John in CR
100 TW
Like I said before poor cells aren't worth fooling with. Don't you attribute value to your own time?
bringing back makita V limn Konion from zero volts
- Thread starter Matt Gruber
- Start date
Matt Gruber
1 MW
Entertainment is worth lots in my book. Remember my mbike from 2007? Took a BAD SLA with a dead/shorted cell and put it into a boost circuit. Didn't you and others tell me i was wasting my time? That was so much fun, adding 5 mph to my mbike, and watching guys like you eat crow.So you failed to make dubious cells workJohn in CR said:
too bad. Tell me what you did wrong if you want to help. If they weren't wired on an in/out switch.......well there is a mistake right there.John in CR
100 TW
I wasn't a member in 2007 and anything I posted in 2008 is suspect because I was a noob who didn't know squat coming in. For a little perspective, while you were having "fun" playing with dead lead to add 5mph to your ebike, I added 70mph and doubled the range of mine. If piddling with dead batteries is entertaining to you, by all means go for it. Keep in mind though that I'll be riding while you play with your batteries. My goal is absolutely reliable transportation where dead or dieing batteries have no place other than to identify and remove them.
yuyuyak
1 mW
Hello Matt.
I missed this because I'm doing the same thing, I've got over 30 of Doc's Makita packs here. Well, same as in disassembling, charging, etc.
My 0v cells are going into a "suspect" bucket for now, but I also am going to try to spark them up :lol: Right now I've got plenty to do and I'm partially with John, after my pack gets made there will be plenty of time to mess with them, they won't mind sitting at zero a little while longer.
Yeah, I agree about the the nickel tabs on the positive end, what a way to make them. I'm also going to put some plastic underneath them. So many, right out of the pack, tweak the tab slightly, hey, what's them sparks? If you're keeping pairs together as Doc suggests (and it seems to me the best way) I've found that it's best to keep the positive ends paired, cut the negative ends when you must to get them out of the pack. Less of those pesky sparks and less wear & tear of that pretty green insulator near the positive electrode.
To me, the whole job is getting those tabs dressed properly especially because of that. Heck, much of the rest is done by machines.
Which is my segway into what I really wanted to tell you. Initially I was going to buy an ICharger 3010b, pretty nice thing it is, but pricey. Then I downloaded the manual for it and for my usage I just don't think it'll be worth that to me once I get my cells profiled. That's what I mainly wanted it for.
Instead, I got a couple of Arduino's. They can easily be programmed with a few extra components, mainly MOSFET's & load resistors, to be an electronic load. In other words, your program can say "hey, load that cell with a 2 amp load". Or a 8 amp load. All same load resistors, etc., you don't have to change out. Then the Arduino will babysit with the clock, measuring voltages, you can catch up on that TV. I'm going to do that, slowly charging them all now. It will even test internal resistance, perhaps not lab quality, but relatively from one cell to the next it should work pretty well.
So I will post all this when I get it done, but in the meanwhile if you want more details feel free to pm me. Probably you're done by now, but anyhow just in case.
I missed this because I'm doing the same thing, I've got over 30 of Doc's Makita packs here. Well, same as in disassembling, charging, etc.
My 0v cells are going into a "suspect" bucket for now, but I also am going to try to spark them up :lol: Right now I've got plenty to do and I'm partially with John, after my pack gets made there will be plenty of time to mess with them, they won't mind sitting at zero a little while longer.
Yeah, I agree about the the nickel tabs on the positive end, what a way to make them. I'm also going to put some plastic underneath them. So many, right out of the pack, tweak the tab slightly, hey, what's them sparks? If you're keeping pairs together as Doc suggests (and it seems to me the best way) I've found that it's best to keep the positive ends paired, cut the negative ends when you must to get them out of the pack. Less of those pesky sparks and less wear & tear of that pretty green insulator near the positive electrode.
To me, the whole job is getting those tabs dressed properly especially because of that. Heck, much of the rest is done by machines.
Which is my segway into what I really wanted to tell you. Initially I was going to buy an ICharger 3010b, pretty nice thing it is, but pricey. Then I downloaded the manual for it and for my usage I just don't think it'll be worth that to me once I get my cells profiled. That's what I mainly wanted it for.
