Bosch Motorsports e-GoKart Powertrain Young Star

[Ciclon]

Did several searches and couldn't find any threads on this. But I am miserable at searches so this might have been posted before.

Already about 3 years old. There is a large discrepancy between early articles and the actual specs on the Bosch Motorsports catalogue.

Press releases:

https://newatlas.com/bosch-e-go-kart-concept/43537/
https://mashable.com/2016/05/23/bosch-e-kart/

They mostly state:
48V system
2 motors totaling 20 Kw and 300 NM torque

Bosch Motorsports website

48V system
50 NM max torque per motor (stated controller is scalable to 2 motors so 100NM in total)

I suppose they downrated it for serial production.

They look like plain alternators. But Bosch calls them "5 phase claw tooth motors" The complete powertrain system costs about 8'700 EUR. Does come with almost everything you would need such as controller, 2x 2.4 KWH Li-ion battery packs, Dc/Dc converter, harness and moar. Seems expensive at first sight but when you figure all that is needed to make a complete system like this one may be its not excessive.

https://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/downloads/Raceparts/Resources/pdf/Operation%20Manual_76253963_e-GoKart_Powertrain_Young_Star.pdf

https://youtu.be/QJsdO-eMjEQ

 

[amberwolf]

Interesting; I would guess that they developed an altermotor system for someone's hybrid car design (maybe like the car this system came from https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=85514 or like the one in your thread ) that then didn't make it to production...but Bosch had already made the altermotors, so they used them for this rather than scrapping them.

 

[Ciclon]

Yes. Very similar to the GM e-assist.
If you read one of the articles linked above I think it was the other way around. Bosch created their mild hybrid version for motorsports applications and then planned to sell it to automakers for what they call something like a 15% reduction in fuel consumption which is in line with what GM achieved. If I had to guess, since that was about 3 years ago, they dropped the project for mass production since it would appear complete electrification will be the way forward and ICE's / hybrids will be less and less.

I do think the system has potential in Motorsports but not at this price point.

The modular KERS system they were developing had a very impressive 60KW motor weighing 4 to 8 KG. I think this also died off but not sure. It would also have been much more difficult to implement

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/11/bosch-developin.html

We'll see if any of their current offerings make it. They have an "Electrical power-pack P4 module for 48 V hybrid solutions". An "electric drive module" and "e-axle" . Motors look all very similar. The P4 module could be interesting for DIY projects if it ever makes it to production. On paper it looks incredible, Up to 1500 NM / 1100 ft. lbs of torque out of a 48V system.

https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/products-and-services/passenger-cars-and-light-commercial-vehicles/powertrain-systems/hybrid-solutions-48-v-systems/48-v-electrical-power-pack-p4-module/

 

[Hillhater]

From that Bosch gokart article.....

When it goes into production next year, the road-going version of this system, known as the Boost Recuperation System (BRS), will provide an extra 15 kW (20 hp) and 150 Nm (110 lb.ft) to compact petrol-powered cars during acceleration. According to its creators, the extra power is backed up by a 15 percent drop in fuel use and CO2 emissions.

Most of the EU car manufacturers..Ford, GM, VW, Merc, Audi, etc etc , have posted plans to intoduce “Mild Hybrid” systems on various models using 48v “Altermotor” or integrated motors, in order to meed emmission requirements.
Many of these were intending to use a Continental developed system, but i am sure other electrical companies like Bosch, etc have pitched systems for these.
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09/20150904-bosch48.htmlb
And..

The eTSI-badged mild-hybrid engines use a 48V belt starter/generator linked to a 48V battery and mounted directly to a seven-speed direct-shift gearbox (DSG). VW says that the eTSI units, offered with 109bhp, 129bhp and 148bhp outputs, reduce fuel consumption by around 10% by allowing for engine-off coasting, and increase acceleration due to electric boosting.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2020-volkswagen-golf-pictures-performance-on-sale-date

 

[j bjork]

Yes, it is nothing new. It has been on most Audi cars for the last few years. Not sure if it is Bosch or another manufacturer though. They use 48v systems on bigger engines (v6 etc.) and 12v on smaller (4 cyl)

 

[Hillhater]

Back to the original subject of the Bosch EKart...
..from the info link you get this b0110cks..

BRS can generate electricity while slowing the kart by spinning the motors backward. This makes sense, if you think about it. When the motors spin forward, expending electricity from the onboard batteries, the kart accelerates. When they spin backward, they generate electricity that is fed back to the batteries while also slowing the e-kart.

