BMS compatible with discharge bypass ?

aeskellion

100 µW
Joined
Jun 22, 2024
Messages
8
Location
France
I bought a Daly BMS for a 52V pack, and it cuts off at 45.5v which while good for the cells it is a bit high. My Bac855 already has a low cut off point at 42v. Is there a way to maybe bypass the BMS on discharge only ? I heard some BMS don't allow charge if you do a bypass and I was wondering if the Dalys do that too.
 
If it's a Daly it should be programmable based on previous threads and posts about them, so you just change the cell level LVC.

If you bypass discharge protection and rely on a pack level LVC, you have zero protection against cell damage from overdischarge, overcurrent, etc., and can unknowingly cause damage to the cells that can lead to a fire.

Not much point in having the BMS if you're not going to let it do it's job. ;)


If the cell LVC is already what it should be but you see early cutoff at a higher total pack voltage, then that means you have a battery fault, usually damaged or defective cells, that are causing that.

If there are already cells dropping low enough to trigger LVC and shutdown, then eliminating this protection to continue discharging beyond that point means you will overdischarge and damage those cells, and set yourself up for a potential fire.
 
You can build the pack with the BMS balance cables, but instead of installing the BMS directly onto the pack, you can add your favorite connector to the pack. Then, install the BMS to that connector, with B- connected and a straight positive line to the next connector. The BMS would obviously go on the negative side of the next connector.


This way, when you want to use the BMS, just plug the controller into the BMS that's already installed. If you want to bypass it, simply remove the BMS. It's similar to how RC batteries are designed.
 
You can build the pack with the BMS balance cables, but instead of installing the BMS directly onto the pack, you can add your favorite connector to the pack. Then, install the BMS to that connector, with B- connected and a straight positive line to the next connector. The BMS would obviously go on the negative side of the next connector.


This way, when you want to use the BMS, just plug the controller into the BMS that's already installed. If you want to bypass it, simply remove the BMS. It's similar to how RC batteries are designed.
Just remember that doing this leaves you with no protection against cell damage when the BMS is not present and in the circuit.

Cell damage can lead to fires, which is why BMSes are used in the first place.
 
This is correct and I completely agree with you. I am just giving the option for people want to bypass BMS just for a race for example. They do not need to eliminate the BMS permanently in this way. I personally like to setup like this not for bypassing the BMS but for testing different BMS easier. I can swap BMS in seconds.
 
If it's a Daly it should be programmable based on previous threads and posts about them, so you just change the cell level LVC.

If you bypass discharge protection and rely on a pack level LVC, you have zero protection against cell damage from overdischarge, overcurrent, etc., and can unknowingly cause damage to the cells that can lead to a fire.

Not much point in having the BMS if you're not going to let it do it's job. ;)


If the cell LVC is already what it should be but you see early cutoff at a higher total pack voltage, then that means you have a battery fault, usually damaged or defective cells, that are causing that.

If there are already cells dropping low enough to trigger LVC and shutdown, then eliminating this protection to continue discharging beyond that point means you will overdischarge and damage those cells, and set yourself up for a potential fire.
I tested every group, on the balance leads each group shows the same voltage. I don’t think the model I have is programmable, so maybe I just need to get another BMS…
 
Not much point in having the BMS if you're not going to let it do it's job. ;)
My one remaining pack that has a BMS (as opposed to a balance board only) discharges directly from its pack terminals. I still get HVC on the charge plug, plus top balancing. My bikes do LVC at the controller level, and I get to use a 35A BMS with cells that are rated for 300A continuous.
 
I bought a Daly BMS for a 52V pack, and it cuts off at 45.5v which while good for the cells it is a bit high. My Bac855 already has a low cut off point at 42v. Is there a way to maybe bypass the BMS on discharge only ? I heard some BMS don't allow charge if you do a bypass and I was wondering if the Dalys do that too.
If the BMS is not a smart BMS there is not too much we can do to help.
 
My one remaining pack that has a BMS (as opposed to a balance board only) discharges directly from its pack terminals. I still get HVC on the charge plug, plus top balancing. My bikes do LVC at the controller level, and I get to use a 35A BMS with cells that are rated for 300A continuous.
Sure, but you are using good-quality EV-grade cells that are almost certainly well-matched.

That's true of extremely few battery packs on ebikes and other small EVs. Yours, mine, Dogdipstick, Liveforphysics...the handful of A123 prismatic cell users from way back. Probably a dozen others here on ES that I don't recall specific names of, possibly others I don't know about. A few times that many outside the forum.

Almost all ebike packs out there these days are either cheap 18650 or other cylindricals, or cheap poorly-assembled small-capacity prismatic packs with no compression, etc. Virtually none of these will be matched-characteristics cells,


This is correct and I completely agree with you. I am just giving the option for people want to bypass BMS just for a race for example. They do not need to eliminate the BMS permanently in this way. I personally like to setup like this not for bypassing the BMS but for testing different BMS easier. I can swap BMS in seconds.

The reason I posted what I did here (and do elsewhere when this comes up) is that most people bypassing a BMS (rather than building a pack wihtout one, using cells that are relatively safe to use that way) are doing so because they are having a battery problem already, and bypassing the BMS is high risk in these cases, because they don't usually understand why what is happening is happening, and think the BMS is broken, when in fact it's doing exactly what it is supposed to do.