Instead, I got a couple of Arduino's. They can easily be programmed with a few extra components, mainly MOSFET's & load resistors, to be an electronic load. In other words, your program can say "hey, load that cell with a 2 amp load". Or a 8 amp load. All same load resistors, etc., you don't have to change out. Then the Arduino will babysit with the clock, measuring voltages, you can catch up on that TV. I'm going to do that, slowly charging them all now. It will even test internal resistance, perhaps not lab quality, but relatively from one cell to the next it should work pretty well.
So I will post all this when I get it done, but in the meanwhile if you want more details feel free to pm me. Probably you're done by now, but anyhow just in case.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
Hi yak!
I started with the worst cells so i could learn about them (i have totally reliable transportation, so my new ebike is a hobby ev).
Just finished up my range booster pack. It is an experiment, and yes i enjoy experiments more than riding around.
As for charging, i like old school transformers, and manual control. How many of these new chargers will still work 35 years from now like my truck charger?
BTW i'm using my home stereo from 1972! Still works good, never repaired! And i still mod/ drive my manual shift/steer/stop 1961 Corvette!
Thanks for your reply! Keep posting, ignore guys with a bad attitude.
I started with the worst cells so i could learn about them (i have totally reliable transportation, so my new ebike is a hobby ev).
Just finished up my range booster pack. It is an experiment, and yes i enjoy experiments more than riding around.
As for charging, i like old school transformers, and manual control. How many of these new chargers will still work 35 years from now like my truck charger?
BTW i'm using my home stereo from 1972! Still works good, never repaired! And i still mod/ drive my manual shift/steer/stop 1961 Corvette!
Thanks for your reply! Keep posting, ignore guys with a bad attitude.
yuyuyak
1 mW
'61 Corvette? Wooooo...
Doc's method of using tin foil to charge cells near the same voltage is a good time saver, but I went a different route, mainly because I didn't have a power supply powerful enough to make good use of that idea and again, didn't want to buy one just for that one time use.
Instead I bought a bunch of those $1 Li-ion charging boards from ebay, they work superbly! No guesswork, each battery is taken care of individually and they all end up nearly the same. I have a group of 4 of them with two of the $1 (see a pattern here?) DC buck converters, they'll do 2 amps each easily. And I have a new one here with 12 of the charging boards and 1 DC 12v to whatever buck converters, for $9 it'll supposedly put out 12 amps. Waiting on wire, as with so many things, to finish that. 12 volts, I've got about 75 amps worth of that, so cheaper for me to do the converter thing.
So I still ended up spending $11 on a 4.2v power supply, but at least I don't have to segregate like voltage batteries, and worry about stopping early so some don't get overcharged.
Old school? Here's some old school for ya. 30 amps of that 12 volts is an old, old DC converter out of a 1971 Winnebago. Huge transformer, some ancient diodes (two! half wave) on a heat sink and NO filter cap. Heck, them light bulbs don't care whether it's pulsed DC or not. Regulation? That's achieved by adjusting the load I haven't done it yet, but I'll put a full wave rectifier bridge on it and a big filter cap, voila! It'll do. Weighs about 30 lbs, rated at 30 amps. I've got a new one that looks like a PC supply, weighs maybe a pound and does a nice clean 45 amps. That's quite a difference, it cost $45, if you could still buy the old supply it'd probably cost at least 4X that. It's lived through 6 Mojave Desert summers without a whimper-outside @ 105F everyday. Old school can still work, but the advantages of new tech eventually do make it more attractive IMHO.
I've repaired MANY of that vintage stereo, know them well. Push-pull output configuration, 1 power transistor blows, the whole thing goes lopsided, a bunch of other (expensive) power transistors blow. Almost always because the output got shorted. Otherwise they will work a long time. The caps are probably, well, how's the hum? I cut my electronic teeth on tube amps, that's how far back I go. I know them well too.
Well, think I'll listen to some tunes via bluetooth from my computer to my 2004 6 channel stereo, after I calibrate it to my listening position with the calibration mic
But hey, if it works for you, by all means, whatever's cheapest & easiest is my motto. I can do either.
Doc's method of using tin foil to charge cells near the same voltage is a good time saver, but I went a different route, mainly because I didn't have a power supply powerful enough to make good use of that idea and again, didn't want to buy one just for that one time use.
