Bringing back a Phylion lithium battery

[veloman]

I have this Tres Terra Europa ebike that had a 'dead' battery. In fact, it was at 17v. I've brought it back to 40v and it did move the bike a little, but the computer on the battery seem to shut it off when i pulled more than ~80watts.

I was thinking I could just remove all the computer and cutout stuff from the batter and wire it directly. Maybe the battery is still good enough? Or is this a bad idea that will likely lead to a dangerous battery? It held it's voltage overnight perfectly, at 38.8volts. I'm not using the proper charger for it, and it's charging.

Well, I just had it on for 4 minutes, then it said "charged". I disconnected and it was at 39.4volts (not the ~42 it should be at). I turned the charger off, reconnected and now it's charging again. Another 4 minutes and it shows "charged", turned off and on and is charging again. Now off after a minute.

This is a completely custom battery made in China by Phylion, and not something I'm going to take apart. The cells are 3.7v 10ah, 10 of them, square metal encased. But maybe I can bypase all the programming wires and see it performs acceptably?

This 400w Heinzman motor is quite loud.

Should I just send this battery to the recycling plant and get some replacement?

 

[Ypedal]

does the pack / cells look like this :

http://www.ypedal.com/ezee.htm

..

Either way, there is either one or more cells in the pack that are shot and causing the BMS to trip over and under-voltage, the only way to know for sure is to open it up and probe each cell to confirm the voltage of all 10 cells while in operation.. and report back.

 

[neptronix]

Perhaps it has been damaged and lost a lot of it's capacity. OR it is just sagging like crazy and dropping voltage to the point of hitting the LVC when you touch the throttle.

A turnigy watt meter would be useful here.

 

[veloman]

There must be a weak cell, and there is no way I'm replacing it. I guess I was just hoping that the battery would come back to near full life.....lol.

I will just get a replacement battery, probably lead acid since the bike already weighs 65lbs, weight doesn't really matter. And if I want to sell it, I'm not selling it with lipo, or with an expensive battery.

 

[Ypedal]

dont' throw that one out tho.. the BMS inside can likely be salvaged !!

 

[veloman]

dont' throw that one out tho.. the BMS inside can likely be salvaged !!

It is very nice looking and clean in that battery case. In fact, the case itself is nice. Someone shoot me an offer and I'll think about selling it. (will upload a pic soon)

 

[neptronix]

3.7v cells?
Ha, maybe you could stick some lipo in there and sell it on the forums.
Or maybe some li-mn if you can find it at a good price.

You'll have to buy a SLA charger and that will increase your total cost. Funk dat.

 

[veloman]

True, but how much will a 37v 9+ah lithium battery cost me? Something that doesn't require assembly, has to be ready made.

This bike would not benefit from lipo like a homemade ebike would, it's so damn heavy, it's essentially a moped at 65lbs without any battery, slow as heck to pedal. I really don't plan to keep it for myself, will end up selling it and I want to minimize my investment while still selling a working complete ebike. I have doubts I could sell it for more than $300 here in town, even with a new lithium battery, and shipping is out of the question.

 

[neptronix]

If you want it assembled, it's gonna cost ya..
And if you go cheap, you end up with something that has like a 1 month lifespan on the BMS ( IF THAT )

li-mn bare cells + do it yourself would be the only way to profit.
Where would you mount lead acid? SLA is going to take a lot more space.

IMHO you should sell it as is if you are not willing to solder together a pack etc. You will most likely lose money putting new batteries in it, and some people like myself will pick up things like this as a project if it's in the low $100 range.

 

[zap]

veloman you're still in CT?
Ever make it down to FL or know someone there? This guy might sell you one of his extra batteries?
http://fortmyers.craigslist.org/lee/bik/2350949093.html

 

[skeetab5780]

i had that same bike and battery/charger the cells are super weak even though there 10ah like 5amp max draw... and the bms is weird sorta has a single cell bms attached to every cell and one central hub where there all coonected to the charger. I removed the bms from the cells and use the cells around the house to power a bunch of little gadgets.

1 cell is used for powering some creative portable speakers that used to run on 4 AAA's

and the other nine i have configured in a 3P3S 11.1v pack and got a cheap 12.6v charger off of ebay for it. works great

this is after i tried numerous times to get them to power an ebike..brushless or brushed i only got about 2 miles out of the pack with pedaling...even though it would charge to 41v which is the very nice chargers output voltage.