Or they think it's just too expensive to buy a new battery so they'll just keep using the one they have and take out the safety system keeping them from damaging it so badly that it fails catastrophically.


So my posts are a warning not just to the actual poster, but to all those that find the thread later and read it so they don't think it's just safe and all ok to just bypass the thing that is probably keeping them from having a fire. ;)



I tested every group, on the balance leads each group shows the same voltage. I don’t think the model I have is programmable, so maybe I just need to get another BMS…

Critical information:

Is that under load? Or just sitting there? At what state of charge? When full? When it shuts off? What actual voltage, to two decimal places, do they read in each situation?****

Those are what you'd need to know to determine that the cells are "balanced", but this still doesn't tell you if they are all identical properties (matched); as over time, slight differences in them that don't show up in a single charge/discharge cycle would over time cause differences in voltage that are worse and worse, and without a BMS to protect against it can allow the worst cells to drop below a safe limit or even reverse (negative voltage).

If they're not identical in all those digits, they're not the same voltage, and if they ever were the same, then they are changing in voltage because the cells are not matched, and it will grow worse over time.



If a pack is used with discharge protection bypassed this way, then with luck the BMS will be well enough designed to prevent recharge in this situation. But if charge protection is then bypassed for any reason, further cell damage will probably happen, and a fire could happen, at any point after the initial damage, and there is no way to know when this may happen.

The same thing can hapen if the BMS is not correctly designed, so that once a cell drops far enough below it's limit it no longer considers it to be belwo the limit, but instead ignores it's existence thinking there is no cell attached.




If you have good quality well-matched (identical in capacity, internal resistance, etc) cells that always remain identical in voltage regardless of state of charge or load, and they are more than capable of providing the current the system requires under it's worst case load even when they are down just above empty, then it's safe enough to run without a BMS for discharge.


Otherwise, I'd recommend leaving the BMS's protections in place.


If you do decide to bypass the BMS anyway, I highly recommend adding at least a light or buzzer or both to it so that if it trips the protection on, you'll at least know that it has done so. Then you can check the cell voltages to be sure none are dropping below their safe levels (including under load), in which case you stop immediately, and preferably that none are different from each other in which case you can decide what to do about the mismatch later.
 
Sure, but you are using good-quality EV-grade cells that are almost certainly well-matched.

That's true of extremely few battery packs on ebikes and other small EVs. Yours, mine, Dogdipstick, Liveforphysics...the handful of A123 prismatic cell users from way back. Probably a dozen others here on ES that I don't recall specific names of, possibly others I don't know about. A few times that many outside the forum.

Almost all ebike packs out there these days are either cheap 18650 or other cylindricals, or cheap poorly-assembled small-capacity prismatic packs with no compression, etc. Virtually none of these will be matched-characteristics cells,




The reason I posted what I did here (and do elsewhere when this comes up) is that most people bypassing a BMS (rather than building a pack wihtout one, using cells that are relatively safe to use that way) are doing so because they are having a battery problem already, and bypassing the BMS is high risk in these cases, because they don't usually understand why what is happening is happening, and think the BMS is broken, when in fact it's doing exactly what it is supposed to do.

Or they think it's just too expensive to buy a new battery so they'll just keep using the one they have and take out the safety system keeping them from damaging it so badly that it fails catastrophically.


So my posts are a warning not just to the actual poster, but to all those that find the thread later and read it so they don't think it's just safe and all ok to just bypass the thing that is probably keeping them from having a fire. ;)





Critical information:

Is that under load? Or just sitting there? At what state of charge? When full? When it shuts off? What actual voltage, to two decimal places, do they read in each situation?****

Those are what you'd need to know to determine that the cells are "balanced", but this still doesn't tell you if they are all identical properties (matched); as over time, slight differences in them that don't show up in a single charge/discharge cycle would over time cause differences in voltage that are worse and worse, and without a BMS to protect against it can allow the worst cells to drop below a safe limit or even reverse (negative voltage).

If they're not identical in all those digits, they're not the same voltage, and if they ever were the same, then they are changing in voltage because the cells are not matched, and it will grow worse over time.



If a pack is used with discharge protection bypassed this way, then with luck the BMS will be well enough designed to prevent recharge in this situation. But if charge protection is then bypassed for any reason, further cell damage will probably happen, and a fire could happen, at any point after the initial damage, and there is no way to know when this may happen.

The same thing can hapen if the BMS is not correctly designed, so that once a cell drops far enough below it's limit it no longer considers it to be belwo the limit, but instead ignores it's existence thinking there is no cell attached.




If you have good quality well-matched (identical in capacity, internal resistance, etc) cells that always remain identical in voltage regardless of state of charge or load, and they are more than capable of providing the current the system requires under it's worst case load even when they are down just above empty, then it's safe enough to run without a BMS for discharge.


Otherwise, I'd recommend leaving the BMS's protections in place.


If you do decide to bypass the BMS anyway, I highly recommend adding at least a light or buzzer or both to it so that if it trips the protection on, you'll at least know that it has done so. Then you can check the cell voltages to be sure none are dropping below their safe levels (including under load), in which case you stop immediately, and preferably that none are different from each other in which case you can decide what to do about the mismatch later.
Thank you for all that knowledge. I think it’s best to upgrade to a higher quality BMS, smart BMS, that will show me more information about my groups and will be programmable.
 
Back
Top