as the harmonic clean-mobile crank system you posted link too...so i am evolving and learning
Only 3 lbs and 1200 watts...and the predator is 3lbs and 10,000 watts. I cant help it this stuff is exciting for me...can someone please point me out to good sphere build with that kind of monster motor?Does anyone have any clue on what a clean mobile drive system costs?
The sticker price is what is probably really shocking
But that is the price of inventing your own technology and manufacturing in germany.The sad part for germany is in 5 years time probably electric drivetrains of that quality will be coming out of china in mass at dirt cheap pricing...patent or no patent.
Kepler
10 MW
If we are going to go down the path of a "fantasy group buy", why go backwards in relation the best bike you could make? Copying what the Germans have made in the form of a Black Trail clone might be high tech and cutting edge, but it sure wont give you the best bike package you could possibly make with currently available off the shelf parts.
I get that your aim is to unravel the Black Trail puzzle and are tossing around ideas to replicate the bike or more to the point, bike concept. Good stuff. Very interesting and I have learnt heaps about this bike through the various threads. What it has really highlighted though is that it really isn't that misterious and exotic afterall
I get that your aim is to unravel the Black Trail puzzle and are tossing around ideas to replicate the bike or more to the point, bike concept. Good stuff. Very interesting and I have learnt heaps about this bike through the various threads. What it has really highlighted though is that it really isn't that misterious and exotic afterall
recumpence
1 GW
You made a comment about the frame being only partially carbon fiber based on watching the video. I think what you are seeing is the CNC machined carbon fiber frame molds. They lay the carbon fiber into those molds, then pull it from the molds when it is cured.
Matt
Matt
GrayKard
10 kW
So I guess the DD hub motor build you were drooling for is on the back burner now? Have you considered switching to decafe? 8)
Green Machine
100 kW
Right Matt...so it is a carbon lay up.
the big question for me is why bother with a carbon lay up when your not even going to build the batteries into the frame...seems like a lot of hassle just to hide a controller and some wiring.
i thought high budget off the hook electric bikes distinguished themselves by hiding all components in the frame... its seems hiding batteries within the frame is atleast a 2k option.
Also there decision to go with bulky lifepo4 baffles me. And why have it externally mounted? At 20lbs no one is going to bother carrying a second one in a back pack. These guys were obv thinkers...what were they thinking with there battery choice?
my guess is they didnt want to take a chance of having a 80 thousand dollar bike have its innards blown out in a lipo fire.
And lighweigh carbon monocat is probably not as good as containing fire as the optibike and picycle which are both built with thick aluminum monocoat.
the big question for me is why bother with a carbon lay up when your not even going to build the batteries into the frame...seems like a lot of hassle just to hide a controller and some wiring.
i thought high budget off the hook electric bikes distinguished themselves by hiding all components in the frame... its seems hiding batteries within the frame is atleast a 2k option.
Also there decision to go with bulky lifepo4 baffles me. And why have it externally mounted? At 20lbs no one is going to bother carrying a second one in a back pack. These guys were obv thinkers...what were they thinking with there battery choice?
my guess is they didnt want to take a chance of having a 80 thousand dollar bike have its innards blown out in a lipo fire.
And lighweigh carbon monocat is probably not as good as containing fire as the optibike and picycle which are both built with thick aluminum monocoat.
Green Machine
100 kW
GrayKard said:
No still working on the dd...
Building a dd is cheap and easy
wont distract me too much.The only real big disadvantage i see to the dd is the weight. Everyone is raving about the new light crystallites..but from what i can tell only the less powerful front wheel drive is 13 lbs and the rear wheel drives are 16 lbs...and that is much lighter than they use to be. 16lbs added to one wheel seems to me to be a heck of a lot.
The blacktrail supposesly weighs 44 lbs and 20 of that is battery..i find that really hard to believe by the way...but the only way numbers like that are possible is with using a 3lb motor etc...
