breaking 35 mph?

[GCinDC]

You can hold 30mph, but you think an extra 5mph would make you feel safe in traffic?

in my case, yes. i rode 25-27 in a 35mph zone where cars regularly hit 40, but almost never 45 -- too much traffic, not long enough stretches, and police...

only after i could go 35 also did i feel confident taking and owning a lane. until then, always getting passed on the 35mph sections sucked...

so i think it all depends on the roads you ride. out in the dc burbs it would be a completely story...

35mph on a hardtail however was no fun at all.

after a year or so, i got my 40mph on a full suspension build (or two) and i've been there for another couple years. i've considered building a faster bike, but have decided against it.

going 40 is a major step, so get ready to spend for the proper bike components, otherwise it's NOT safe.

 

[John in CR]

You can hold 30mph, but you think an extra 5mph would make you feel safe in traffic? Think again. However fast you go, drivers will see a bike and immediately pass you, because that's their knee-jerk reaction. Go 50mph, and they'll burn past you at 60. You won't feel, or be, any safer. The faster you go, in fact, the less safe you'll be.

Get used to sharing the road. Get used to going slower than others would like to go. Wear your imaginary VW Microbus if it helps. Not everything on the road has to go at the same speed.

If you didn't have some understanding of "less is more", you wouldn't be on an electric bicycle. So use your understanding of "less is more" in this case.

Chalo

This reminds me of the little old lady who drives 10mph under the speed limit and those who stop on the entrance ramp of a highway waiting for a clear lane to pull onto the highway. They think they're safe drivers just like you think you're safe mixing in traffic at well below their speed.

Less is more riding on paths and bike lanes, and way less is more riding on sidewalks, but equal to or greater than is the only thing that's more out mixing with traffic. Sure greater speed comes with a greater penalty if you make a mistake but with focus that's really quite easy to avoid by riding smart and with focus, with a good build it can be significantly safer than a motorcycle....first by not have excessive speed just a throttle twist away, and second by being more nimble than any motorcycle can be.

I agree that in some locations it's simply not practical for an ebike build that matches traffic speeds. Texas and New Mexico come to mind where the generally wide open flat straight roads away from towns leads drivers to speeds in town that aren't realistic for us on ebikes. At the other end of the spectrum are extremely congested urban environments where even an unassisted pedal bike can readily exceed traffic speeds. Texas certainly isn't the center of the universe or even typical, and Austin isn't even typical for Texas, so stop trying to force your standards on everyone else, such as your "Prime Directive", that any ebike must first and foremost be a pedal bike and retain that identity thru the conversion. If the man wants to go 35, help him by applying your vast knowledge and experience with pedal bikes to recommend the right design to help him get there.

Instead, take your love of pedal bikes that come in such a broad variety of performance and forms, and apply that acceptance to ebikes. Don't look at a high power ebike as a motorcycle someone is trying to avoid paying taxes on. Look at is as one less person in a car. Live up to the Libertarian portion of the way you intentionally filled out that political survey, because when it comes to ebikes you display 100% authoritarian views. Do you really want to be "the Stalin of ebikes"?

John

 

[winkinatcha]

Hi John in CR

your above post struck a chord with my experiences.

I am riding a lot of different e-bike builds at the moment based on gm style hubmotor kits ranging from 250w 24v to 1500w 48v, in a speed range from 25 km/h to 50 km/h (16-30mph). I ride on a combination of dedicated cycle way, shared footpath and road.

I have also ridden road and trail ICE motorbikes for 30 years, most of that on tarmac in traffic.

ALL my e-bike experiences are in Melbourne Australia, ranging from outer suburban to inner central business district.

24km/h/16 mph builds I will mix it with inner CBD car traffic (owning a lane), for short bursts... where congestion means I can match the predominant car-based speed... Pretty much all other road circumstances on a 16mph machine and I am basically riding pure defensive when I am on the roads, with not enough speed to agressively match the traffic.

my favourite voltaged build is 36volts, top speed around 20mph spending a lot of time at around 350 watts though initially was at 800w... I pedal a lot so top speed rather than power is important here... At 20mph I can pick the places to own the road, from inner CBD to suburbs 15 miles out. but need to be cautious as I am getting around the top speed of better-than-average cyclist, IE faster than most car drivers will have experience and thus cars pulling out or turning across my path often (jump-the-gun) as they do not expect the speed I am doing. Running with a 20mph top motorised speed works well on shared cyclepaths and dedicated cycleways... during the peak bicycle commuter times, about a third of the cyclist cruise around 20mph... major traffic and slowing down doesn't feel like one is choking the bike either.