Instead I bought a bunch of those $1 Li-ion charging boards from ebay, they work superbly! No guesswork, each battery is taken care of individually and they all end up nearly the same. I have a group of 4 of them with two of the $1 (see a pattern here?) DC buck converters, they'll do 2 amps each easily. And I have a new one here with 12 of the charging boards and 1 DC 12v to whatever buck converters, for $9 it'll supposedly put out 12 amps. Waiting on wire, as with so many things, to finish that. 12 volts, I've got about 75 amps worth of that, so cheaper for me to do the converter thing.
So I still ended up spending $11 on a 4.2v power supply, but at least I don't have to segregate like voltage batteries, and worry about stopping early so some don't get overcharged.
Old school? Here's some old school for ya. 30 amps of that 12 volts is an old, old DC converter out of a 1971 Winnebago. Huge transformer, some ancient diodes (two! half wave) on a heat sink and NO filter cap. Heck, them light bulbs don't care whether it's pulsed DC or not. Regulation? That's achieved by adjusting the load
I haven't done it yet, but I'll put a full wave rectifier bridge on it and a big filter cap, voila! It'll do. Weighs about 30 lbs, rated at 30 amps. I've got a new one that looks like a PC supply, weighs maybe a pound and does a nice clean 45 amps. That's quite a difference, it cost $45, if you could still buy the old supply it'd probably cost at least 4X that. It's lived through 6 Mojave Desert summers without a whimper-outside @ 105F everyday. Old school can still work, but the advantages of new tech eventually do make it more attractive IMHO.I've repaired MANY of that vintage stereo, know them well. Push-pull output configuration, 1 power transistor blows, the whole thing goes lopsided, a bunch of other (expensive) power transistors blow. Almost always because the output got shorted. Otherwise they will work a long time. The caps are probably, well, how's the hum? I cut my electronic teeth on tube amps, that's how far back I go. I know them well too.
Well, think I'll listen to some tunes via bluetooth from my computer to my 2004 6 channel stereo, after I calibrate it to my listening position with the calibration mic
But hey, if it works for you, by all means, whatever's cheapest & easiest is my motto. I can do either.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
yak
what voltage do those charging boards charge to? are they adjustable?
.
no hum from my STA-120B, but it did groan for a while. it sounded haunted. been fine last 2 months. i put pandora into it.
.
thanks for your posts!
what voltage do those charging boards charge to? are they adjustable?
.
no hum from my STA-120B, but it did groan for a while. it sounded haunted. been fine last 2 months. i put pandora into it.
.
thanks for your posts!
dnmun
1 PW
it was not a bad attitude. you appeared to be charging lipo cells in cans with a huge charger and had no clue about what you were doing.
i am concerned that we have people who think that they can bulk charge the lipo without any control and if you rent from someone else you should do it outside so you do not damage their property, not your property, from the fire it may cause. if it is your house then you can do what you wish. just do not report the fire to the insurance company.
but it now appears you are charging konions from the title here now so there is less risk of fire from overcharging.
the more fires you people start, then the bigger the risk that insurance companies will act to prevent people from charging their ebikes inside their house or in public spaces.
i am concerned that we have people who think that they can bulk charge the lipo without any control and if you rent from someone else you should do it outside so you do not damage their property, not your property, from the fire it may cause. if it is your house then you can do what you wish. just do not report the fire to the insurance company.
but it now appears you are charging konions from the title here now so there is less risk of fire from overcharging.
the more fires you people start, then the bigger the risk that insurance companies will act to prevent people from charging their ebikes inside their house or in public spaces.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
dnmun
i've been reading the power tool ads, and they claim it recharges in 20 MINUTES
some users say only 15 minutes was needed
i got up to 3 amps on a PAIR. the higher amp chargers might work well on 8p. is 10 amps a worry for you on 8p? 0.83c,
even 25 amps is only 2c, slower than those 15-20 MINUTE chargers. And it is VERY UNLIKELY i'd go that high EVER.
I've learned to leave out critical info from my posts. BEFORE anyone can comment and not make a foolish remark, they have to ask at least 1 question. What is HUGE charging amps? is 0.83c huge? is even my NOT TRIED YET 2C HUGE? If we were talking on the phone, wouldn't you ask before commenting?. Real people don't jump to a conclusion without asking for the facts.
