docnjoj
1 GW
Yes IC57 it seems a little odd to me too. We have 2 15 mile rides coming up this weekend and maybe I can get some better data.
otherDoc
otherDoc
Bosch 36V fatpacks opened up
- Thread starter John in CR
- Start date
PeteCress
1 kW
Back on 11 September,
How has the eZee motor held up under all that power?jkirkeboe said:
StudEbiker
100 kW
Is this a good charger for two FatPacks wired in parallel?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Universal-Smart-2-0A-Charger-for-36V-37V-Li-Ion-Battery_W0QQitemZ250604721068QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a593493ac
http://cgi.ebay.com/Universal-Smart-2-0A-Charger-for-36V-37V-Li-Ion-Battery_W0QQitemZ250604721068QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a593493ac
Russell
1 MW
StudEbiker said:
You need to find out if the charger output is adjustable because you'll want to set it lower than 42V (I settled on 41.3V).
I used a cheap brick from ecitypower (model 3602);
http://www.ecitypower.com/index.php...=article&id=25:abs&catid=40:charger&Itemid=83
If you want to step up to a nicer model go with their alloy 240W model J;
http://www.ecitypower.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=17&Itemid=86
http://cgi.ebay.com/EBike-240W-Charger-for-LiFePO4-Li-Ion-Lead-Acid-Battery_W0QQitemZ120464342653QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0c3bfe7d
I own one of each and both are adjustable.
-R
StudEbiker
100 kW
I'm building this pack for someone that wants to ride soon. Do you know where I could source one stateside?
TPA
10 kW
You could get the charger that was originally meant to be used with those batteries and charge Otherdoc style.
You carefully harvest one of the circuit boards from one of the packs, solder new lead wires to it, add connectors to the wires. You leave the circuit board on the charger, build the parallel pack with matching connectors.
When you want to charge you just plug into the circuit board.
Those chargers are regularly available on ebay for less than $30.
http://cgi.ebay.com/BOSCH-36-VOLT-BATTERY-CHARGER-MODEL-BC830_W0QQitemZ150426941836QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDrills?hash=item230624f98c
You carefully harvest one of the circuit boards from one of the packs, solder new lead wires to it, add connectors to the wires. You leave the circuit board on the charger, build the parallel pack with matching connectors.
When you want to charge you just plug into the circuit board.
Those chargers are regularly available on ebay for less than $30.
http://cgi.ebay.com/BOSCH-36-VOLT-BATTERY-CHARGER-MODEL-BC830_W0QQitemZ150426941836QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDrills?hash=item230624f98c
StudEbiker
100 kW
Don't those charge the batteries pretty conservatively though? Initially the customer is only going to run two packs so I would like for her to get as much power out of them as she can.
Russell
1 MW
StudEbiker said:
The key is whether the charger is adjustable so check with the seller of the charger you originally spotted to see if it is.
Batteryspace.com has a selection of chargers though I don't know if any are adjustable or how long they take to ship. Also try All-Battery.com, they answered a question I had quickly and shipped fast.
If you do buy a charger that is set to 42V and can't be adjusted you could always wire a diode (or 2 depending on type) in-line to drop the voltage by about 0.7V.
-R
John in CR
100 TW
Only 2 packs and aggressive charging will quite likely mean a quick death for those packs.
StudEbiker
100 kW
It's on a low power controller. The Prima bike in my sig. I think I checked it on my watt meter and it's drawing about 15 amps. I don't know what the LVC is though. The bike originally had 5ah of SLA @ 36v, it will now have 4.4ah of LiMn...seems reasonable to me, but maybe I'll just go with one of the Bosch chargers it seems lie a good price and can get here quick.
Two questions:
I tried that live.com route of getting cheap batteries, it says 0 results. I can't believe you could get these for under $60 anywhere. I was able to get 2 for $135 shipped, with 'best offer' on ebay, that's the lowest I've seen.