On the 48v builds, giving me the 30mph experience, I basically spent most of my time in traffic, as I found it less dangerous than high speeds on shared cycleways, and on the non-arterial roads, 50-60km/h is a workable in-traffic speed and the advantages of a bicycle in terms of curb hopping kick in as well.

At these speeds on something that looks more like a bicycle rather than a motorbike, Aggressiveness, high visibility and high defensiveness all come in to play, and I basically ride those builds as though I was on a fully fledged motorcycle, using both aggression and appropriate deference and politeness, mixing it with the road traffic.

Said another way, and coupled with the decades of on road Motorcycle experience, I agree that when mixing it in traffic in a controlled manner, being able to match and sometimes exceed the average speed of surrounding traffic is almost a fundamental pre-requisite, as one not only needs to be able to keep pace, but sometimes particularly when one is in that mental state of hyper awareness of what is going on around and in front gained over time from mixing it with traffic on a vulnerable vehicle, ACCELRATING and acheiving higher speeds than surrounding traffic can enable you to avoid situations that are unfolding in front (eg, someone decides to park, you can accelerate to above traffic speeds to cut into the lane beside, and avoid the slow moving object about to occur in front of you)

And said in yet another way...

"wot you said"

Joe

 

[andrew.box]

Hi, OP here.

So many thoughtful posts, this is turning into a really great discussion. After driving the car to work yesterday on the main road that I'll be taking if I can get a faster e-something, I think I have to be honest that max of 35 probably still would be problematic during rush hour, max of 40 or more would allow to really keep up or accelerate to avoid tricky situations (I've had several motorcycles and it's often true that having more power can help to avoid cars that you can tell are planning on doing something stupid). Speed limit is 35 but people drive 40-42 on average.

But there's no way I want to go that fast on a rigid frame bicycle, especially not one with crappy brakes! I'm leaning towards keeping this bike as-is and looking into doing a scooter or small motorcycle conversion eventually. Or at least a full-suspension bicycle build. It was mentioned that a downhill type MTB is a good choice, might keep an eye for one on CL in the area. Also, I'm seeing a lot of mid-drive conversions when you start looking at higher speeds and powers. That's something I don't know a lot about in terms of motor choices etc, but this is certainly the right place to do some reading and find out.

 

[yopappamon]

Many of us have built faster bikes on the Mongoose Blackcombe bike. It was around $300 at Walmart. Full suspension, steel rear dropouts, nice rigid frame. My cruising speed with a high sped Mac and Lyen controller at 48v is around 35 mph.

What 'T' mac motor are you using to get that speed may I ask? 6, 7, 8?

Kudos

Don't know the turns, I've always just heard it called the high speed Mac.

I got it from Lyen, but I think others sell it too.

 

[veloman]

I can tell you for sure that 35mph will keep you safer on MANY roads here in Austin than 30mph. A lot of drivers are content to stay behind you at 35mph if that's the speed they are going. You have to take the lane though, don't ride the gutter.

5mph is a big enough difference to be worth aiming for. Yes, some drivers will try to pass no matter how fast, but if you are going 35 in 35mph traffic, you're a lot better off.

With that said, I was doing 28-30 in a 35 yesterday on Barton Springs rd. Cars slowly passed in the other lane, it wasn't ideal, but it was a LOT better than going cyclist speeds like 20mph. A LOT better.


If you're riding 50mph roads, then yeah, 35 isn't going to be much better than 30.