 

[veloman]

I paid $100 for it, and the guy said he got about 20 miles range on it. It's crap IMO. Heavy, noisy, and it sounds like no performance. My female roommates thought it looked nice though, lol. $1400 bike..... :lol:


SLA will easily mount on the rear rack in a plastic case. $75 if I do 12ah, about 100 or so if I do 17ah. The 12ah should be okay, for about 12-15miles with light assist I would say. I used 36v 12ah sla on my bike last year and got 17 miles on that 450w motor.

 

[skeetab5780]

ya i got my tres terra brand new off ebay (defective) for 399 USD the battery came shipped in a seperate box that came with the charger as well. I would extremely suggest not to use SLA even if your hurting for money theres a few ways you can go with lithium where it wont cost you an arm and a leg. You can find used or cheap tool packs bosch Bat836 and dewalt DC9360. 2 bosch packs will give you 36v 4ah and that will be equivalent to 6 or 7 AH of SLA. You can also buy a few lipo packs off ebay, get 2 for around 100 bucks and a if you use 2 x 5s (cell) lipo packs in series you can use the 36v charger that you have already...you just have to buy a cell monitor and watch the balancing of the cells. nevermind it will weigh 100 pounds less without SLAs and look much better

 

[dnmun]

i don't understand why you can't open it and take a picture. if you can expose the BMS then you can measure the voltages on the cells at the sense wire plug. then you will know something. just total voltage and nothing else doesn't allow you to make a decision.

if it is the O2 micro based BMS then you might be able to make it work again by overcoming the shortcomings of that BMS, but without knowing the voltages at the BMS while charging, no way to even guess.

 

[Lessss]

Hi,
I opened the pack since warranty with Phylion is expired.
The whole pack looks well put together but no real impact protection, just the plastic case.
Total voltage 29V should be reading 37-41V.

Notice the SECOND FUSE inside the case the end user can't reach without opening the case and voiding the warranty. Very bad form on the manufacturers part, all fuses should be user accessible. Pack volts pic need to nbe manually opened as it is too big to show.

Pictures of cells 1 through 10 ( missed taking pic cell 8) below.

Cells 1,3,5 are under death voltage of 2Volts So 3 bad cells.

Tried a single cell LiFePO4 3.7V charger on the 3 cells. 1&3 are so dead they take no charge and just heat up. These 2 cells are now a fire hazard and will need to be removed from the pack.

Cell 5 took volts but collapsed once charger was removed.

No visible damage to the BMS so it looks like the supplier failed to maintain the battery or 3 cells were defective from the manufacturer.

View attachment 4View attachment 1

Phylion refused to sell 3 replacement cells and actually wanted twice as much fro a new pack than what I paid for the first one. no offer to repair the pack themselves.


So anyone got 3 single cells from a pack like this they can part with? Or anyone looking for 7 cells and a BMS?

 

[tres terra bike owner :(]

Hi, I have what is probably a later mode, there is more padding inside, and the cells are mounted in 2 bricks of 5 each. My problem is the cells test fine after sitting for months - 4 volts each, 20 volts per five batteries. Currently they are taking a charge, but like yours, they won't last long.
The problem with these bikes is the darn proprietary equipment used to govern the batteries.
The throttle, controller and battery brain have to all talk nicely, and generations that differ don't. Neat, huh?
so, I suspect the SLA battery Idea won't work with the other electronics on the bike- unless somebody knows how to read'em??
There is a USB port on the battery, any one have any guesses on how to use it?
There is a you tube video of the guy who sold the battery idea to the Chinese ( Mike Fritz ). I am thinking of contacting him.
My batteries are Phylion hi energy Li-ion Battery XH-10Ah3.7V MH29933
Interestingly they come with a warning to not disassemble/replace except by qualified technicians... no phone # tho'
Gonna also try Battery Store.
Will upload Picks when I find my phone camera cable.

Also: the way this thing is set up, there is a card for each cell, that regulates stuff( ouput, input, ect), lots of it, as the designer sold it as a research platform, and they talk to a main board that talks to the charger, and the controller to not blow up the batteries, I guess. Repairing this technology could be fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ZEsbYLCG0