BRAKES making them better ????

[justlooking]

im wondering if its possible to get better brake linings for my bike . i have disk brakes that are cable operated, but they are sluggish , taking in my weight of 2o stone and the bike/battery/motor ect thats a lot of weight to slow down ,, and at 27mph it takes forever .. if it was a car it would fail its MOT lol .. yes thay are that bad ..

any advise welcome ,,, apart from going to the jym lol

 

[el_walto]

Replace the small cable discs with larger hydraulic discs is pretty much what anyone is going to suggest.

Or just buy some better cable brakes.

 

[Chalo]

NO do not waste your time and money with unnecessary hydraulic bull puckey. Just don't. It's a bicycle, not an earth mover. If you use that crap, you'll be basically helpless to troubleshoot or service them, if you are like most owners of such brakes.

If you only want to improve the performance of the brakes you've got, make sure they are functioning as designed. Degrease the rotors with strong solvent. Deglaze them with Scotchbrite or extra fine sandpaper if necessary.

Take out the pads and carefully scuff them on medium sandpaper on a very flat surface with a figure-eight motion, taking care not to round off their faces or edges. If they seem contaminated with oil, replace them. Fully metallic replacement pads are best-- hugely better than so-called "organic" or "fiber" pads.

Make sure your cable is in good shape, routed smoothly, lubricated as necessary and free of corrosion. You don't want to waste any lever effort squishing squiggly housing or fighting against friction in the cable.

Adjust the pads to run as close as possible to the rotors without making contact as the wheel spins. That way you won't run out of lever travel before reaching full braking power. Make sure your levers were intended to pull the brakes that are on your bike. Most mechanical discs use V-brake type levers, which pull a longer stroke of cable than levers intended for caliper or cantilever brakes.

If your current brakes are horrible weak OEM discs without upgraded replacement pads available, then get rid of them and use different brakes:

If your frame and fork and rims can accept V-brakes, get some decent inexpensive ones like Shimano Deore and set them up right. Switch out the pads for Kool Stops and add booster arches if you want to go whole hog. This is the least expensive way to get very strong, consistent, reliable stopping power.

If your bike will only accept discs for whatever reason, Avid BB7 discs with 200mm rotors are best among cable actuated brakes. They are powerful, easy to set up, and nicely field-serviceable and adjustable. They come with sintered metal pads as standard.

 

[bowlofsalad]

I am not entirely sure what you mean, is the cable physically sticking? If so, that'd be a serious problem and not one you should ride with. There are options for brake cables. Teflon line tubing is generally considered good stuff, but you could also add some kind of a lubricant to the cable and tube, probably a dry lube would be ideal.

 

[Chalo]

I am not entirely sure what you mean, is the cable physically sticking?

By "linings" I think the OP means disc brake pads.

 

[mateusleo]

My mechanical disc brakes suck too. Once i bought used shimano hydraulic disc brakes from e-bay and they arrived in perfect conditions, but they didn't fit between the disc and the motor, so i had to sell them. I've seen a cheap option for those who have problems with mechanical disc brakes. those are called semi-hydraulic, it seems a good choice since they are cheap enought to throw away if you dislike them. I didn't buy them because the shipping to Brazil is too expensive, but its cheap to the US and probably to UK too. Here is the e-bay link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROMAX-FRON...380679282436?pt=US_Brakes&hash=item58a240df04. Some people told me that the hydro-lock might be a problem since the brake has all its fluid concentrated where the heat is generated, but it was a screw where you can adjust the pressure, so that problem can be solved when you feel close to get hydro-locked. Those breakes are mechanical activated and have a hydraulic piston that pushes the pads, it may bring the better or the worst from both sistems, i haven't tested them but i'd like to. Unafortunately the shippinf is too expensive for me.

 

[Anthony King]

There's some good advice above. Your calipers may not be very good, or even worse than that, and increasing the rotor size helps. I also endorse BB7's. The ability on BB7's to adjust the pad position on both sides of the caliper makes setup much easier.