 

[John in CR]

Longer wheelbase, lower seated riding position, good disc brakes front and rear, AND regen braking (not for the energy recovery which is a bonus, but to let regen do most of the work of braking so the mechanicals need far less maintenance and are always fresh and cool so they're ready for emergency stops). Get the bike right with a lower CG but more upright position for a better view of your surroundings, and I can guarantee that 35-40mph cruising can feel many times safer than a road bike feels at 25-30mph. Out there flowing seamlessly with traffic generally in the left half of the lane instead of the right where all those stationary dangers lie gives you both more visibility and better vision ahead, and it gives you a lot more room to maneuver so more routes of escape. If you're slower than traffic, you're a slower moving object that they have to avoid. When you're flowing with them, not only do you cross paths with far fewer cars, but whether they see you or not doesn't even matter most of the time. They're slow or stationary (relatively speaking) objects for me to avoid instead of vice versa, and I'd much rather rely on myself not to make a mistake than be forced rely on them.

Riding at these higher speeds does require absolute focus at all times and being extremely familiar with your roads. There's no la-te-da relaxed riding listening to your ipod at 35-40mph. I love the hyper-attention and focus required, because everything else is tuned out and I'm living only in the moment. It's definitely not for everyone.

John

 

[dogman dan]

For sure, you have it figured out how to build a stable bike for higher speed riding. Hauling ass on a wallmart genesis with one brake not working is way more foolish than going helmetless. If you can't ride a mile no hands, don't take that bike above 25 mph.

Having watched some of your vids though, I just have to think the drivers I deal with are NOT paying as much attention. That makes it sure that one will pop into your path once a week. Or even daily. My response has been finding routes that will be safer, rather that trying to keep up with traffic. There are about 6 streets in LC that I will ride on only to cross them. Two of those streets have wide bike lanes. So what, you still get right crossed three times a mile. Bottom line, you mostly see me riding where the speed limit is 25 mph for most of my ride.

I also love to ride with absolute focus, and built 8 miles of single track trail blocks from my house to do it on. Deviously twisty trail that puts me into that zen state where I seem to be floating above my bike watching myself ride. Same place I went to on ski's. So I get my nut there, and ride streets slower and more able to take the time to check out that jogger milf on the bike path.

 

[winkinatcha]

Haha! yeah flow-state and hyper-awareness is where it's at for me
Though even 3 decades of on-road motorcycle experience in all conditions, traffic and a huge range of steeds was not enough for me to avoid my last ICE accident, which strangely enough was at legal speeds, whilst riding a Harley Davidson in clear visibility... I forgot to account for one car treating a controlled intersection as uncontrolled (while another car was performing an illegal uturn in front of me...) option A, cruise speed and go behind illegal U turner, now blocking the road, or option B: go in front whilst accelerating... dang it, chose option A, which meant controlled intersection car and Joe on Harley trajectories met...

A breif experience of unassisted flight, an eternity sliding down the road hearing my harley grinding itself down on the tarmac behind me... first thing I thought glancing back at the bike was I didn't clean its underside very well... attempt to stand up failed due to busted knee leg and ankle, and busted hand made removing helmet difficult but managed it whilst having a bit of a lie down on the road (get that freakin thing off or the paramedics will insist in keeping it on til they can xray my head...... Young lass "in control" of the car that ran a stop sign was in hysterics... came running over, then bent down asking if I am alright... no brassier, loose t shirt... most painful thing of the whole episode was trying to drag my eyes away from an absolutely prime set of mammaries to assure the poor kid I was ok :lol:

Mmmmmmmmmmm

thanks for the opportunity to tell that totes off-topic story


Joe

 

[Punx0r]

Ouch!

 

[andrew.box]

Haha! yeah flow-state and hyper-awareness is where it's at for me
Though even 3 decades of on-road motorcycle experience in all conditions, traffic and a huge range of steeds was not enough for me to avoid my last ICE accident, which strangely enough was at legal speeds, whilst riding a Harley Davidson in clear visibility... I forgot to account for one car treating a controlled intersection as uncontrolled (while another car was performing an illegal uturn in front of me...) option A, cruise speed and go behind illegal U turner, now blocking the road, or option B: go in front whilst accelerating... dang it, chose option A, which meant controlled intersection car and Joe on Harley trajectories met...