I'm happy to supply the facts, BUT i need to be sure i'm dealing with a real person, that wants to help me with my specific project.
You remind me of my last landloard, 27 years ago. When i told him i was buying a house, he told me YOU CANT AFFORD IT.
Had he asked me if i got a raise, or a new job, or how much i was then making, he would of said,
YOU CAN AFFORD THAT HOUSE AND A 4 CAR GARAGE TOO.
i've been reading the power tool ads, and they claim it recharges in 20 MINUTES
some users say only 15 minutes was needed
i got up to 3 amps on a PAIR. the higher amp chargers might work well on 8p. is 10 amps a worry for you on 8p? 0.83c,
even 25 amps is only 2c, slower than those 15-20 MINUTE chargers. And it is VERY UNLIKELY i'd go that high EVER.
I've learned to leave out critical info from my posts. BEFORE anyone can comment and not make a foolish remark, they have to ask at least 1 question. What is HUGE charging amps? is 0.83c huge? is even my NOT TRIED YET 2C HUGE? If we were talking on the phone, wouldn't you ask before commenting?. Real people don't jump to a conclusion without asking for the facts.
I'm happy to supply the facts, BUT i need to be sure i'm dealing with a real person, that wants to help me with my specific project.
You remind me of my last landloard, 27 years ago. When i told him i was buying a house, he told me YOU CANT AFFORD IT.
Had he asked me if i got a raise, or a new job, or how much i was then making, he would of said,
YOU CAN AFFORD THAT HOUSE AND A 4 CAR GARAGE TOO.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
UPDATE
remember 11-20-13 i took recovered cells and put them into tools
the 3s1p in the drill is still 12.07v and it removed a dozen screws, not recharged yet.
the 2 drivers dropped to 3.9v and i recharged 11-30to 4.10, today 12-11 they are 4.08 and 4.06 So the suggestion in the es archives that they continue to improve with more cycles bears merit.
the flashlight still works great and i use it daily, not recharged yet.
.
i took 2 more cells out of the junk pile, pretending to need them. these i had said were shorted, but that was NOT true. they are now upgraded to the R pile. r is for RUNT.
I've been streaming episodes of FLASH GORDEN from 2007. 9 so far, so i'm not just wasting time on old cells!
Also i rebalanced my retirement account! This keeps up my income so i can do whatever i please!
remember 11-20-13 i took recovered cells and put them into tools
the 3s1p in the drill is still 12.07v and it removed a dozen screws, not recharged yet.
the 2 drivers dropped to 3.9v and i recharged 11-30to 4.10, today 12-11 they are 4.08 and 4.06 So the suggestion in the es archives that they continue to improve with more cycles bears merit.
the flashlight still works great and i use it daily, not recharged yet.
.
i took 2 more cells out of the junk pile, pretending to need them. these i had said were shorted, but that was NOT true. they are now upgraded to the R pile. r is for RUNT.
I've been streaming episodes of FLASH GORDEN from 2007. 9 so far, so i'm not just wasting time on old cells!
Also i rebalanced my retirement account! This keeps up my income so i can do whatever i please!
999zip999
100 TW
Don't mix the cells with the Vet. Put the konion cells outside now. They can catch fire. They have been returned because of a problem. I have had 50 packs and some will catch fire just out of the makita drill container with no help.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
I modify them so they can't short. If anyone wants to know what i do, just ask!
cassschr1
10 kW
Ok I'm asking :lol:
Matt Gruber
1 MW
Thanks for the Q.cassschr1 said:
I'm using the makita tool battery case to hold the cells. I have not seen anyone doing this.