There's one thing I haven't seen mentioned that matters quite a bit.

Cable actuated disc brakes should use special cable housing that won't compress. Very often regular brake housing is used with cable actuated disc brakes and the result is a mushy lever and underwhelming brake performance.

The spiral lined housing used with rim brakes compresses a great deal under heavy pressure. This isn't a killer with rim brakes because rim brakes are like huge rotors and require much less pressure to stop than a 160 or 180mm rotor.

"Pressure" might not be the exact term here. I'm a bicycle mechanic not an engineer. On a 26" bike the rim is effectively a ~555mm rotor (depending where exactly the pads are positioned on the rim sidewall). The force needed to stop the wheel is much less than that needed to stop a disc rotor which is 160-200ish mm. Using the same housing for each means that the greater cable pull needed on the disc brake caliper compresses the rim brake housing. After a certain point you pull on the brake lever with more force but the force isn't transferred to the caliper. You just continues to squish the housing, making it shorter without increasing braking power.

Housing for rim brakes is lined with square metal stock formed in a spiral. Compressionless housing is reinforced with steel strands that run the length on the housing just like derailleur housing, except the diameter of the steel strands is larger. I'm not in my shop right now but if you're not sure what type of housing you have I can take some pictures tomorrow.

There are several brands of compressionless housing. I stock Jagwire Ripcord but there are likely others that work just as well.

 

[biohazardman]

I have the old Hayes MX4 mechanical calipers stock on my bike but have upgraded the rotors to some inexpensive 203mm units. These are entry level disk brakes and only adjust from one side. Total weight of the bike including myself is 250+ lbs and the brakes will lock up both 195 tires and put me over the bars at any speed. I normally ride in the 20-30mph range so stops need to be rather abrupt now and then. I have been up on the front tire more than once so can attest to the stopping power of this set up. I also have the good quality Pro mountain cable kits from Jagwire installed. No mushy feel just good solid and consistent braking. With 10K on the bike I have replaced the pads once or twice and clean the rotors every month or so. The Avid BB7s are a step up from what I can see and both sides are adjustable by hand which would make maintenance much easier. Remember your life depends just as much on the quality of the components and the maintenance done on your bike as it does on your riding skills.

 

[Drunkskunk]

im wondering if its possible to get better brake linings for my bike . i have disk brakes that are cable operated, but they are sluggish , taking in my weight of 2o stone and the bike/battery/motor ect thats a lot of weight to slow down ,, and at 27mph it takes forever .. if it was a car it would fail its MOT lol .. yes thay are that bad ..

any advise welcome ,,, apart from going to the jym lol

It will help to know what brand and model of brakes you have.

If your brakes can lock up the wheels, then they are capable of the quickest possible stopping distance. Your tires are what actually does the stopping, your brakes are just a way to dump the kinetic energy off as heat.

If your brakes are spongy and sticking, it may be an issue with the setup on the brakes, or just marginal quality brakes that were never meant to be stopping 300lbs+ from nearly 30mph. But if the brakes are fine, it may be a tire issue. At higher speeds and weight, you need better tires.

 

[Supertux1]

I too recommend the Avid BB7, I have a pair on my bike in the signature. Almost 600 miles on them, I took the pads out last week and they're still good.

Will lock up both wheels when I want to and tested this on a gravel trail a few days ago.

For the MAC motor, you need spacers and you'll have to grind down the inner pad adjustment wheel just a bit, but you can still adjust it.

The cable will eventually stretch on all cable pull mechanisms, but this is easy to fix even while riding with adjustment knobs etc... worst case you pull out your multitool and tighten the pull at the brake.

I have hydraulic brakes on my non-electric bike.

To service them you need the right fluid (not all fluids work together with all brakes) and a bleeding kit, just like you would on a car.
They are not field serviceable and adjusting them is a PITA and messy.

They will lock up the wheel with less effort (1 finger pull) and that's all they really do differently.

 

[mateusleo]

Will the avid BB7 fit between the motor and the disc, it seems too "fat"...