How are you guys charging these? Do you connect just the pos and neg? Is that middle tab on them and the charger suppose to be connected? It didn't recognize the batteries with just the pos and neg hooked up.
Anyone build an interface so that you can easily slide them on to your bike?
I have my 3 wired up and it rides great, I just need to be able to charge them - 3 at once since they are all taped together.
(Trying to read this whole thread, 9 pages done so far).
I tried that live.com route of getting cheap batteries, it says 0 results. I can't believe you could get these for under $60 anywhere. I was able to get 2 for $135 shipped, with 'best offer' on ebay, that's the lowest I've seen.
How are you guys charging these? Do you connect just the pos and neg? Is that middle tab on them and the charger suppose to be connected? It didn't recognize the batteries with just the pos and neg hooked up.
Anyone build an interface so that you can easily slide them on to your bike?
I have my 3 wired up and it rides great, I just need to be able to charge them - 3 at once since they are all taped together.
(Trying to read this whole thread, 9 pages done so far).
ambroseliao
100 kW
I have them 6P for 37V 13.2AH. I just use a Tenergy 37V LiFePO4 charger which (when available) can be bought here:
http://www.all-battery.com/chargersforlifepo4batteryandpack.aspx
They often go on sale. The batteries are self balancing so no BMS is needed. You can also assemble your own packs from salvaged cells from Doctorbass here.
I'm waiting for my 72V 35A controller from Lyen in order to go to 72V on my TF bike.
Ambrose
http://www.all-battery.com/chargersforlifepo4batteryandpack.aspx
They often go on sale. The batteries are self balancing so no BMS is needed. You can also assemble your own packs from salvaged cells from Doctorbass here.
I'm waiting for my 72V 35A controller from Lyen in order to go to 72V on my TF bike.
Ambrose
John in CR
100 TW
veloman said:
Yeah, but you can get 20c Lipo for $405/kwh now. Apparently those Bosch packs were some old stock with quite a bit of warehouse time before the got liquidated on Ebay. FWIW the was someone in the for sale section selling the European version of Fatpacks, which have a bit higher capacity for $35/ea, and a bunch of used Dewalt 36s for even less. Doc has come down of his used Makita packs. Cellman is selling the top of the line A123's in 15 and 20ah for $.75/wh, and Thunkersky's can be had in the low $.30's/wh. Yes prices have come down, and we can certainly expect more.
John
I don't have a voltmeter or watt meter, so I don't know for sure, but it seems like the batteries lose a few volts after sitting overnight (after being fully charged). Is that normal?
Like, if I charge them, then let them sit for a few hours, then try charging again, they will charge for 5 min or so if I were to plug them back in.
But anyway, here is my final (for now) setup. 3 packs in parallel, completely intact. Very simple easy design. Takes 90 min to recharge after 11 miles or so. (450w motor).
First pic was before i removed the extra middle slot wires, you only need to connect one WITH electrical tape on the side that contacts the plastic side of the middle tab on the charger. That is critical, it won't work otherwise.
$250 for 36v 6ah 8lb battery and charger
Like, if I charge them, then let them sit for a few hours, then try charging again, they will charge for 5 min or so if I were to plug them back in.
But anyway, here is my final (for now) setup. 3 packs in parallel, completely intact. Very simple easy design. Takes 90 min to recharge after 11 miles or so. (450w motor).
First pic was before i removed the extra middle slot wires, you only need to connect one WITH electrical tape on the side that contacts the plastic side of the middle tab on the charger. That is critical, it won't work otherwise.
$250 for 36v 6ah 8lb battery and charger
Russell
1 MW
The LiMn Fatpacks should lose next to nothing overnight or over a month for that matter, mine didn't.
-R
-R
docnjoj
1 GW
I agree with Russell. I have 4 of the "old stock" and even when modified heavily (18v at 16 ah) they hold their charge very well.
otherDoc
otherDoc
Do these packs need ventilation during discharge and recharge?