The mod is to the case so it won't pinch and short. Unless anyone is using the case, i'm "wasting my time" as John puts it, to give more details.
anyone using a restored pack inthe case?
docnjoj
1 GW
I've done this with Fatpacks for about 4 years. I take out the circuit boards and just use the cases for the cells. No problems. One circuit board goes into the charger and then I can charge 6 Fatpacks in parallel. I guess I would do this with Makitas if I ever get some. It is just that the fatpacks have 10S 2P, thus many more cells. I believe the newer Sonys or Panasonics have about 16a/h per cell?
otherDoc
otherDoc
cassschr1
10 kW
Doc , re read your post above. Is it saying what you wanted?
docnjoj
1 GW
I think so. Do you notice any errors?
otherDoc
Oops. How about 16 wh per cell for some of the newer types of cells..
otherDoc
Oops. How about 16 wh per cell for some of the newer types of cells..
cassschr1
10 kW
5S2P per pack is correct I think, but maybe not.
yuyuyak
1 mW
Sorry Matt, I've been busy doing you know what. I'm almost done charging all batteries.
Yeah, that is the Achilles heel of those charging boards IMHO, they are rated to charge to 4.11 to 4.21. And in my experience that's what they do, highest I get from a bank of 16 of them is 4.19, lowest is about 4.12, most are at 4.15-4.17. They have a resistor you can change to adjust current rate, they come at 1 amp stock. I wish they had something similar for max voltage.
But for this purpose, I'm ok with what they do, can't have everything. No muss, no fuss, when the light says it's done it is. Many reviews of them on the web, they do an excellent job except for that small annoyance. CC, CV, even very slow buildup for undervolted cells (like you're doing?)
No reverse polarity protection, if you stick the battery in backwards the chip smokes instantly. Have smoked 4 of them in the last couple of weeks. But it's pretty rare to find chargers with reverse protection. Buy a few extra.
I've been using the original bank of 4 for about a year for other li-ion stuff I was doing, great. I just buy the $1.50 4 slot 18650 battery holders, they are touchy to work with but do the job. You have to remove the (must be like 28 ga.) silly wires that come with them and attach something more substantial, I use 18 or 22 ga. The rivets in the plastic are very sensitive to heat so you gotta be fast. Oh yeah, and then those holders are designed to series the batteries, so you have to chop the connections that do that, to make each slot independent.
Yeah, that is the Achilles heel of those charging boards IMHO, they are rated to charge to 4.11 to 4.21. And in my experience that's what they do, highest I get from a bank of 16 of them is 4.19, lowest is about 4.12, most are at 4.15-4.17. They have a resistor you can change to adjust current rate, they come at 1 amp stock. I wish they had something similar for max voltage.
But for this purpose, I'm ok with what they do, can't have everything. No muss, no fuss, when the light says it's done it is. Many reviews of them on the web, they do an excellent job except for that small annoyance. CC, CV, even very slow buildup for undervolted cells (like you're doing?)
No reverse polarity protection, if you stick the battery in backwards the chip smokes instantly. Have smoked 4 of them in the last couple of weeks. But it's pretty rare to find chargers with reverse protection. Buy a few extra.
I've been using the original bank of 4 for about a year for other li-ion stuff I was doing, great. I just buy the $1.50 4 slot 18650 battery holders, they are touchy to work with but do the job. You have to remove the (must be like 28 ga.) silly wires that come with them and attach something more substantial, I use 18 or 22 ga. The rivets in the plastic are very sensitive to heat so you gotta be fast. Oh yeah, and then those holders are designed to series the batteries, so you have to chop the connections that do that, to make each slot independent.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
yak
i did read about $1 boards and the price is LOW for what it does.
But, i tested Konions in series and found that they do in fact self balance, as long as they are within 0.15 volts. BUT if a cell is way out, 3.85v and others are 4.15 FORGET it :| (charge that 3.85 by hand and it is fine)
So my plan is to monitor cruise/accel volts with a DVM at the end of each ride. and write it down. If the string develops an abnormal drop of 1/2 to 1 volt, i'll check for a weak cell pair and balance it or replace it if it gets annoying. I will only add balance wires to cells that NEED IT!
i did read about $1 boards and the price is LOW for what it does.
But, i tested Konions in series and found that they do in fact self balance, as long as they are within 0.15 volts. BUT if a cell is way out, 3.85v and others are 4.15 FORGET it :| (charge that 3.85 by hand and it is fine)
So my plan is to monitor cruise/accel volts with a DVM at the end of each ride. and write it down. If the string develops an abnormal drop of 1/2 to 1 volt, i'll check for a weak cell pair and balance it or replace it if it gets annoying. I will only add balance wires to cells that NEED IT!