Who here on the sphere has put a powerhouse motor like that on a bicycle and kept it light...can anyone point me to a blacktrail like build mid drive here on es?? Also do i understand that the clean mobile system blacktrail is using has a build in planetary gear set...so that pedal gears and motor gears are being handled automatically through the clean mobile?
Has anyone had their hands on a high end clean mobile drive system?
Green Machine
100 kW
I was thinking about that too.
i am wondering what people who have experimented with this kind of high end high power rc motor is it possible to get 65mph at 48 volts...do you lose anything with that clean mobile system? Does the clean mobile system provide multiple gears??
in the company literature they talk about "different configurations" on the blacktrail from 1.5k to 7k...
i am wondering if they sale a 72 volt battery to instantly convert it to a faster bike....i think this motor would have no problem propelling a 44 pound bike and 150 pound writer to 65mph at 72 volts...but at 48 volts this sounds very iffy.
All i know is in 2001 at a the woodburn NEDRA elecrtric drag race, i did 57mph on a 48 volt e-tech lead acid pocket bike (i was just the rider thunderstruck motors was the builder)....back then that was 48 volt record...but i imagine with high end components like these and high gearing...65 mphmight be plausible at 48 volts...but i am just guessing more like 45-50mph...maybe the rc motor is less efficient than etech...and i really doubt lipo4 batteries have the amperage needed even at 20amp hours for this kind of power...but thats why i am begging for some es engineer input...
i am wondering what people who have experimented with this kind of high end high power rc motor is it possible to get 65mph at 48 volts...do you lose anything with that clean mobile system? Does the clean mobile system provide multiple gears??
in the company literature they talk about "different configurations" on the blacktrail from 1.5k to 7k...
i am wondering if they sale a 72 volt battery to instantly convert it to a faster bike....i think this motor would have no problem propelling a 44 pound bike and 150 pound writer to 65mph at 72 volts...but at 48 volts this sounds very iffy.
All i know is in 2001 at a the woodburn NEDRA elecrtric drag race, i did 57mph on a 48 volt e-tech lead acid pocket bike (i was just the rider thunderstruck motors was the builder)....back then that was 48 volt record...but i imagine with high end components like these and high gearing...65 mphmight be plausible at 48 volts...but i am just guessing more like 45-50mph...maybe the rc motor is less efficient than etech...and i really doubt lipo4 batteries have the amperage needed even at 20amp hours for this kind of power...but thats why i am begging for some es engineer input...
GrayKard
10 kW
Well from reading on here it looks like going fast with an RC motor at low volts is common. The motors are wound really really fast compared to a hub and they use amps to get the watts up to what is needed. That's why these RC motors are so hard on ebike controllers also.
Take what I say about RC with a grain of salt as I have yet to do a non hub build.
Gary
Take what I say about RC with a grain of salt as I have yet to do a non hub build.
Gary
recumpence
1 GW
My yellow trike (in my Avatar) is geared for 44mph and will spin the tire getting there. It is capable of over 60mph if I geared it up. But, that is not what I am looking for.
Yes, 60mph is possible with one large RC motor. However, at that speed, the pack will run down REALLY fast!
Matt
Yes, 60mph is possible with one large RC motor. However, at that speed, the pack will run down REALLY fast!
Matt
Hillhater
100 TW
extremegreenmachine said:
:x :x ..the word is .." MONOCOQUE".. ..meaning .."single shell" .
Green Machine
100 kW
Hillhater wrote:
extremegreenmachine wrote:
....its suprising they did not put the batteries in the mono-coat frame..
..... lighweigh carbon monocat is probably not as good as containing fire as the optibike and picycle which are both built with thick aluminum monocoat.
..the word is .." MONOCOQUE".. ..meaning .."single shell" .
thanks hillhater...unexpectedly learned something from this thread. thanks. as an english major i have no excuses...but then again....
I want to apologize in retrospect and in advance for all past and future misspellings...and thank the folks here at es for having a built in spell checker or there would be tons more....just dont put much weight in spelling...never did...way prefer to be a prolific poster than an anal speller. But as long as i am getting the points across i am happy. i type fast and post fast...thus all the half baked ideas but if i put more weigh on grammar my points would really flounder. Plus it would be a real chore to post and i would never do it...i know i know make a lot of guys here happier.