 

[Chalo]

Will the avid BB7 fit between the motor and the disc, it seems too "fat"...

That depends on the motor, disc diameter, wheel lacing pattern, and the axle spacing. Very few systems will be identical in that regard.

Almost all mechanical discs are similarly thick on the back side, because they have a pad adjustment mechanism there. Most opposed-piston hydraulics are even thicker. Single piston hydraulics and cable discs without fixed-pad adjustment can be thinner there.

The main thing that's different about the BB7 compared to other mechanical brakes, besides better overall quality and better pads, is that it has an adjuster knob for the front side pad. That makes periodic adjustment much simpler, and it makes it easier to use up the brake pads before running out of cable travel.

 

[justlooking]

thanks for all of the advice folks

the bike is just a cheap one ,, and the cables are the spiral type ..there is no glace on the disks. i have only done about 50 miles on the bike since new ,

i will sand the discs with fine paper and the faceing of the disk pads to see if that will help , failing that i will have to see about getting another type/make of discs and callipers ,

when i pull on the brakes ,, it feels as though, once you pull them so far , any more pressure on the levers make no difference , i was hopeing that it was just the matter of changing the pads to a different grade ,, but things are never as simple as we like them to be lol .

really though ,, i dont know if the fittings are all the same for different calipers and discs ?? so will i have to find ones that will fit my bike, or can i buy any bike kits and they will fit ??

 

[justlooking]

just wondering ,, is there any benefit to having alloy brake leavers compared to the plastic ones ?? ni just remembered that mine are plastic , and thinking that once they take x amount of pressure they will just flex after this point ?? where ,,, if im right ,, alloy levers will not flex and keep the increase in presser going to the brakes thus allowing more force in braking ??

 

[MadRhino]

Makes no sense to make custom liners, but various liners are available for your brakes and you should try a variety of them. Natural, Sintered, and Ceramic pads are available from many brands and they vary a lot in performance and life. Then, as previously said, your brakes must be in perfect working order and a larger rotor sure makes them better. Any good brake is working good when in perfect working order. The difference in performance is not that much between brands, yet it is well worth buying the best hydro brakes if you build a 50+ Mph bike that you will be riding in all weather conditions.

 

[Chalo]

just wondering ,, is there any benefit to having alloy brake leavers compared to the plastic ones ?? ni just remembered that mine are plastic , and thinking that once they take x amount of pressure they will just flex after this point ??

That's likely. If that's what they are doing, you'd probably be able to see the levers distorting with a hard pull. In any case, it's not expensive to try a different set of levers. If you do, then get the kind for V-brakes, with a bias towards longer blades.

The details about your bike suggest that you may never get strong braking out of its current brakes, but if you can find metallic pads that fit, try them.

 

[biohazardman]

You might want to replace the levers and cables first and then if that does not werq for you at least that much has been done and will likely be usable on any choices you make farther down the road.

 

[dogman dan]

FWIW, because of the smaller tire contact patch of a bike tire, just improving your brakes may not save you. Especially if you fix your brakes so you lock up that front tire first.

Learn to brake and steer at the same time, which requires braking without locking the front wheel. You can steer a locked rear wheel though. Your only chance is slowing and steering around that car.

At 27mph, when a car is popping into your path because he thinks you are going 10 mph, you won't stop in time, no matter how good your brakes are.

Do improve your brakes, mushy is no good for developing that feel you need to know when to grab, but not lock up that front wheel.

Of the cheap cable brakes, I have found tektro calipers tolerable. Some no names I bought on ebay not good at all.

