Bosch 36V fatpacks opened up
- Thread starter John in CR
- Start date
oofnik said:
They have a super consistent discharge/charge profile from what I've seen so far. I ran CBA II tests on each of the 42 18650Vs I got from harvest packs and the discharge lines overlapped themselves all but identically for all 42 cells. It was kind of weird actually... thought I was doing something wrong. The same type tests with around a dozen emolis harvest cells had lines all over the place.
oofnik said:Hmm, that's very interesting.
Could this be attributed to excellent QC at the factory? If I understand correctly both the Sony cells and the Emolis are LiMn chemistry. Is there any other difference between them? What gives?
No idea. I think that just because two batts list as LiMn doesn't necessarily mean they are the same at all. Like.. I'm not so sure konions use the spinel stuff that emolis do. And who knows how their cathodes and anodes are put together... densities etc. etc. In my case it could also be that the emoli harvest cells I got were pretty shot already. The konions could have all been from the same original purchase (it was only 6 makita harvest packs I got). Size may have something to do with it.. 18650 vs 26650.. hopefully some smart person "in the know" will comment.
Were I a betting man and knowing the general quality of Sony products I've owned in the past I'd say it was likely their very strict QC... which makes me wonder where the pile of konion rejects are living.. I'd take'um! :wink:
dimitrib90
100 W
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pwbset said:oofnik said:Hmm, that's very interesting.
Could this be attributed to excellent QC at the factory? If I understand correctly both the Sony cells and the Emolis are LiMn chemistry. Is there any other difference between them? What gives?
Were I a betting man and knowing the general quality of Sony products I've owned in the past I'd say it was likely their very strict QC... which makes me wonder where the pile of konion rejects are living.. I'd take'um! :wink:
They are going to Doctorbass!!! Thats who.
John in CR
100 TW
dimitrib90 said:pwbset said:oofnik said:Hmm, that's very interesting.
Could this be attributed to excellent QC at the factory? If I understand correctly both the Sony cells and the Emolis are LiMn chemistry. Is there any other difference between them? What gives?
Were I a betting man and knowing the general quality of Sony products I've owned in the past I'd say it was likely their very strict QC... which makes me wonder where the pile of konion rejects are living.. I'd take'um! :wink:
They are going to Doctorbass!!! Thats who.
I thought those were warranty returns, not factory rejects. Not important to me, I'm just glad the good doctor had an extra 1kw AND that I was the first to spot it in the Items for Sale. 29 packs (not Bosch fatties, but still konions) clear Customs today or Monday, yippee! That will give me 400+ konions.
John
dimitrib90
100 W
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2008
- Messages
- 142
John in CR said:I thought those were warranty returns, not factory rejects. Not important to me, I'm just glad the good doctor had an extra 1kw AND that I was the first to spot it in the Items for Sale. 29 packs (not Bosch fatties, but still konions) clear Customs today or Monday, yippee! That will give me 400+ konions.
John
Not fair. I wanted those 400 konions too.
John in CR
100 TW
dimitrib90 said:John in CR said:I thought those were warranty returns, not factory rejects. Not important to me, I'm just glad the good doctor had an extra 1kw AND that I was the first to spot it in the Items for Sale. 29 packs (not Bosch fatties, but still konions) clear Customs today or Monday, yippee! That will give me 400+ konions.
John
Not fair. I wanted those 400 konions too.
Sorry, but you gotta be quick to catch Dr.Bass's sales. :lol: That was only half of my stock, and will require some sorting testing and soldering. I bought the other 200 from Tom in 10 brand new Bosch fatpacks 6 of which are cannibalized in the pics above, though I'm not sure everything is the same cells.
John
John in CR said:
Mixing Vs and VTs.. let us know how that goes. I've got a few VTs to play with, but can't wrap my head around how to combine them with the Vs in a sensible way yet. Don't want the VTs lower capacity pulling down the Vs. Not entirely sold that the spec max voltages are the same either, but both will happily overcharge a bit without too much damage I bet... specifically the VTs to 4.2v to match the Vs instead of the supposed 4.1v spec. Who knows... following your adventure with glee though.. fun stuff.
Doctorbass
100 GW
Play with Konoin cells!.. But never mix in serie the VT and V !!
what you can do is to make many parallel group with mixed V and VT in each group.. but every group MUST have the same ratio of VT and V!! so the total capacit of every parallel group MUST be the same!
I will test the IR of the VT cells soon.. i didn't that from now.
The IR of the V is generally between 40 and 60 miliohms.. not bad for 1.5Ah cell
That mean that around 5 parallels will have the same IR than an A123 cell (10 miliohm) for a 6Ah and 10C (60A)
Doc
!!what you can do is to make many parallel group with mixed V and VT in each group.. but every group MUST have the same ratio of VT and V!! so the total capacit of every parallel group MUST be the same!
I will test the IR of the VT cells soon.. i didn't that from now.
The IR of the V is generally between 40 and 60 miliohms.. not bad for 1.5Ah cell
That mean that around 5 parallels will have the same IR than an A123 cell (10 miliohm) for a 6Ah and 10C (60A)
Doc
pgt400
1 kW
The more I read about these the more I like, I see the Fatpacks listed new on Ebay for $45 shipped!