A breif experience of unassisted flight, an eternity sliding down the road hearing my harley grinding itself down on the tarmac behind me... first thing I thought glancing back at the bike was I didn't clean its underside very well... attempt to stand up failed due to busted knee leg and ankle, and busted hand made removing helmet difficult but managed it whilst having a bit of a lie down on the road (get that freakin thing off or the paramedics will insist in keeping it on til they can xray my head...... Young lass "in control" of the car that ran a stop sign was in hysterics... came running over, then bent down asking if I am alright... no brassier, loose t shirt... most painful thing of the whole episode was trying to drag my eyes away from an absolutely prime set of mammaries to assure the poor kid I was ok :lol:

Mmmmmmmmmmm

thanks for the opportunity to tell that totes off-topic story


Joe

Hell of a story, sounds like a brutal wipe out. At least you got to see some boobs.

 

[jkbrigman]

Haha! yeah flow-state and hyper-awareness is where it's at for me
...
... no brassier, loose t shirt... most painful thing of the whole episode was trying to drag my eyes away from an absolutely prime set of mammaries to assure the poor kid I was ok :lol:
Mmmmmmmmmmm thanks for the opportunity to tell that totes off-topic story
Joe

That has got to be the best damned crash story I've ever read... 8) 8) 8)

 

[cal3thousand]

...
thanks for the opportunity to tell that totes off-topic story
...

Joe

Thanks for sharing it!

 

[andrew.box]

OP here. Decided what I'm going to do. I'm going to break down the current bike and do a 72V lipo setup on a KMX tadpole trike using a 20" 2805 rear wheel. Of course it won't have suspension, but 3 wheels and dual front disc brakes should be manageable at ~35-40 mph. I'll get a dorky flag for safety, to try and prevent being run over by SUVs, and continue my current practice of wearing an open face motorcycle helmet and gloves when I ride.

I'm going to keep the 25A controller and use it for now, don't think I want to deal with the potential for overheat using 40A. But I'll be selling my 2806 front wheel and motor if anyone's interested. I will be taking it off the bike tonight. I'll post a classified ad. It has ~550 miles on it and only rode in light drizzle once for a few minutes.

 

[Chalo]

Out of the frying pan and into the toilet.

If you keep your eyes open, you'll figure out why recumbents have never had their day, despite a really long opportunity to do so.

Chalo

 

[veloman]

Out of the frying pan and into the toilet.

If you keep your eyes open, you'll figure out why recumbents have never had their day, despite a really long opportunity to do so.

Chalo

I'm curious, why is that?

 

[Chalo]

Some of the shortcomings of 'bents as I have observed them:

Terrible handling, poor maneuverability, difficult to balance

Structural deficits from putting the rider where the frame should have bracing

Inability to put the body into a biomechanically efficient position

Inability to use arms and legs as suspension

Poor visibility

Bad hill climbing, difficult to walk/push if you have to bail out

Recumbent layout sacrifices everything else about the ride for the benefit of getting to sit in a chair (and the usually unfulfilled promise of better aerodynamics and higher speed). Most 'bent riders are quite a bit slower in practice than they would be on a normal bike. Those who are in fact faster on a 'bent suffer poor cooling and even worse handling qualities than slow 'bents offer.

I say skip the elaborations and just sit in a chair, if that's what's important to you. Bikes have had a long development; everything has been tried over and over, and what we have left is what works. The useless gimmicks we have now will pass away as soon as they are no longer novel selling points. See Shimano's disc brake of the 1970s or the Itera plastic bicycle of the '80s for examples. Unlike those things, recumbents never worked well enough to enter the mass market at all. They are the province of folks who think they know better than everyone who came before, but really just haven't done their research.

Chalo

 

[GCinDC]

reminds me of this gem AJ posted ages ago...
[youtube]8GWp2_-aogc[/youtube]

 

[Chalo]

I had a buddy some years ago who rode an Optima Hurricane (a medium-racy short wheelbase recumbent), along with trials bikes and other more normal rides. Because he was experienced with, and satisfied with, normal bikes, he was (unlike most 'bent riders) rather realistic about his inline wheelchair's shortcomings. When folks saw his 'bent, after a moment of freaking out they often asked, "can I ride it?"

His answer was this: "No. And it's not because I won't let you!"

That corresponds with my experience riding at length the more moderate and presumably easier Infinity and BikeE recumbents. I spent a long weekend using a BikeE as a "rental car" once, and I think BikeE owes me damages for that horrible ordeal.

Chalo

 

[winkinatcha]

...they often asked, "can I ride it?"