999zip999
100 TW
I put a 6s balance wires with plug for a cellog's. sure made it easier.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
yakyuyuyak said:
do they isolate? I guess they do. Can a 10s string use one 5v charger? That is a nice trick!
My concern is what happens when one fails? Does it overcharge?
NOW, if it would work with a psu set to 4.20, then it could not overcharge, but the ones i've seen say 4.5v minimum input.
There are reports in the es archives that confirm konions self balance, so i don't see the point in using a balance board for good cells unless you go for high DOD. BUT for RUNTS this could be a great way to keep them in service, for those not concerned with increased fire risk.
The problem with automatic balance methods is they usually have to be left charging for a very long time; hours and hours, and a 4.12 to 4.19 range is FAR WORSE than letting them self balance. My tests showed a much closer range, like .03 within 3 cycles, was .11 on 1st charge, down to .03 variance on 3rd. ES reports say .01-.02 variance is common after numerous charges.
Ypedal
100 TW
This is not quite true, or very accurate of a statement, it's been debated at length but my findings are that these cells are very consistent, have very little variances, once charged, matched, and assembled into a working pack, they TEND to remain balanced extremely well..
If you over-charge them above 4.20v, they tend to drop back down on their own, but this should not be considered " balancing ", exactly how it's done is beyond my understanding of the chemistry but any significant differences between cells in a pack will not adjust themselves... a few mah over countless cycles maybe, but nothing more.
Matt Gruber
1 MW
Ypedal
my test was 3 unequal cells only charged to 12.18v, i did not try to even them up for the test. i was a bit surprised by the results! But that is what guys said in the archives. Of course it was hotly debated, that is WHY i had to see it for myself. The 2 cells above 4.00v got much closer, and the way low cell stayed way low.
BUT my small test should not be used by others! Combined with the archives, i concluded my project would not benefit by a balance circuit; others should let their research and tests be their guide. Anyone going for high DOD should use a balance circuit IMO.
My balance method is ME, like driving a stick, i check the tach and make the shifts. My cells will not go far out, it is impossible, ME watching the DVM at the end of each ride, it just can't drop an extra 1/2- 1.00v without me finding out why. Rather than rely on a logic circuit to fix a runt cell, i will take that cell out and put in a good cell. Also I've read that Bosch, using the same type cells, does NOT use a BMS in their power tools, so why should I? Watching the DVM will inform me of any problems. Also i want to have my cells last a very long time, users say up to 10 years, so i need to store them around 3.8v, what bms will do that?
my test was 3 unequal cells only charged to 12.18v, i did not try to even them up for the test. i was a bit surprised by the results! But that is what guys said in the archives. Of course it was hotly debated, that is WHY i had to see it for myself. The 2 cells above 4.00v got much closer, and the way low cell stayed way low.
BUT my small test should not be used by others! Combined with the archives, i concluded my project would not benefit by a balance circuit; others should let their research and tests be their guide. Anyone going for high DOD should use a balance circuit IMO.
My balance method is ME, like driving a stick, i check the tach and make the shifts. My cells will not go far out, it is impossible, ME watching the DVM at the end of each ride, it just can't drop an extra 1/2- 1.00v without me finding out why. Rather than rely on a logic circuit to fix a runt cell, i will take that cell out and put in a good cell. Also I've read that Bosch, using the same type cells, does NOT use a BMS in their power tools, so why should I? Watching the DVM will inform me of any problems. Also i want to have my cells last a very long time, users say up to 10 years, so i need to store them around 3.8v, what bms will do that?
Matt Gruber
1 MW
so i charged up 2 more from the junk pile. i'm pleased that 50% come back to life from months at zero.
after a month i put one in my Wen driver. took out 2 nicad, put in 1 runt. sure perked up this pocket driver. from 150 to 225 rpm. this tool only weighs 18 ounces! It works better than new, even with a runt that lost 0.1v in a month.
the other tool runts have stopped self-discharging as far as i can tell. they just needed some exercise.
after a month i put one in my Wen driver. took out 2 nicad, put in 1 runt. sure perked up this pocket driver. from 150 to 225 rpm. this tool only weighs 18 ounces! It works better than new, even with a runt that lost 0.1v in a month.
the other tool runts have stopped self-discharging as far as i can tell. they just needed some exercise.
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