John in CR
100 TW
pwbset said:pgt400 said:
That's $2.25 a cell or around $0.50/wh for brand new 10C+ konions. Crazy good deal!
Doc's going to have to lower his prices, but the work savings of new packs is hard to beat at that price. Under $.50/wh in our use shipped is outstanding. We need to figure out how to get wholesale pricing, which is probably $30/pack. Electric cars are coming soon!
John
etard
100 kW
I don't think they are making a profit at that price, I asked about discount on multiple packs and they said the price is firm. I already bought 4 for $300 shipped with two chargers (charger is HUGE by the way) and couldn't help but buy another at that price. Definately a better deal than the A123's seeing as how they are half the price. But now I see why John tore them apart and made a custom pack, in stock form they are very bulky, although bulletproof.
Does anybody know how many amps each toolpack will put out? I want to run them stock and mount 2 on my bike (at 36 volts), then rotate out when those discharge.
Does anybody know how many amps each toolpack will put out? I want to run them stock and mount 2 on my bike (at 36 volts), then rotate out when those discharge.
Doctorbass
100 GW
etard said:I don't think they are making a profit at that price, I asked about discount on multiple packs and they said the price is firm. I already bought 4 for $300 shipped with two chargers (charger is HUGE by the way) and couldn't help but buy another at that price. Definately a better deal than the A123's seeing as how they are half the price. But now I see why John tore them apart and made a custom pack, in stock form they are very bulky, although bulletproof.
Does anybody know how many amps each toolpack will put out? I want to run them stock and mount 2 on my bike (at 36 volts), then rotate out when those discharge.
the recommanded max current a VT cell can give is 22A.. and the V cell is 15A.
The Vt are the cell in the fatpack and in the 1.5 Ah Makita LXT packs
The V cell are only found in the 14.4 and 18V LXT makita.. and bionX lithium battery BL36.
in the fatpack as mentionned they are mounted in10s 2p so that mean 2x 22A =44A max out of the cell.. but out of the packit's different.. i dont know if there is an internal comutating circuit like relay or mosfet...
I would not recommand drawing 44A continuously cause the real limit of any li-ion cells i sthe heat.. so the too high heat could dammage the cells and lower its cycle life...
also.. the bosh fatpack cell (the VT) have a nominal voltage of 3.7V instead of 3.3 like the Dewalt. that mean in 10s configuration they have 37V nominal(nominal mean the voltage at half the energy discharged)
and.. these cells charge at 4.1V max so 41V for the entire pack freshly charged.
max power is 41V x 44A = 1804W (2.5hp) out of this pack for burst power demand
the continuous current without heat problem issue is around 5A per cell so 10A for the 10s2p pack at 37V = 370Watts continuous. that's 4C rate so the total time of run with 370W power is 15 minutes. not bad..
the total energy (expressed in Watt hour) is 37 x 2.2Ah = 81Wh
Doc
etard
100 kW
Thanks DOC, that was spot on. OK, its sounds like I can put 3 paralleled with an HV110. I guess I will be buying another battery to make it an even 6.
John,
How are you charging your rebuilt pack? It looks a lot more compact as seen in the picture,I am thinking of doing the same too.
OK, its sounds like I can put 3 paralleled with an HV110. I guess I will be buying another battery to make it an even 6. John,
How are you charging your rebuilt pack? It looks a lot more compact as seen in the picture,I am thinking of doing the same too.
theyerb
100 W
I just ordered a few of these on eBay to play around with. I bought the packs for $44.95 shipped!!!, which is a killer price, but the stamp on the pack makes me wonder: K68830T 2006. I wonder if those last four numbers are the year it was produced... And I still don't exactly understand why one of the packs won't run my AmpedBike kit without cutting out briefly every 5 seconds. 
etard
100 kW
Yeah, mine all had the 2006 # on them too, it made me wonder as well. But still a killer deal even if they lost a little capacity.
theyerb
100 W
How are the batteries running? What kind of distance and speed are you getting, and what voltage? thx- I'm planning on doing pretty much the exact same thing as you, and a bit of info could help in the planning
The price gets lower and lower. Just amazing.theyerb said:I just ordered a few of these on eBay to play around with. I bought the packs for $44.95 shipped!!!, which is a killer price, but the stamp on the pack makes me wonder: K68830T 2006. I wonder if those last four numbers are the year it was produced... And I still don't exactly understand why one of the packs won't run my AmpedBike kit without cutting out briefly every 5 seconds.
etard
100 kW
I plan on running them in parallel with only 2 installed on the bike, and 2 or 4 in a backpack if I need more distance so I can switch out or run a light setup. I am using aluminum "U" channel beam like this from Mcmaster-Carr to slide the battery into face to face
I will just slide the battery into connectors at the bottom and the whole thing will be mounted behind my bike seat on the post. I would be interested in other methods as mine may not be the sturdiest. I have not got a chance to do any sort of testing on these batteries, I hope they are all good though :?
I will just slide the battery into connectors at the bottom and the whole thing will be mounted behind my bike seat on the post. I would be interested in other methods as mine may not be the sturdiest. I have not got a chance to do any sort of testing on these batteries, I hope they are all good though :?
theyerb
100 W
How are you guys charging the Bosch 36v packs? I have two of them in parallel on my ebike now and they work AWESOME! But my intelligent SLA charger overcharges them to 43.3 volts.
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