I've felt them after a full ride and after charging and they never gain any noticable heat. (What warmth I felt was most likely from the sun on the transparant plastic case. I do have only a 450w motor drawing from them though.
I notice when charging, I think the charger gives off a scent. I hope that's not bad to breath in.
I've felt them after a full ride and after charging and they never gain any noticable heat. (What warmth I felt was most likely from the sun on the transparant plastic case. I do have only a 450w motor drawing from them though.
I notice when charging, I think the charger gives off a scent. I hope that's not bad to breath in.
icecube57
10 MW
They should loose any voltage. Ive had some loose like 0.01v over a two week period. They do heat up. When you start getting near full DOD. Or you start spankin that pack to hard. But your configuration with 3 in parallel should do 45 continuous without heating up and 90A peak.
Briankissel
1 mW
Both of my Bosch chargers go up to 41.2V, is it a different revision? Dunno. It does this when charging a single BAT832 or 5 in paralle, no difference except charge time of corse. Any one else experence this? My OTC multimeter is accurate as I've used flukes to compare with identical results. Even used my old Simson 260 (points to anyone who owns this meter)
BK
BK
ambroseliao
100 kW
Hey BK,
Are you using a Bosch Fat Pack 36V charger to charge your BFP bricks? Did you keep the bricks stock or did you remove the BMS? I need a 36V LiFePO4 charger for my BFP packs which are stripped of the BMS.
I blew up my Tenergy 36V charger and need a replacement! Getting a BFP 36V charger sounds like a good way to do it. I don't need a high current model, slow and steady is good.
Thanks,
Ambrose
Are you using a Bosch Fat Pack 36V charger to charge your BFP bricks? Did you keep the bricks stock or did you remove the BMS? I need a 36V LiFePO4 charger for my BFP packs which are stripped of the BMS.
I blew up my Tenergy 36V charger and need a replacement! Getting a BFP 36V charger sounds like a good way to do it. I don't need a high current model, slow and steady is good.
Thanks,
Ambrose
docnjoj
1 GW
The Fatpack chargers put out about 4 amps so are fairly fast charging. I have 2 more Fatpacks coming (unfortunately at the higher price of 75 bucks each) and I am going to ditch my Ping and run 8ah at 54 volts. There will be 4 packs at 36 V and 2 of my 18 volt rebuilds. This will look a bit better and save about 15 lbs. Pictures soon. I use a Ping charger reset to about 62 volts to charge and will lower it a bit when I go to the 15 s systems. I remove the circuit boards from my packs. I could use my 2 Bosch chargers and charge the 2 18 volts as a 36 volt but it is simpler to just use the Ping charger.
otherDoc
otherDoc
Briankissel
1 mW
Ambrose,
yes I use the stock Bosch charger. All packs are striped down and no problem charging, just use one BMS on the charger. Plug the charger in after you hook up your packs and expect a small spark on the last battery connection.
BK
yes I use the stock Bosch charger. All packs are striped down and no problem charging, just use one BMS on the charger. Plug the charger in after you hook up your packs and expect a small spark on the last battery connection.
BK
John in CR
100 TW
COMING SOON:
As I get a couple of bikes road ready in before the end of this month I'll take down my daily rider for it's first time ever maintenance other than fooling with brakes. This is the same bike Luke was on when he it got hit by the rouge Pacific wave as the tide turned when he visited in late Feb. Other than a balance check to be sure I wasn't installing packs with any defects from the factory when I had these packs opened up when this thread started in Nov '08, I don't think I've ever checked individual pair voltages. For over a year of the time since I've had these packs in daily use, often including multiple cycles. Typical cycles are less than 50% DOD, and my 2 chargers in series cuts off at 80.7v, so the usage and charging has been conservative.