His answer was this: "No. And it's not because I won't let you!"

Chalo

Joe

 

[veloman]

I had a buddy some years ago who rode an Optima Hurricane (a medium-racy short wheelbase recumbent), along with trials bikes and other more normal rides. Because he was experienced with, and satisfied with, normal bikes, he was (unlike most 'bent riders) rather realistic about his inline wheelchair's shortcomings. When folks saw his 'bent, after a moment of freaking out they often asked, "can I ride it?"

His answer was this: "No. And it's not because I won't let you!"

That corresponds with my experience riding at length the more moderate and presumably easier Infinity and BikeE recumbents. I spent a long weekend using a BikeE as a "rental car" once, and I think BikeE owes me damages for that horrible ordeal.

Chalo

I had this thought after trying a mid racer off craigslist years ago. Then i went to Easy Street Recumbents and Mike taught me how to ride a Catrike Mushashi. Sure, it's not going to dodge traffic and hop sidewalks like a mtn bike, but it wasn't bad.

Most road riding is really tame when it comes to bike handling. There's no reason a recumbent is bad for general road riding, from a handling perspective.

 

[cal3thousand]

I had a buddy some years ago who rode an Optima Hurricane (a medium-racy short wheelbase recumbent), along with trials bikes and other more normal rides. Because he was experienced with, and satisfied with, normal bikes, he was (unlike most 'bent riders) rather realistic about his inline wheelchair's shortcomings. When folks saw his 'bent, after a moment of freaking out they often asked, "can I ride it?"

His answer was this: "No. And it's not because I won't let you!"

That corresponds with my experience riding at length the more moderate and presumably easier Infinity and BikeE recumbents. I spent a long weekend using a BikeE as a "rental car" once, and I think BikeE owes me damages for that horrible ordeal.

Chalo

I had this thought after trying a mid racer off craigslist years ago. Then i went to Easy Street Recumbents and Mike taught me how to ride a Catrike Mushashi. Sure, it's not going to dodge traffic and hop sidewalks like a mtn bike, but it wasn't bad.

Most road riding is really tame when it comes to bike handling. There's no reason a recumbent is bad for general road riding, from a handling perspective.

Recumbents have their place. They are just not for everyone. Recumbents, trikes, cruisers, hardtails, suspension bikes, etc all have a place for the same reason that cars differ from one another. Different jobs, different tools. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

 

[andrew.box]

Forgot about the upright/recumbent rivalry. My bad. Gonna get one anyways though. If it sucks it sucks, but I'm pretty sure it's gonna be awesome.

BTW, that video is hilarious.

 

[Chalo]

Rivalry?

That's a little like suggesting normal people have a rivalry with microcephalic people. There is no rivalry between something proven, refined and ubiquitous, and something ill-conceived, rare and failed. Recumbents are a curiosity, nothing more. They have had a long, long time to put up or shut up.

Recumbent trikes are at least as good as upright trikes, though. Upright trikes are horrible compared to regular bikes, but 'bent trikes are less treacherous than two-wheeled 'bents. Add one more wheel, a motor, suspension, a "fairing", air conditioning, and a stereo, and then you'll be onto something. Doh!

Chalo

 

[jkbrigman]

Rivalry?

That's a little like suggesting normal people have a rivalry with microcephalic people. There is no rivalry between something proven, refined and ubiquitous, and something ill-conceived, rare and failed. Recumbents are a curiosity, nothing more. They have had a long, long time to put up or shut up.

Recumbent trikes are at least as good as upright trikes, though. Upright trikes are horrible compared to regular bikes, but 'bent trikes are less treacherous than two-wheeled 'bents. Add one more wheel, a motor, suspension, a "fairing", air conditioning, and a stereo, and then you'll be onto something. Doh!

Chalo

Chalo, it's a "rivalry" in the minds of the Recumbent Police. I wish you'd been there to help me fend off the madding crowd. Near as I can tell, the attackers have no ebike build to their credit:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35076

I could have used some of that supa-badd talk in defense of my field-trialed, objectively determined conclusions against their off-topic opinions. What's left, I had to edit out my vitriol, I didn't want to corrupt the data with emotion. Stay tuned, tho. It's not over yet. You will ROFL.

JKB