Almost failed out of high school because my high school teachers hated sloppy spelling but in college believe it or not they didnt mind it. I use to do thinks like invent my own words a lot which i guess is technically misspelling, in this case i think i improved a word...
coque means ribbon or feathers for tying on to hat...who the hell is going to remember monocoque when coque means some kind of bow tie.
The official definiton of monocoque is this: a type of construction (as of a fuselage) in which the outer skin carries all or a major part of the stresses
that sounds like an outer "coat" made out of metal or carbon fiber to me...so 'monocoat" seems better fit and is very similiar in sound so the es experts will know exactly what i am refferring to even though misspelled. Monocoque literally would not mean single frame but single ribbon or bow tie.
some snooty french bastard made up the word monocoque and it doesnt make any sense thus it is super rare word...so i will stick with just monocoat...as in the outer skin like a coat. Hopefully it starts to stick with some guy here on the sphere and he puts it in his next ebike engineering book and we can actually accomplish together make a slight improvement on the English language which is already hard language to learn and to use.
Monocoat is an easy word to remember and makes sense and may even have chance of sticing.
I never heard of a word being changed or invented on an internet forum...but in literature words are invented or changed all the time through time.
:lol:
extremegreenmachine wrote:
....its suprising they did not put the batteries in the mono-coat frame..
..... lighweigh carbon monocat is probably not as good as containing fire as the optibike and picycle which are both built with thick aluminum monocoat.
..the word is .." MONOCOQUE".. ..meaning .."single shell" .
thanks hillhater...unexpectedly learned something from this thread. thanks. as an english major i have no excuses...but then again....
I want to apologize in retrospect and in advance for all past and future misspellings...and thank the folks here at es for having a built in spell checker or there would be tons more....just dont put much weight in spelling...never did...way prefer to be a prolific poster than an anal speller. But as long as i am getting the points across i am happy. i type fast and post fast...thus all the half baked ideas but if i put more weigh on grammar my points would really flounder. Plus it would be a real chore to post and i would never do it...i know i know make a lot of guys here happier.
Almost failed out of high school because my high school teachers hated sloppy spelling but in college believe it or not they didnt mind it. I use to do thinks like invent my own words a lot which i guess is technically misspelling, in this case i think i improved a word...
coque means ribbon or feathers for tying on to hat...who the hell is going to remember monocoque when coque means some kind of bow tie.
The official definiton of monocoque is this: a type of construction (as of a fuselage) in which the outer skin carries all or a major part of the stresses
that sounds like an outer "coat" made out of metal or carbon fiber to me...so 'monocoat" seems better fit and is very similiar in sound so the es experts will know exactly what i am refferring to even though misspelled. Monocoque literally would not mean single frame but single ribbon or bow tie.
some snooty french bastard made up the word monocoque and it doesnt make any sense thus it is super rare word...so i will stick with just monocoat...as in the outer skin like a coat. Hopefully it starts to stick with some guy here on the sphere and he puts it in his next ebike engineering book and we can actually accomplish together make a slight improvement on the English language which is already hard language to learn and to use.
Monocoat is an easy word to remember and makes sense and may even have chance of sticing.
I never heard of a word being changed or invented on an internet forum...but in literature words are invented or changed all the time through time.
:lol:
Hillhater
100 TW
extremegreenmachine said:
So, despite being a self professed "English major" , you are going to ignore hundreds of years of established use and common recognition by professionals and amateurs and simply change the word to suit your own limited linguistic ability whilst at the same time presuming that all other forum readers will accept your "personalised" language
! I wonder where we would be if we all decided to change technical terms just because we could not be bothered to learn the correct one !
If you ever did study language, you should know the answer to that question. !
Green Machine
100 kW
SO more information on the blacktrail that explains some of the marketing hype. I got this off a german article translated through google.
When you buy the bike you choose a motor configuration...so the predator motor is only one choice of motor...the kw range is between 1.5k and 7k.