I did fully discharge the pack once when Luke was here, which seemed to throw the 5p2s fatpacks, which are individually 2p10s, out of balance. I didn't check balance, but immediately afterward the pack seemed to drop in voltage quicker, and rapidly get to top of charge once above 79v. I ran the pack conservatively for about a couple of weeks by using my timer to cut the charging off in the neighborhood of 79v, and the pack seems to have recovered. I base this on the premise that I've noted that the last 1v of charge (79.7-80.7v) takes considerable time. When you're out of balance, that last volt occurs rapidly because some of the cells are already full so their voltages increase quickly at the top of charge.
Note that the only instrumentation on this bike is a bike speedometer. All I do is check overall voltage of the pack with a multimeter a few times a week before connecting the charger, though I did check more often and during charges several times after that out of balance condition 2.5 months ago. Oh, I also feel the outside of my pack occasionally after use just to be sure parts of it aren't running warm, which would indicate a problem.
I know I get verbose, but the above should be of interest to anyone wanting to gain a feel for what is going on with their packs without balancing or detailed instrumentation, which can introduce more points of failure in the system. The reason I bring it up now is that as part of my maintenance, call it a 10k mile tune-up, I'm going to measure the packs down to the cell level when I change the physical arrangement. It should be pretty good info regarding VT Konions, and how they don't require BMS's. I'll go ahead and do a low power capacity test too.
It should prove interesting regarding Bosch packs, duct tape as a batt-packing material, and my alignment (which minimizes space and weight, while supporting the individual pack structure). Plus I'll take pics to replace those early in the thread which were lost due to a server crash before I knew how to post pics hosted directly in the forum.
John
As I get a couple of bikes road ready in before the end of this month I'll take down my daily rider for it's first time ever maintenance other than fooling with brakes. This is the same bike Luke was on when he it got hit by the rouge Pacific wave as the tide turned when he visited in late Feb. Other than a balance check to be sure I wasn't installing packs with any defects from the factory when I had these packs opened up when this thread started in Nov '08, I don't think I've ever checked individual pair voltages. For over a year of the time since I've had these packs in daily use, often including multiple cycles. Typical cycles are less than 50% DOD, and my 2 chargers in series cuts off at 80.7v, so the usage and charging has been conservative.
I did fully discharge the pack once when Luke was here, which seemed to throw the 5p2s fatpacks, which are individually 2p10s, out of balance. I didn't check balance, but immediately afterward the pack seemed to drop in voltage quicker, and rapidly get to top of charge once above 79v. I ran the pack conservatively for about a couple of weeks by using my timer to cut the charging off in the neighborhood of 79v, and the pack seems to have recovered. I base this on the premise that I've noted that the last 1v of charge (79.7-80.7v) takes considerable time. When you're out of balance, that last volt occurs rapidly because some of the cells are already full so their voltages increase quickly at the top of charge.
Note that the only instrumentation on this bike is a bike speedometer. All I do is check overall voltage of the pack with a multimeter a few times a week before connecting the charger, though I did check more often and during charges several times after that out of balance condition 2.5 months ago. Oh, I also feel the outside of my pack occasionally after use just to be sure parts of it aren't running warm, which would indicate a problem.
I know I get verbose, but the above should be of interest to anyone wanting to gain a feel for what is going on with their packs without balancing or detailed instrumentation, which can introduce more points of failure in the system. The reason I bring it up now is that as part of my maintenance, call it a 10k mile tune-up, I'm going to measure the packs down to the cell level when I change the physical arrangement. It should be pretty good info regarding VT Konions, and how they don't require BMS's. I'll go ahead and do a low power capacity test too.
It should prove interesting regarding Bosch packs, duct tape as a batt-packing material, and my alignment (which minimizes space and weight, while supporting the individual pack structure). Plus I'll take pics to replace those early in the thread which were lost due to a server crash before I knew how to post pics hosted directly in the forum.
John
docnjoj
1 GW
That is great news, John. I'm assuming you are running 72 volts or is it higher? I am looking forward to your results as I too am committed to the same cells. I am running 15S and use a charger set about 62-3 volts. Seems to work fine. My total Konion pack should be up this weekend.
otherdoc
otherdoc
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