But apart from that rubbish, rhey missed a few fundamentals..
A, E karts ( full racing ones, not the rental type) have been around for 25++ years, an international Ekart championship was running back in the ‘90’s, even being recharged using Solar !
B, The big flaw with ekarts is weight of batteries....which destroys the basic concept of a kart
A fully ready to run ice kart can weigh under 70kg....whilst an ekart needs almost that much weight just in batteries.
C...that extra weight brings added complications, such as the need for 4wheel brakes and stronger chassis components.
D.... all that means extra complication and costs which makes it un available to entry level karters.
Which is why they have never become main stream .

 

[ShadowNightmares]

Hello to everyone in this thread.

Did several searches and couldn't find any threads on this. But I am miserable at searches so this might have been posted before.

They look like plain alternators. But Bosch calls them "5 phase claw tooth motors" The complete powertrain system costs about 8'700 EUR. Does come with almost everything you would need such as controller, 2x 2.4 KWH Li-ion battery packs, Dc/Dc converter, harness and moar.

I didn't posted about this BOSCH project here, but in various FB groups i did, to try and have some people to talk about it.
I already tried to talk with some of their distributors in April 2020, and one of them said that the cost of one kit was 6833€ at that time.

Interesting; I would guess that they developed an altermotor system for someone's hybrid car design (maybe like the car this system came from https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=85514 or like the one in your thread ) that then didn't make it to production...but Bosch had already made the altermotors, so they used them for this rather than scrapping them.

Yes, indeed is an altermotor, but it seems to be closer to the Gen1 GM BAS that i made a thread here ( https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105997 ) than the 115V AC Induction-based eAssist (also known as Gen2 GM BAS).

Yes. Very similar to the GM e-assist.
I do think the system has potential in Motorsports but not at this price point.

Yes, at almost 7k euros the complete kit with one motor and one battery pack, its expensive, and basically a premium price (like on iPhones and Apple products), there are no other adjectives to express it.

But apart from that rubbish, rhey missed a few fundamentals..
A, E karts ( full racing ones, not the rental type) have been around for 25++ years, an international Ekart championship was running back in the ‘90’s, even being recharged using Solar !

B, The big flaw with ekarts is weight of batteries....which destroys the basic concept of a kart
A fully ready to run ice kart can weigh under 70kg....whilst an ekart needs almost that much weight just in batteries.

While racing karts may be not exactly the sweet spot for this idea (not the product), maybe with some refinement this conect can be well used for Rental karts (swap batteries, check the motor, limit speed/acceleration for beginners and more), and for rental karts the excess weight won't be that much of a problem, i presume.

 

[Hillhater]

While racing karts may be not exactly the sweet spot for this idea (not the product), maybe with some refinement this conect can be well used for Rental karts (swap batteries, check the motor, limit speed/acceleration for beginners and more), and for rental karts the excess weight won't be that much of a problem, i presume.

Electric Rental kat systems have been in use for many years (20 ?) in order to meed regulations for nois and HSE (emissions etc) legislation,..especially for the “indoor” rental set ups.
Rental karts do not need or want 10+kW, ...generally they are <5kW ices.
But the additional cost of karts batteries, chargers, and expertise required , is reflected in higher consumer costs......which consequently reduces customer demand and accessability to the lower incom levels of youth society.

 

[ShadowNightmares]

Electric Rental kat systems have been in use for many years (20 ?) in order to meed regulations for nois and HSE (emissions etc) legislation,..especially for the “indoor” rental set ups.
Rental karts do not need or want 10+kW, ...generally they are <5kW ices.
But the additional cost of karts batteries, chargers, and expertise required , is reflected in higher consumer costs......which consequently reduces customer demand and accessability to the lower incom levels of youth society.

Well, sorry then, i'm not that well informed in those things. I just know that in my country, electric rental go-karts only exists in one track, more than 800km/497mi from me, and no electric karts are ready to buy around here, just the "hoverboard"-based ones.

And, for the last part, i need to agree in part, because even ICE go karts are expensive here (most people get motorcycle engines and build offroad karts from junkyard parts because of that, only people with a "bit" more money to spend that can go regularly to indoor karts or to race in tracks)

 

[Hillhater]

Yes , as with all EVs, there are three main factors that prevent them being more common..
Cost..
Complexity...
Weight...
That even applies to Ebikes !