Also the range depending on the motor you choose and your riding style can range between 20km and 100km.
For sure the 65mph bike is just a nich product...and the ones that will be delivered to jay leno etc will be more safe and sane 35-40mph bikes.
Another famous actor who has bought a bike is supposedly Orlando Bloom who is suppose to receive one of the first bikes.
The first bikes were delivered in march of this year...and it sounds like just a few bikes.
The bike is cooperative effort betwen pg-bikes, UBC Engineering GmbH, Murr and Clean Mobile AG
When you buy the bike you choose a motor configuration...so the predator motor is only one choice of motor...the kw range is between 1.5k and 7k.
Also the range depending on the motor you choose and your riding style can range between 20km and 100km.
For sure the 65mph bike is just a nich product...and the ones that will be delivered to jay leno etc will be more safe and sane 35-40mph bikes.
Another famous actor who has bought a bike is supposedly Orlando Bloom who is suppose to receive one of the first bikes.
The first bikes were delivered in march of this year...and it sounds like just a few bikes.
The bike is cooperative effort betwen pg-bikes, UBC Engineering GmbH, Murr and Clean Mobile AG
recumpence
1 GW
Jay featured the bike on his web site. But I do not think he bought one.
Matt
Matt
Green Machine
100 kW
SO got word back from clean mobile about there drive systems...i emailed them out of curiosity and got the polite response below....
Obviously pedego got in big with them by selling massive amounts of ebikes on ebay etc...and was able to get a blacktrail type clean mobile system on their new prototype:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150170986899360.317606.39254689359
Nice move pedigo! Those thousand of ebay adds they posted paid off.
Those germans are doing it right..gotta hand it to them...seem way ahead of the curve.
Obviously pedego got in big with them by selling massive amounts of ebikes on ebay etc...and was able to get a blacktrail type clean mobile system on their new prototype:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150170986899360.317606.39254689359
Nice move pedigo! Those thousand of ebay adds they posted paid off.
Those germans are doing it right..gotta hand it to them...seem way ahead of the curve.
Green Machine
100 kW
ok i was assuming it was a pedego bike because it was posted on their facebook page as "next generation bike"....how do you know its not pedego miles?
Also pedego seems to have a line with clean mobile which has some top secret drives like the one used on the blacktrail which are developed specifically per bike as that letter states from clean mobile. So how do you know its not a clean mobile?
I know your probably right....but come on miles super link man....shoot me the links i know you got cocked and loaded. :wink: give me some of that doped bike dope.
Also pedego seems to have a line with clean mobile which has some top secret drives like the one used on the blacktrail which are developed specifically per bike as that letter states from clean mobile. So how do you know its not a clean mobile?
I know your probably right....but come on miles super link man....shoot me the links i know you got cocked and loaded. :wink: give me some of that doped bike dope.
Green Machine
100 kW
Miles you are really up on your bikes and your links..i gotta hand it to you....i think its kind of misleading that pedego put pics on their facebook page without crediting whose bike it was...pretty low...bordering on unethical.
In private email interchange i heard a rumor clean-mobile was designing a drive system for pedigo....because of pedigo's supposed large market. When i saw that on facebook page i thought wow...there it is.
In private email interchange i heard a rumor clean-mobile was designing a drive system for pedigo....because of pedigo's supposed large market. When i saw that on facebook page i thought wow...there it is.
Byte
1 kW
Sorry for posting in an old topic, but I was reading this and saw a question about the ESC... In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BwPVkWCTgA you can see a controller at 2:11. I don't know what the exact controller is, but I do know it's made by Schulze. (Also a German company, known as the most priciest RC ESC manufactor, just like plettenberg. But also known for their superior quality.)
Link to the ESC's: http://www.schulze-elektronik-gmbh.de/prs24_d.htm It's one of the last 4 esc's used for this bike.
Link to the ESC's: http://www.schulze-elektronik-gmbh.de/prs24_d.htm It's one of the last 4 esc's used for this bike.