 

[justlooking]

i have decided to change my brake levers first, just bought a Pair Coyote ATB Adult Alloy Cycle Bike Brake Levers.

as for the pads ,, whats your experience with alloy disc linings ?? i need to take the ones out of my bike to see what ones they are ,, just to make sure i get the right shaped ones ,

i see that they make them from
Carbon
Ceramic
Alloy
Aluminium
Resin

 

[Chalo]

as for the pads ,, whats your experience with alloy disc linings ?? i need to take the ones out of my bike to see what ones they are ,, just to make sure i get the right shaped ones ,

i see that they make them from
Carbon
Ceramic
Alloy
Aluminium
Resin

There are only three basic types of pads for most disc brakes, which marketing dorks will rampantly rename in the attempt to make their crap seem more specialer. Those are organic (aka resin, fiber, composite); semi-metallic (basically the same as organic but with metal powders mixed in), and fully metallic (as in, metal serves as the binder matrix). In the broadest sense, any of them can be called "ceramic", so that term tells you nothing. I'd be highly suspicious of anything called "carbon", too, since that's a favorite marketing term. "Alloy" just means a mixture of elemental metals, so you can take that to mean fully metallic unless some marketing jerk is stretching the definition to suit his purposes.

There are a number of metals used in metallic brake pads, mostly copper and copper alloys, but as far as I know aluminum is not one of them. It would tend to cake up on the rotor under high-friction conditions. They might mean aluminum oxide particles used as part of a formula. Or they might mean the backing plates, which are usually steel or copper.

Just get some fully metallic pads for your brakes if you can find them. The cheaper the brake, the less likely you are to have a choice of pads.

 

[amberwolf]

the bike is just a cheap one ,, and the cables are the spiral type ..there is no glace on the disks. i have only done about 50 miles on the bike since new

did they work better when new? If not, it could be adjustments or simply not being very good brakes (pads, or levers, or cables, or housings, or calipers themselves, or rotors, or a combination of the above).

I have tried a couple of the cheap Chinese brakes that are typical on cheap bicycles (BSOs as Chalo says), including YUS and Promax, and neither is worth the powder to blow them up. On my heavy CrazyBike2, when i had a regular 26" wheel on the front, I had disc and rim brakes, and the rim brakes worked better by far (and are all I have on there now). the rim brake will lock up the wheel and cause the bike to skid, if I slam it on, or I can modulate it anyway I like for slowing down normally. The disc brake (either brand, or another one I can't recall the name of) did a nice job of heating up the disc itself but it didn't do a lot to slow me down, and certainly wouldn't lock up the wheel. It was also difficult to keep them aligned, and I ended up with pad rub fairly often, squeaking or squealing after every few uses even when not engaged (because I had to adjust the pads very close to the rotor to get any real braking power, regardless of housing, cable, or lever used).


I'm sure if I had tried *good* disc brakes (both caliper and rotor) then they would actually have worked as intended, but the cheap ones didn't, for me.

 

[dogman dan]

That's how my no name ones act. Scouring the flea for half a bike with better ones for ten bucks all the time.

I keep meaning to put a better fork, and disk front brakes on my longtail, but the dual V brakes are actually working just fine, even when I have that 150 pound monster going 33 mph. I'm getting some squeal from the dirty rim on the front, but that's ok, it's like an alarm that keeps people realizing I'm there.

 

[justlooking]

ok , today i got my new levers and put them one the bike,
not much difference if at all any difference,
i have adjusted the brakes the best i can, but i think the angle of the cable pulling the lever on the calliber may be the reason, as they seem to be trying to pull the lever at a funny angle rather than the line of movement

also do some callipers have bigger pads than these for better stopping power, these are one inch dia and attached by magnets

#

 

[999zip999]

Keepo your chin up and look ahead and brakes arn't as important as knowing what's going on around you. Keep a heads up and know whats happening around you. Yes nice to have good brakes. Dosn't help if you don't have a sense of what's next to you.

 

[justlooking]

Keepo your chin up and look ahead and brakes arn't as important as knowing what's going on around you. Keep a heads up and know whats happening around you. Yes nice to have good brakes. Dosn't help if you don't have a sense of what's next to you.

good sense on the road is no good with out good brakes ,, you can not always see what is going to happen at the last minute, there are a lot of motorists out there that dont think of looking properly.
as for my brakes, i would not trust them going down a hill, they are not good in my opinion ,